Secret, invisible coming?

[SteveB]

A user/poster has a favorite phrase they like using, in what often comes across as derogatory.

"There is no secret, invisible coming" of Jesus.

I actually agree.

As the passages referenced were included in the Bible when Isaiah 26 was written, some 2780 years ago, and when 1 Thessalonians was written, some 1960-70 years ago, and were also included in the gospels....
It ceased being a secret 2000 years ago.
So to use such a phrase, or similar to it is foolishness.
The idea that it's a secret is foolishness.
The idea that it's invisible is also foolishness.

The moment that the harpadzo/rapiemur/rapture was documented, it ceased being secret.

Furthermore, this idea of invisible misses the plainly stated idea that Jesus is coming to meet his followers in the clouds.

1Th 4:16-17 WEB 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, 17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.

There's nothing invisible about it.
Jesus followers will be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

1Co 15:51-53 WEB 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

We who follow Jesus will be changed.

We will be housing corruptible/perishable bodies, and then we will be housing incorruptible/perishable bodies.

So, there's nothing invisible about it.
This is for the followers of Jesus. Not the rest of the world/human race.
To the unbelieving people, we who follow Jesus shall be changed.


In what the church has taken to call- the "second coming" of Jesus (a phrase not found in the Bible either), Jesus actually sets foot on the Mt. of Olives, splitting the mountain in half.
He comes in the clouds with the armies of heaven.

The "second coming" is an event every eye shall see.

Mar 14:60-63 WEB 60 The high priest stood up in the middle, and asked Jesus, “Have you no answer? What is it which these testify against you?” 61 But he stayed quiet, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” 62 Jesus said, “I am. You will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of the sky.” 63 The high priest tore his clothes and said, “What further need have we of witnesses?



Rev 1:7 WEB Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, including those who pierced him. All the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 19:14 WEB The armies which are in heaven, clothed in white, pure, fine linen, followed him on white horses.

In Luke 21, Jesus is describing the gruesomeness of the tribulation period. As he's winding down his description, he states....


Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
For those who believe that the tribulation ends at the rapture, the question must be asked here....
Why would Jesus want us to escape what's coming on the earth, if the second coming happens simultaneously with the rapture?
According to Daniel 12,
Dan 12:11-12 WEB 11 “From the time that the continual burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate set up, there will be one thousand two hundred ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days.
according to Zechariah 14,
Zec 14:3-4 WEB 3 Then Yahweh will go out and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, making a very great valley. Half of the mountain will move toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Joel 3
Joe 3:2 WEB I will gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will execute judgment on them there for my people, and for my heritage, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations. They have divided my land,
Based on the Daniel 12 passage, from the time that Jesus sets foot on the earth, in Zechariah 14, there will be a 45 day period of judgment on the nations, as described in Matthew 25.
Based on Joel 3, and Matthew 25, it'll take place in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, east of Jerusalem in Israel. We often refer to it as the brook of kidron.

Valley of Josaphat · Jerusalem

âââââ · Schlucht

maps.app.goo.gl

So...

Nothing secret, and nothing invisible about the harpadzo.

 

[SteveB]

In light of the fact this person views the harpadzo occurring simultaneously with the second coming, and Jesus warns us to pray always to be accounted worthy to escape all that's coming, the one thing I'm seeing that's coming on the earth following the second coming is 45 days of judgment and then the 1000 years of Jesus as King on earth.

So....

What are we to pray to escape? The Millennium?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

In light of the fact this person views the harpadzo occurring simultaneously with the second coming, and Jesus warns us to pray always to be accounted worthy to escape all that's coming, the one thing I'm seeing that's coming on the earth following the second coming is 45 days of judgment and then the 1000 years of Jesus as King on earth.

So....

What are we to pray to escape? The Millennium?

The day of the Lord's Wrath.

 

[SteveB]

The day of the Lord's Wrath.

So, how long is this day?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

To give more detail: Revelation 6, Jesus returns and the great day of the Lord's wrath is about to begin:

12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the [m]commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

The Great Tribulation has been cut short, and with the return of Jesus, the wrath is about to begin. But first, the 144,000 are sealed to be protected from God's wrath (Revelation 7). At the same time, the rapture occurs:

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,

“Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying,

“Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Then the wrath of the Day of the Lord begins.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Just to make this more clear, here's a parallel between Matthew 24 and Revelation 6,7:

To give more detail: Revelation 6, Jesus returns and the great day of the Lord's wrath is about to begin:

Matthew 24:29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

== Revelation 6:12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Matthew 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn

== Revelation 6:15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no ]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

The Great Tribulation has been cut short, and with the return of Jesus, the wrath is about to begin. But first, the 144,000 are sealed to be protected from God's wrath (Revelation 7). At the same time, the rapture occurs:

Matthew 24:31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Here are the elect from the four winds:

== Revelation 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Then the Day of the Lord's wrath begins.

 

[TomL]

A user/poster has a favorite phrase they like using, in what often comes across as derogatory.

"There is no secret, invisible coming" of Jesus.

I actually agree.

As the passages referenced were included in the Bible when Isaiah 26 was written, some 2780 years ago, and when 1 Thessalonians was written, some 1960-70 years ago, and were also included in the gospels....
It ceased being a secret 2000 years ago.
So to use such a phrase, or similar to it is foolishness.
The idea that it's a secret is foolishness.
The idea that it's invisible is also foolishness.

The moment that the harpadzo/rapiemur/rapture was documented, it ceased being secret.

Furthermore, this idea of invisible misses the plainly stated idea that Jesus is coming to meet his followers in the clouds.

1Th 4:16-17 WEB 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, 17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.

There's nothing invisible about it.
Jesus followers will be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

1Co 15:51-53 WEB 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

We who follow Jesus will be changed.

We will be housing corruptible/perishable bodies, and then we will be housing incorruptible/perishable bodies.

So, there's nothing invisible about it.
This is for the followers of Jesus. Not the rest of the world/human race.
To the unbelieving people, we who follow Jesus shall be changed.


In what the church has taken to call- the "second coming" of Jesus (a phrase not found in the Bible either), Jesus actually sets foot on the Mt. of Olives, splitting the mountain in half.
He comes in the clouds with the armies of heaven.

The "second coming" is an event every eye shall see.

Mar 14:60-63 WEB 60 The high priest stood up in the middle, and asked Jesus, “Have you no answer? What is it which these testify against you?” 61 But he stayed quiet, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” 62 Jesus said, “I am. You will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of the sky.” 63 The high priest tore his clothes and said, “What further need have we of witnesses?



Rev 1:7 WEB Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, including those who pierced him. All the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 19:14 WEB The armies which are in heaven, clothed in white, pure, fine linen, followed him on white horses.

In Luke 21, Jesus is describing the gruesomeness of the tribulation period. As he's winding down his description, he states....


Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
For those who believe that the tribulation ends at the rapture, the question must be asked here....
Why would Jesus want us to escape what's coming on the earth, if the second coming happens simultaneously with the rapture?
According to Daniel 12,
Dan 12:11-12 WEB 11 “From the time that the continual burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate set up, there will be one thousand two hundred ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days.
according to Zechariah 14,
Zec 14:3-4 WEB 3 Then Yahweh will go out and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, making a very great valley. Half of the mountain will move toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Joel 3
Joe 3:2 WEB I will gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will execute judgment on them there for my people, and for my heritage, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations. They have divided my land,
Based on the Daniel 12 passage, from the time that Jesus sets foot on the earth, in Zechariah 14, there will be a 45 day period of judgment on the nations, as described in Matthew 25.
Based on Joel 3, and Matthew 25, it'll take place in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, east of Jerusalem in Israel. We often refer to it as the brook of kidron.

Valley of Josaphat · Jerusalem

âââââ · Schlucht

maps.app.goo.gl

So...

Nothing secret, and nothing invisible about the harpadzo.

That is why dispensational premillenialism has a problem. It teaches there is a coming of Christ where he is not seen and believers suddenly disappear from the earth. This coming is before the tribulation and 7 years before the second coming which is at the last day. This coming is visible, it brings resurrection and ushers in the new heaven and earth and it marks the end of Christ reign as per 1cor 15:22ff

BTW accortding to Matthew 25

Matthew 25:31–46 (NASB 2020) — 31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. ......................................’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Christs coming will assign to all their eternal destiny

There is no earthly millenium with mortal beings here

 

[TomL]

The day of the Lord's Wrath.

In light of the fact this person views the harpadzo occurring simultaneously with the second coming, and Jesus warns us to pray always to be accounted worthy to escape all that's coming, the one thing I'm seeing that's coming on the earth following the second coming is 45 days of judgment and then the 1000 years of Jesus as King on earth.

So....

What are we to pray to escape? The Millennium?

There is no millenium at Christ's second advent. There is the eternal judgment and the New heavens and the earth

Matthew 25:31–33 (NASB 2020) — 31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left....
Matthew 25:46 (NASB 2020) — 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

2 Peter 3:10–13 (KJV 1900) — 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[TomL]

1Co 15:51-53 WEB 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

We who follow Jesus will be changed.

We will be housing corruptible/perishable bodies, and then we will be housing incorruptible/perishable bodies.

Um there is no millennium then

1 Corinthians 15:22–57 (KJV 1900) — 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. ....................... 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Christ's reign ends not begins at that point

And according to the above passage, Christ's reign began before his second advent - For he must reign until death the last enemy is defeated

 

[TomL]

A user/poster has a favorite phrase they like using, in what often comes across as derogatory.

"There is no secret, invisible coming" of Jesus.

I actually agree.

As the passages referenced were included in the Bible when Isaiah 26 was written, some 2780 years ago, and when 1 Thessalonians was written, some 1960-70 years ago, and were also included in the gospels....
It ceased being a secret 2000 years ago.
So to use such a phrase, or similar to it is foolishness.
The idea that it's a secret is foolishness.
The idea that it's invisible is also foolishness.

The moment that the harpadzo/rapiemur/rapture was documented, it ceased being secret.

Furthermore, this idea of invisible misses the plainly stated idea that Jesus is coming to meet his followers in the clouds.

1Th 4:16-17 WEB 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, 17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.

There's nothing invisible about it.
Jesus followers will be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

1Co 15:51-53 WEB 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

We who follow Jesus will be changed.

We will be housing corruptible/perishable bodies, and then we will be housing incorruptible/perishable bodies.

So, there's nothing invisible about it.
This is for the followers of Jesus. Not the rest of the world/human race.
To the unbelieving people, we who follow Jesus shall be changed.


In what the church has taken to call- the "second coming" of Jesus (a phrase not found in the Bible either), Jesus actually sets foot on the Mt. of Olives, splitting the mountain in half.
He comes in the clouds with the armies of heaven.

The "second coming" is an event every eye shall see.

Mar 14:60-63 WEB 60 The high priest stood up in the middle, and asked Jesus, “Have you no answer? What is it which these testify against you?” 61 But he stayed quiet, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” 62 Jesus said, “I am. You will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of the sky.” 63 The high priest tore his clothes and said, “What further need have we of witnesses?



Rev 1:7 WEB Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, including those who pierced him. All the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 19:14 WEB The armies which are in heaven, clothed in white, pure, fine linen, followed him on white horses.

In Luke 21, Jesus is describing the gruesomeness of the tribulation period. As he's winding down his description, he states....


Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
For those who believe that the tribulation ends at the rapture, the question must be asked here....
Why would Jesus want us to escape what's coming on the earth, if the second coming happens simultaneously with the rapture?
According to Daniel 12,
Dan 12:11-12 WEB 11 “From the time that the continual burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate set up, there will be one thousand two hundred ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days.
according to Zechariah 14,
Zec 14:3-4 WEB 3 Then Yahweh will go out and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, making a very great valley. Half of the mountain will move toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Joel 3
Joe 3:2 WEB I will gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will execute judgment on them there for my people, and for my heritage, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations. They have divided my land,
Based on the Daniel 12 passage, from the time that Jesus sets foot on the earth, in Zechariah 14, there will be a 45 day period of judgment on the nations, as described in Matthew 25.
Based on Joel 3, and Matthew 25, it'll take place in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, east of Jerusalem in Israel. We often refer to it as the brook of kidron.

Valley of Josaphat · Jerusalem

âââââ · Schlucht

maps.app.goo.gl

So...

Nothing secret, and nothing invisible about the harpadzo.

Pretribulational Premillennialism (or Dispensational Premillennialism): Another variety of premillennialism has gained widespread popularity in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, particularly in the United Kingdom and the United States. According to this position, Christ will return not only before the millennium (Christ’s return is premillennial), but also it will occur before the great tribulation (Christ’s return is pretribulational). This position is similar to the classical premillennial position mentioned above, but with one important difference: it will add another return of Christ before his return to reign on earth in the millennium. This return is thought to be a secret return of Christ to take believers out of the world. The pretribulational premillennial view may be represented as in figure 55.4.



Pretribulational Premillennialism
Figure 55.4




According to this view, the church age will continue until, suddenly, unexpectedly, and secretly, Christ will return part way to earth, and then will call believers to himself:


Wayne A. Grudem, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine (Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; Zondervan Pub. House, 2004), 1112–1113.

 

[TomL]

RAPTURE

Catching up of believers by Christ at the time of His return (1 Thess. 4:17). Premillennialism sees a tribulation period immediately before the second coming of Christ. Pre-tribulationists see the rapture occurring prior to the tribulation with the church in heaven during the tribulation on earth. Mid-tribulationists place the rapture at the mid-point of a seven-year tribulation period, the church on earth for only the first half of the tribulation. The views see the second coming of Christ in two phases: a secret coming in clouds to rapture the church and His return with the church to reign on earth. Posttribulationists hold the church will remain on earth during the tribulation period. The church will be protected from divine wrath although experiencing tribulation. See Eschatology; Hope; Tribulation.


Cornerstone Bible Publishers, “Rapture,” The Master Study Bible: Cornerstone Encyclopedia of Bible Knowldege (KJV) (Cornerstone Bible Publishers, 2001), 422–423.

 

[TomL]

Premillennialism

Now let us look at premillennialism. There are two forms of premillennialism, one of which is usually called classical or historic, and the other of which is called dispensational. Both these views believe that the millennium is yet future, and that it begins after the Lord returns to earth.
Let us consider first the classical form of premillennialism. This is a very ancient view that goes back to some of the earliest church fathers. They taught that at the end of the present age, Jesus will come and raise believers to be with him. Then he will reign upon the earth for a thousand years, or some other long period of time. During this time (and not until then), Satan is bound in the bottomless pit. At the end of this time, God will release Satan, and at his instigation some on earth will rebel against Jesus (Rev. 20:3, 7–8). But the Lord will put down the revolt and raise all the dead for final judgment. Then comes the new heavens and new earth.
The dispensational form of premillennialism is more recent (nineteenth century) and more complicated. The key to understanding the dispensational view is the idea that Jesus actually returns twice, making three times altogether that Jesus comes to earth. His first coming was, of course, his conception in the womb of Mary two thousand years ago. At his second coming, at the end of this age, he comes secretly and raptures believers to be with him


John M. Frame, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Christian Belief (Phillipsburg, NJ: P&R Publishing, 2013), 1088–1089.

 

[SteveB]

Premillennialism

Now let us look at premillennialism. There are two forms of premillennialism, one of which is usually called classical or historic, and the other of which is called dispensational. Both these views believe that the millennium is yet future, and that it begins after the Lord returns to earth.
Let us consider first the classical form of premillennialism. This is a very ancient view that goes back to some of the earliest church fathers. They taught that at the end of the present age, Jesus will come and raise believers to be with him. Then he will reign upon the earth for a thousand years, or some other long period of time. During this time (and not until then), Satan is bound in the bottomless pit. At the end of this time, God will release Satan, and at his instigation some on earth will rebel against Jesus (Rev. 20:3, 7–8). But the Lord will put down the revolt and raise all the dead for final judgment. Then comes the new heavens and new earth.
The dispensational form of premillennialism is more recent (nineteenth century) and more complicated. The key to understanding the dispensational view is the idea that Jesus actually returns twice, making three times altogether that Jesus comes to earth. His first coming was, of course, his conception in the womb of Mary two thousand years ago. At his second coming, at the end of this age, he comes secretly and raptures believers to be with him


John M. Frame, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Christian Belief (Phillipsburg, NJ: P&R Publishing, 2013), 1088–1089.

Where do you think the idea of dispensations arises?

Ever heard of the "times of the Gentiles"?
Luke 21:24

Or "the fullness of the Gentiles." Romans 11:25.

How about the Adamic covenant, maybe the Noahic covenant or how about the Abrahamic covenant?

Have you ever noticed that God increases his revelation of himself to the human race with each new era?

Where I come from, we refer to these as dispensations.
An era where God works in the lives of people who believe him.

Thus, those who actually read the Bible for the purpose of understanding, learning, application, awareness and wisdom...
The concept of dispensations arises. Some have referred to this as dispensationalism.

It's not anything secret. No cabal has stumbled into cavern, and tried concocting something that doesn't exist.

I'm not the brightest light in the bunch, and I saw this 41 years ago, once I had read most of the Bible.

 

[TomL]

Where do you think the idea of dispensations arises?


Ever heard of the "times of the Gentiles"?
Luke 21:24

Or "the fullness of the Gentiles." Romans 11:25.

How about the Adamic covenant, maybe the Noahic covenant or how about the Abrahamic covenant?

Um none of that leads to dispensational premillenialism

which teaches a pre trib rapture invented somewhere in the 1800's and popularized by John Darby and Scofield

 

[SteveB]

Um none of that leads to dispensational premillenialism

Where did I say it did?
You can read what I plainly stated.
The concept of dispensations arises. Some have referred to this as dispensationalism.

It's not anything secret. No cabal has stumbled into cavern, and tried concocting something that doesn't exist.

I'm not the brightest light in the bunch, and I saw this 41 years ago, once I had read most of the Bible.

which teaches a pre trib rapture invented somewhere in the 1800's and popularized by John Darby and Scofield

Sounds like you're unfamiliar with biblical history.
I've never been much for either Darby or Scofield.
You keep going though.

 

[TomL]

Where did I say it did?
You can read what I plainly stated.
The concept of dispensations arises. Some have referred to this as dispensationalism.

It's not anything secret. No cabal has stumbled into cavern, and tried concocting something that doesn't exist.

I'm not the brightest light in the bunch, and I saw this 41 years ago, once I had read most of the Bible.


Sounds like you're unfamiliar with biblical history.
I've never been much for either Darby or Scofield.
You keep going though.

Again it does nothing at all to support dispensational premillenialism. and dispensational premillenium has a start date in the 1800's that's the history

 

[SteveB]

Again it does nothing at all to support dispensational premillenialism. and dispensational premillenium has a start date in the 1800's that's the history

You really should learn.
I never needed to support your beliefs about whom I've placed my trust in.

 

[TomL]

You really should learn.
I never needed to support your beliefs about whom I've placed my trust in.

You haven't even supported your own beliefs against scriptural rebuttal

 

[TomL]

A user/poster has a favorite phrase they like using, in what often comes across as derogatory.

"There is no secret, invisible coming" of Jesus.

I actually agree.

It is called a secret as the world will not observe or understand there was any kind of coming of Christ as opposed to the scriptural second coming when all will know

 

[SteveB]

You haven't even supported your own beliefs against scriptural rebuttal

I don't see any reason why I should think you're a reliable judge.