What is The Rapture?

[DavidTree]

@SteveB @civic @armylngst

Steve - just a reminder that i still have a open heart of love for you and never questioned your salvation = SEE Post

I'm waiting for you to show me that what is said in Deuteronomy about Moses to the leaders he appointed is for today? So, who are you the head over that you are to judge them specifically, and if it is too difficult, you are to take to Moses?

Not a problem but i would like to address the 'trinity'.

As you know, the word 'trinity' is not in Scripture.

There is a TRINITY but not in that specific word, so i simply look to the specifics as told us by God.

Genesis is the Foundation for ALL Truth that is unchanging all the way to Revelation.

The Apostle John was able to SEE this by the Holy Spirit and in his Gospel place the FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT on Display.

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Genesis 1:1-3
n the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [a]was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

You may already know this = the Hebrew word for 'God' is Elohim and is Plural

In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

This of course is 'just the beginning' and God will build on this Truth throughout Scripture culminating in the Gospel.

Again - Genesis 1:26 - Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; = 3

Exact detail of The 3 are given in Genesis and repeated in Exodus and finally in the Gospel

 

[DavidTree]

Good Night my Brothers @SteveB @armylngst @civic in Christ Jesus our Lord

 

[SteveB]

"is utterly convinced that the saints in Christ must endure the wrath of God" = another erroneous statement


1 Thess 1:10 - "and to wait for His Son from Heaven, JESUS who delivers us from the wrath to come."

1 Thess 5:9 - For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Thank you for noting these passages.
I'll include Genesis 18:25.
The entire chapter, but explicitly that verse...
Will God judge the righteous with the wicked? Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?

God was willing to spare the entire cities of Sodom and Gomorrah for as few as 10 righteous people...


That you are, this tells me that you don't actually know what the tribulation period is.
So, as I asked you this before and you gave me a vague response, I'll ask you again.

What....
Exactly.....

Is the tribulation period?

 

[SteveB]

Good Night my Brothers @SteveB @armylngst @civic in Christ Jesus our Lord

Merci.
Grace and Peace be with you.
In Christ.

 

[SteveB]

@SteveB @civic @armylngst

Steve - just a reminder that i still have a open heart of love for you and never questioned your salvation = SEE Post

Ok. The Laodecean church reference was pretty harsh. Especially when the people I associate with as followers of Jesus are really anal about being diligent in studying the scripture and learning to be obedient to it.

Not a problem but i would like to address the 'trinity'.

As you know, the word 'trinity' is not in Scripture.

There is a TRINITY but not in that specific word, so i simply look to the specifics as told us by God.

Genesis is the Foundation for ALL Truth that is unchanging all the way to Revelation.

The Apostle John was able to SEE this by the Holy Spirit and in his Gospel place the FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT on Display.

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Genesis 1:1-3
n the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [a]was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

You may already know this = the Hebrew word for 'God' is Elohim and is Plural

In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

This of course is 'just the beginning' and God will build on this Truth throughout Scripture culminating in the Gospel.

Again - Genesis 1:26 - Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; = 3

Exact detail of The 3 are given in Genesis and repeated in Exodus and finally in the Gospel

Genesis 11:7 should be included too.

Years ago I read a book by an orthodox Jewish scholar, by the name of Daniel Boyarin.

He wrote a number of books, but the one I read is
The Jewish Gospels, the story of the Jewish Christ.

The Jewish Gospels: The Story of the Jewish Christ https://a.co/d/eXs2005

In it, he actually deals with the Triune nature of YHVH.

In it, he starts with Genesis 1:1. He focuses on the two Persons up until Daniel 7:12.

In there he focuses on the Son of Man coming before the Ancient of Days, and at this point, the Triune God, YHVH is discussed, and historically developed through Hebrew culture and history.

 

[SteveB]

The rapture is inferred. I would say as strongly as the trinity.

Ok. I disagree, but you go right ahead with this.

I don't think that will ever be solved.

i disagree.
i think it'll be resolved the instant the trumpet blows, and we're translated and taken to be with Jesus.
sadly, those who chose to not be ready will figure it out too late.
this is exactly why I focus on and have taken to emphasize Luke 21:34-36. I encourage you to switch from trying to figure out the when, and focus on praying always to be accounted worthy to escape what's coming on the earth, and to stand before the Son of Man.
If you do that.... whenever it does happen, you'll be gone by the time you realize it happened.

While I am a pre-trib believer, early church fathers made a good argument for what we would call a mid-trib rapture. The persecution that the church would face in the first 3 1/2 years does not rise to the level of what the Great Tribulation will be, and the early church fathers who spoke to it put that as the last 3 1/2 years.

True, but they also had recently watched the people of Israel get exiled and their lands renamed to Syria Palestina, and Jerusalem renamed to Aelia Capitolina.
Over the next several centuries, Israel essentially vanished from history.
Up until the early 20th century, a large portion of the church was convinced that the church had replaced Israel in God's economy.
The Tribulation is about Israel.
Don't forget Daniel 9. God decreed 70 sevens/weeks upon Israel. There's one seven remaining.... the last seven year period of human history....

Some church fathers had their issues handling God's wrath in the end times, but there were those who did speak to protection, whether rapture, or some other supernatural intervention by God.

Since this is all prophecy, as long as you don't miss the heart of what Jesus taught, and the Bible teaches, as long as you aren't one of the foolish ones who doesn't bring extra oil, I would think you are okay.

You should have no problem with mid-trib believers, because it doesn't disrupt the heavenly events portrayed in Revelation. There is still plenty of time for the marriage supper of the lamb, and everything like that. We still are removed/separated from the pouring out of God's wrath during the last 3 1/2 years, so, again, you should have no major problems with mid-trib. You may not agree, but there is no issue, and it could be correct. We may see the Antichrist before he takes on that role officially at the beginning of the last 3 1/2 years.

The mid trib rapture is still in the Jewish part of the clock.

Daniel gives us a clock....
The abomination of desolation takes place 1260 days after the signing of the treaty to rebuild the temple.
Thus, we have a day...
Remember.... nobody knows the day/hour.

Then, from the mid point to the end is also 1260 days....

Days are known....
That doesn't work...

It has to take place before the treaty to rebuild the temple takes place.

Thus, Luke 21:34-36 is critical.

Remember... Genesis 18:25.

God will not judge the righteous with the wicked.

Something else I think is frequently overlooked...

The church is the Bride of Jesus. Ephesians 5:25-33.

This is extremely critical....
According to Revelation 19.... the church is in heaven at the wedding feast, and then she returns to earth on white horses with Jesus.

The strange thing is.... the church disappears from the earthly discussion of the tribulation in chapter 4 of Revelation.

 

[armylngst]

@SteveB @civic @armylngst

Steve - just a reminder that i still have a open heart of love for you and never questioned your salvation = SEE Post




Not a problem but i would like to address the 'trinity'.

As you know, the word 'trinity' is not in Scripture.

There is a TRINITY but not in that specific word, so i simply look to the specifics as told us by God.

Genesis is the Foundation for ALL Truth that is unchanging all the way to Revelation.

The Apostle John was able to SEE this by the Holy Spirit and in his Gospel place the FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT on Display.

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Genesis 1:1-3
n the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [a]was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

You may already know this = the Hebrew word for 'God' is Elohim and is Plural

In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

This of course is 'just the beginning' and God will build on this Truth throughout Scripture culminating in the Gospel.

Again - Genesis 1:26 - Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; = 3

Exact detail of The 3 are given in Genesis and repeated in Exodus and finally in the Gospel

I have no problem with the trinity. One Being made up of three coeternal, coexisting Persons. I just make the point that one will not find trinity explicitly mentioned, and in the same way, the rapture is not explicitly mentioned. That is the only point. A lack of being consistent in how one applies a hermeneutic. That is the only point.

 

[DavidTree]

Thank you for noting these passages.
I'll include Genesis 18:25.
The entire chapter, but explicitly that verse...
Will God judge the righteous with the wicked? Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?

God was willing to spare the entire cities of Sodom and Gomorrah for as few as 10 righteous people...


That you are, this tells me that you don't actually know what the tribulation period is.
So, as I asked you this before and you gave me a vague response, I'll ask you again.

What....
Exactly.....

Is the tribulation period?

Both Noah and Lot were in grave tribulation.
If it were not for their faith in the True God, they would of perished with the surrounding peoples whom God judged.

Both Noah and Lot were delivered from God's Wrath.

Hate - The LORD Jesus specifically told us that His elect (us who are Saved) would be hated by the world and suffer tribulation.
John 15:18 - If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before you

Persecution = John 15:19 - If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you.

Tribulation - John 16:33 - In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

Tribulation unto death - Matthew 24:9 - “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Tribulation before His Coming - 1 Thessalonians 3:1-5
Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it good to be left in Athens alone, and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith, that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this.
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.
For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.

Tribulation before His Coming - 2 Thessalonians 1:3
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

This has never stopped in the world.

 

[DavidTree]

Merci.
Grace and Peace be with you.
In Christ.

SEE, i knew you are my Brother in Christ - thank you for the Blessing

 

[armylngst]

Ok. I disagree, but you go right ahead with this.


i disagree.
i think it'll be resolved the instant the trumpet blows, and we're translated and taken to be with Jesus.
sadly, those who chose to not be ready will figure it out too late.
this is exactly why I focus on and have taken to emphasize Luke 21:34-36. I encourage you to switch from trying to figure out the when, and focus on praying always to be accounted worthy to escape what's coming on the earth, and to stand before the Son of Man.
If you do that.... whenever it does happen, you'll be gone by the time you realize it happened.



True, but they also had recently watched the people of Israel get exiled and their lands renamed to Syria Palestina, and Jerusalem renamed to Aelia Capitolina.
Over the next several centuries, Israel essentially vanished from history.
Up until the early 20th century, a large portion of the church was convinced that the church had replaced Israel in God's economy.
The Tribulation is about Israel.
Don't forget Daniel 9. God decreed 70 sevens/weeks upon Israel. There's one seven remaining.... the last seven year period of human history....

An early church father said the orthodox believers felt that there would be a physical kingdom in Israel. Paul clearly stated that God had not rejected Israel, and God was writing through Paul. The tribulation is about the world, however, the focus is on Israel, God's chosen people whom He has not rejected. In the Old Testament, and in the New, it speaks of the final reconciliation between the nation of Israel (the remnant), and God. Zechariah 12 deals with this "reunion" which occurs between Revelation 19 and 20.

The mid trib rapture is still in the Jewish part of the clock.

Daniel gives us a clock....
The abomination of desolation takes place 1260 days after the signing of the treaty to rebuild the temple.
Thus, we have a day...
Remember.... nobody knows the day/hour.

We don't. Tell me, when does the 70th week start? DTG please. (date/time group) How can we be sure that it starts then, and that it isn't actually a week or two into the 7 years? Perhaps a few days? We don't know, because nobody knows the day/hour. However, Jesus parable about the figs is clear that we will know when it is coming. The abomination of desolation will be a sign that the Great Tribulation is about to start. It marks the time where Jesus tells the Jews to start running, because the Great Tribulation is coming, and is right at the door. No time to grab anything, just run. If they could not know this, why would Jesus say they would? If we can't know the day/hour and that extends to weeks, months, and years, how can Jesus say that the generation of those who see and recognize the signs will not pass away until all has come to pass?

Then, from the mid point to the end is also 1260 days....

Days are known....
That doesn't work...

We don't know the start date, and we don't know when the mid date is. But I guess you can go tell God how it is. Days are known, but is the DAY (singular) known? Days are seasons, and those who see the signs Jesus gave for the Great Tribulation, will know the season. The parable of the fig tree.

It has to take place before the treaty to rebuild the temple takes place.

Thus, Luke 21:34-36 is critical.

Remember... Genesis 18:25.

God will not judge the righteous with the wicked.

As far as I understand, the righteous will not be judged with the wicked, though there are passages that show parallels. (The one group who did not visit the prisoner, the sick, feed the hungry etc. Then the group that did.)

Something else I think is frequently overlooked...

The church is the Bride of Jesus. Ephesians 5:25-33.

The why did the angel take John to see the bride, and they went to New Jerusalem, and John got a tour of New Jerusalem? Why is Israel spoken of as unfaithful, in terms of husband and wife in the Old Testament?

This is extremely critical....
According to Revelation 19.... the church is in heaven at the wedding feast, and then she returns to earth on white horses with Jesus.

Not 100% sure about the return, but yes, this is why there is a rapture. The church is in heaven for at least the last 3 1/2 years, and having a wondrous feast... for themselves? The bride isn't presented until Revelation 20, so can we assume the church is the bride, and not, perhaps Israel? I'm not saying that that is what it is. I am asking if we can assume who the bride is, given what we have in scripture, and know we are right?

The strange thing is.... the church disappears from the earthly discussion of the tribulation in chapter 4 of Revelation.

Israel disappeared from the discussion of plagues for the first few plagues. It isn't until the fourth plague that they come up again, and it was when God separated Goshen from Egypt, shielding those in Goshen from the plagues. One of the church fathers used this to explain how the church will avoid the Great Tribulation. I don't believe he came right out and say rapture, but he didn't say it wasn't.

 

[SteveB]

Both Noah and Lot were in grave tribulation.
If it were not for their faith in the True God, they would of perished with the surrounding peoples whom God judged.

Both Noah and Lot were delivered from God's Wrath.

Hate - The LORD Jesus specifically told us that His elect (us who are Saved) would be hated by the world and suffer tribulation.
John 15:18 - If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before you

Persecution = John 15:19 - If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you.

Tribulation - John 16:33 - In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

Tribulation unto death - Matthew 24:9 - “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Tribulation before His Coming - 1 Thessalonians 3:1-5
Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it good to be left in Athens alone, and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith, that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this.
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.
For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.

Tribulation before His Coming - 2 Thessalonians 1:3
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

This has never stopped in the world.

Yeah, you're talking about two very distinct and unique things.

You're describing the suffering the righteous endure because of opposition from evil.

The 7 years of Tribulation, described in Daniel 9, is God withdrawing his hand, giving people their freedom from him, so they can live as they please.
I.e., antichrist, mark of the beast, rocks and mountains fall, hide them from the wrath of the lamb, etc....
They murder anyone who refuses the mark of the beast, and they seek to rule the world in their own ways.

 

[DavidTree]

Yeah, you're talking about two very distinct and unique things.

You're describing the suffering the righteous endure because of opposition from evil.

The 7 years of Tribulation, described in Daniel 9, is God withdrawing his hand, giving people their freedom from him, so they can live as they please.
I.e., antichrist, mark of the beast, rocks and mountains fall, hide them from the wrath of the lamb, etc....
They murder anyone who refuses the mark of the beast, and they seek to rule the world in their own ways.

SAME tribulation that has been going on throughout the world, is going on now and will only grow into the Great Tribulation.

Hebrews 11:35-38
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment.
They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword.
They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— of whom the world was not worthy.
They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 2:8-10
And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,

‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:
“I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days.
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

 

[SteveB]

SAME tribulation that has been going on throughout the world, is going on now and will only grow into the Great Tribulation.

Hebrews 11:35-38
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment.
They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword.
They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— of whom the world was not worthy.
They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 2:8-10
And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,

‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:
“I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days.
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Yeah. Different.
But, I'm not going to try to change your mind.
It seems pretty clear that whatever you did learn about the tribulation period, it's completely different from what I've learned about it.

biblical eschatology Archives - Calvary Chapel Chino Hills

calvarycch.org

The only thing I'm going to ask is make sure you

Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Granted, we may all wind up dying before he comes, and then we'll be in his presence and the issue will be resolved.

 

[SteveB]

An early church father said the orthodox believers felt that there would be a physical kingdom in Israel. Paul clearly stated that God had not rejected Israel, and God was writing through Paul. The tribulation is about the world, however, the focus is on Israel, God's chosen people whom He has not rejected. In the Old Testament, and in the New, it speaks of the final reconciliation between the nation of Israel (the remnant), and God. Zechariah 12 deals with this "reunion" which occurs between Revelation 19 and 20.

I still think it'll be resolved once the Rapture actually happens.
Over the past several decades, I've come to the awareness that there are numerous things that won't be fully understood until eternity, or they actually take place.
Eschatology is among them.
And I'm OK with with it.
i think there are a lot more things that we can actually understand and need to focus on. I'm presently working on learning what Grace actually is, beyond the various acronyms and anecdotes.
presently, I'm working through this.
 
I "dabble" in eschatology so I can understand it in terms of preparation for the Rapture and what Paul said in Colossians 3:1-4.

Col 3:1-4 WEB 1 If then you were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, our life, is revealed, then you will also be revealed with him in glory.

We don't. Tell me, when does the 70th week start? DTG please.

According to Daniel 9:26-27


Dan 9:26-27 WEB 26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One will be cut off, and will have nothing. The people of the prince who come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end will be with a flood, and war will be even to the end. Desolations are determined. 27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week. In the middle of the week he will cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. On the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate; and even to the decreed full end, wrath will be poured out on the desolate.”

The 70th week begins with a 7 yr treaty with Israel and the antichrist.

(date/time group) How can we be sure that it starts then, and that it isn't actually a week or two into the 7 years?

you did the one day equals a year comparison from Ezekiel 4:4-6, which then refers back to Numbers 14, in which God says that the 40 years of Israel wandering in the wilderness will be based on the 40 days of the 12 spies and their searching out the promised land.
As such, I'm now satisfied with the weeks described by Daniel 9.

Perhaps a few days?

Ezekiel 4:4-6, Numbers 14.

We don't know, because nobody knows the day/hour.

You're conflating apples and oranges...
two totally different things.
i have a novel idea.
I have been attending the Calvary Chapel Christian fellowship for the past 46 years.
We're pre trib, premill. dispensationalism.
Research their materials.

biblical eschatology Archives - Calvary Chapel Chino Hills

calvarycch.org

However, Jesus parable about the figs is clear that we will know when it is coming.

Times and seasons. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3.

The abomination of desolation will be a sign that the Great Tribulation is about to start.

the abomination of desolation is at the middle of the tribulation. The antichrist stands in the Holy of Holies and declare that he is God.

It marks the time where Jesus tells the Jews to start running, because the Great Tribulation is coming, and is right at the door.

it's when the shtf.

No time to grab anything, just run.

Yep.

If they could not know this, why would Jesus say they would?

Still different.

If we can't know the day/hour and that extends to weeks, months, and years, how can Jesus say that the generation of those who see and recognize the signs will not pass away until all has come to pass?

here's one of the problems with the mid/post trib ideas... a serious one.

We don't know the start date, and we don't know when the mid date is.

1260 days after the start of the tribulation period, which starts with the signing of a "covenant."

But I guess you can go tell God how it is. Days are known, but is the DAY (singular) known? Days are seasons, and those who see the signs Jesus gave for the Great Tribulation, will know the season. The parable of the fig tree.

As far as I understand, the righteous will not be judged with the wicked, though there are passages that show parallels. (The one group who did not visit the prisoner, the sick, feed the hungry etc. Then the group that did.)

The why did the angel take John to see the bride, and they went to New Jerusalem, and John got a tour of New Jerusalem? Why is Israel spoken of as unfaithful, in terms of husband and wife in the Old Testament?

Not 100% sure about the return, but yes, this is why there is a rapture. The church is in heaven for at least the last 3 1/2 years, and having a wondrous feast... for themselves? The bride isn't presented until Revelation 20, so can we assume the church is the bride, and not, perhaps Israel? I'm not saying that that is what it is. I am asking if we can assume who the bride is, given what we have in scripture, and know we are right?

Israel disappeared from the discussion of plagues for the first few plagues. It isn't until the fourth plague that they come up again, and it was when God separated Goshen from Egypt, shielding those in Goshen from the plagues. One of the church fathers used this to explain how the church will avoid the Great Tribulation. I don't believe he came right out and say rapture, but he didn't say it wasn't.

Now you're seeing the issues that the pre-trib crew have with the mid/post tribulation rapture.