Tensions in Calvin’s Idea of Predestination

[praise_yeshua]

You said " Even thought requires order. Sequence. Cause and effect."

I disagree because it not always does. When you multitask things often blurr to the point of no order.
A decision has to be made and if you chose to un multitask. Fine... You will be back to order.

In a case like I am... I just keep the multitaking up until all is done.

Same with replying to differing threads and subjects in different forum.

It is more of a balancing act.

Wrong order imo...
You
The willingness of Christ alone requires the willingness of the creature.

Agreed, but there would be no need for "willingness" when the creature hass come to seek themselves. Then the Willingness of Christ acts

You
If Jesus Christ was predetermined, God's choice above all, then all things must answer to that choice.

You are not a trin are you? I need to start a score card.

There is no argument . Jesus WAS predetermined. As the messiah, what do you think was the reason he was sent?
Yes, all things must answer to that choice for that reason..... Either with a for as we have seen, Jesus came only for the lost sheep of Israel... and not all of them fell into line. The offer was made, the reasons for the offer were explained and still some said no due to inability to understand or due to what they preferred.

I do not expect you to understand.

You
Divinity requires sequential thought when an opposing will is variable.

This requires no comment.... DUH.

I noticed your signature.

When God was planning and predestined Jesus Christ to make man in His own Image and after His own likeness....

Did God have your personally "in mind". I believe your signature would require this.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Even when you multitask those thoughts themselves have order. It is called concurrent processing. However, there is no such thing as thoughts without sequence. Cause and effect. I know, I build things.

I did. I used to fabricate window treatments and things for the home,,, as wwell as many a cornice board I constructed and installed my own work.

But right now this afternoon I have, aside from replies here, and elsewhere, attempted unsuccessfully to handle a printer problem at the same time because I need something printed from the printer and it is not happening today, during this time I was researching for a trip I am planning. So while I am posting here, and got one sentence I concurrently was looking up mileage from Forge Road to Lorton VA and pulling up what I could from HO about what may be wrong with the printer that once again went off line and today would not come back only to believe now it is verizons fault because HP said wifi direct has been temporarily deactivated because you wifi network is currently useing a restricted 5 Ghz cahnnel 132 (DFS).Because this channel is used by radar systems . WIFI Direct is unable to operate using this channel in the printer. And while all this is simultaneously going on and I am tryig to type one though while thinking about others like routes, and such my main laptop
screen went black while using . Then it came back and I turned away and when I turned back it was black again.

So you tell me about my thoughts and what sequence was there when 4 things were being thought at once.

Without order of events, there is no process. It is called chaos.

But you do not have to have a systematic process to avoid chaos.

Nope. You maybe fast but there is always an order of events. I know. I build things.

Ah, well,.... I wont fight you anymore... I am going to go make dinner now.

Balance requires order. 1,2,3,4,5,6 Even concurrent acts must be reassembled in order.



Can you rephrase. I don't understand.

I don't understand you.

Yes. I know it better than most anyone else.



To make man in God's likeness and after His image. I think I've already said this.



Then why do you insist that God's thought have no order?

This I see as God being very orderly

Gen 1

In Gen 1

The First Day
3And God said, “Let there be light,

The Second Day
6And God said, “Let there be an expanse ~ 8God called the expanse “sky.”

The Third Day
9“Let the waters under the sky be gathered into one place, 10God called the dry land “earth,” and the gathering of waters He called “seas.” 11Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth vegetation:

The Fourth Day
14And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky
16God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night. And He made the stars as well.

The Fifth Day
20And God said, “Let the waters teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth

The Sixth Day
24And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds:

TO THIS POINT IT WAS ALL NICE AND ORDERLY.

light
sky
waters and dry land
vegetation
more light
waters with life and birds in the air
and living creatures for the earth

ORDERLY

AND THEN

26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness,
27male and female He created them.
28God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth
29Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every seed-bearing plant on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit contains seed. They will be yours for food
Show me the orderliness in Gen 2, picking up after the 7th day.
4This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created,

5Now no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth, nor had any plant, no man to cultivate the ground.

NOTE: IN GEN 1 EVERYTHING WAS MADE AND GROWING BEFORE GOD MADE MAN AND WOMAN. THE SEAS WERE STOCKED, THE BIRDS IN THE AIR WERE FLYING, THE BEASTS OF THE FIELD WERE MADE AND THEN CAME THE MAN AND THE WOMAN.

6 But springsc welled up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.

STILL AT THIS POINT NOTHING IS GROWING, THERE ARE NO FISH BIRDS OR ANIMALS.

NOW
7Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.

AFTER THE MAN IS FORMED AND GOD BREATHED LIFE INTO HIM HE GOES AND PLANTS A GARDEN FOR THE MAN TO LIVE IN... NOT THE ENTIRE EARTH....

8And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, where He placed the man He had formed.

9 Out of the ground the LORD God gave growth to every tree that is pleasing to the eye and good for food. And in the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

AND THROUGH VERSE 10 THROUGH 14 WE HEAR OF THE RIVERS AND WHY THEY ARE SPECIAL

15Then the LORD God took the man and placed him in the Garden of Eden to cultivate and keep it.

BY HIMSELF

16And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden,

17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil;

18The LORD God also said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make for him a suitable helper.”

19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and He brought them to the man to see what he would name each one. And whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

20 But for Adam no suitable helper was found.

21So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he slept, He took one of the man’s ribs and closed up the area with flesh.

22And from the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man, He made a woman and brought her to him

23And the man said:

“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’

IN GEN 1 WE HAD AN ORDERLY START TO THINGS WITH GOD MAKING MAN AND WOMAN AT THE END OF
ALL PLANT AND ANIMAL LIFE. THEY WERE TOLD TO GO CARE FOR IT AND THE EARTH AND TO MULTIPLY.

IN GEN 2 WE HAVE

no shrub yet but a mention of springs
nothing is growing yet. no fish, birds or animals
then God made man and breathed life into him
finally he made the garden in Eden
and THEN put the man there.
And God caused the trees to grow, including the ones forbidden
And God told the man to cultivate the garden
And he told the man he could eat of every tree except
the tree of knowledge of good and evil

then God knew he needed a helper
So he brought all the animals, and birds for the man to name
BUT no helper was found for him

So God caused him to fall asleep and took a rib.
And formed a woman from the man's rib
And Adam called her woman, for she was taken from man

NOT EXACTLY THE NICE ORDER OF GEN 1

Gen 1 and the first couple were told to tend the earth, to multiply, and that they were allowed to eat of the plants and trees with NO exception.

Gen 2 and the man was placed in a specially made garden just for him , and God was going to allow him to name and pick an animal or bird to be his helper, and when none was found created a woman from the mans rib. He was told to eat of all the trees, just not the one of Good and Evil.

The difference is, aside from telling the man to cultivate the garden, they could eat of any tree but the one of good and evil.

Adam and Eve were treated entirely differently from the first couple.

Adam had life breathed into him. There was no mention of this when God simply said Let us make man in our image and he made them... at the same time.

And the fact there was not a 7th day to be rest and kept holy in Gen 1 leads me further to believe that Gen 2 is an entirely different story being tied together or trying to with Gen 1 and we have no real way of knowing the timing of either.

Both Gen 1 and 2 are from God and His work. Moreso even in chapter 2, but it is written as if there is no order.
Yet we are told 4This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created,

I suppose a case can be made that God saw to it Gen 1 was orderly.... but let Moses not carry the same feel int 2.

I got to go before I burn the meatballs.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I noticed your signature.

When God was planning and predestined Jesus Christ to make man in His own Image and after His own likeness....

Did God have your personally "in mind". I believe your signature would require this.

" God knew the name of everyone who would accept the remedy so He knew who would accept. He knew not all would accept. Then there still is free will involved? YES!!!!!

Why?

I am not a predestined anyone that he would have me singled out for such a thing as salvation or given an important task to do.

Maybe this can better explain my feelings.

Redemption is not meant to be obvious. It is a test of vision, a challenge to awaken and seek Him. We are not meant to be passive spectators waiting for God to redeem with supernatural miracles. (Or by predestination) We are called to study His word, recognize the signs, and take part in the redemption He is revealing.
( This was borrowed from Israel365 Inspiration as it far better explains my beliefs then even I can myself)

As I said, in my free will thinking that God because of his foreknowledge knew those who would accept what faith had to offer
by their seeing and hearing and study and those people he knew/knows the names of.... Not just me. After all He is Our Heavenly Father,
Right?

Tomorrow, God willing I will change my signature to these thoughts from 365.

 

[praise_yeshua]

" God knew the name of everyone who would accept the remedy so He knew who would accept. He knew not all would accept. Then there still is free will involved? YES!!!!!

Why?

Prove it. Provide a reference to one single named man that was foreknown. Only Jesus Christ was foreknown. This nonsense that exists relative C.S. Lewis is preposterous. Why do you follow C.S. Lewis?

I am not a predestined anyone that he would have me singled out for such a thing as salvation or given an important task to do.

Maybe this can better explain my feelings.

Redemption is not meant to be obvious. It is a test of vision, a challenge to awaken and seek Him. We are not meant to be passive spectators waiting for God to redeem with supernatural miracles. (Or by predestination) We are called to study His word, recognize the signs, and take part in the redemption He is revealing.
( This was borrowed from Israel365 Inspiration as it far better explains my beliefs then even I can myself)

As I said, in my free will thinking that God because of his foreknowledge knew those who would accept what faith had to offer
by their seeing and hearing and study and those people he knew/knows the names of.... Not just me. After all He is Our Heavenly Father,
Right?

Tomorrow, God willing I will change my signature to these thoughts from 365.

I see inconsistencies in your position. I always have seen such in Anglicans and Arminians. C.S. Lewis began this concept that Eternity has already happened, thusly, God knows everything. It is preposterous.

Eternal things are without end.

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Eph 3:21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

God doesn't end. Not matter how you try to make the doctrine of C.S. Lewis your own, it is a failing position. It limits God. There is no end to God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I did. I used to fabricate window treatments and things for the home,,, as wwell as many a cornice board I constructed and installed my own work.

But right now this afternoon I have, aside from replies here, and elsewhere, attempted unsuccessfully to handle a printer problem at the same time because I need something printed from the printer and it is not happening today, during this time I was researching for a trip I am planning. So while I am posting here, and got one sentence I concurrently was looking up mileage from Forge Road to Lorton VA and pulling up what I could from HO about what may be wrong with the printer that once again went off line and today would not come back only to believe now it is verizons fault because HP said wifi direct has been temporarily deactivated because you wifi network is currently useing a restricted 5 Ghz cahnnel 132 (DFS).Because this channel is used by radar systems . WIFI Direct is unable to operate using this channel in the printer. And while all this is simultaneously going on and I am tryig to type one though while thinking about others like routes, and such my main laptop
screen went black while using . Then it came back and I turned away and when I turned back it was black again.

So you tell me about my thoughts and what sequence was there when 4 things were being thought at once.


But you do not have to have a systematic process to avoid chaos.


Ah, well,.... I wont fight you anymore... I am going to go make dinner now.

I'm going to break this apart. I appreciate you responding in detail but the responses are getting too long to my liking. If I miss something meaningful, please remind me.

I like debates. They solve problems. Calling it a "fight" doesn't bother me. That is what it is at times. A battle of words.

I'm an technology professional. I've meet very few people that were as good as I am at it. Not bragging. Just the truth. Not trying to gain any favor from saying it. WIFI direct error messages are often not meaningful. Happens all the time. You're getting the error within the context of operations where the actual error isn't considered. It is basically defaulting to the last error message that isn't meaningful. Happens all the time to programmers that don't know how to write a debugging process that can meaningful relate all error conditions. There are many reasons for this. I could name a few off the top of my heads but you're oversimplifying. Most everyone does.

While you have been "thinking" concurrently, you're actually acting sequentially. You might even try to pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time but you're really not doing it concurrently. Patting requires movement that isn't identical to rubbing. The demands of progression in varying motions even with identical hands, nerve impulses, and brain signals requires variance wherein they can not happen simultaneously. Even your mind is working sequentially.

Your mind thinks it is working concurrently. It isn't. You maybe faster than some but slower than others.

If you break this down to cause and effect. There is no effect/result without cause. All the variances in motion and etc doesn't matter. One must be before the other.