What is The Rapture?

[DavidTree]

No there are 2 peoples of God- Romans 9-11 make that clear. Israel is not the church.

You are CORRECT in saying that there are

2 peoples of God

Proper use of 'context'

The first group are Jews of the flesh, the earthbound nation of Israel who are dead in their sins =
John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

Matthew 23:37-39
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Romans 10:1-4
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The 2nd Group is the Eternal Israel of God

Matthew 21:43
Jesus said to them , “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?
“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it."

Romans ch9
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. As it is written:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

The Eternal Israel of God is Born from ABOVE - Gospel, Galatians, Ephesians, Hebrews & Revelation

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—
but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

 

[DavidTree]

It's awesome to see people passionate about their beliefs. Not to mention sharing them with each other in a respectful Manner. My hat off to you guys. Keep up the good work.

We can do this in LOVE just as we have received HIS LOVE

Your words LIFT us UP in CHRIST and are powerful - THANK YOU

 

[praise_yeshua]

No there are 2 peoples of God- Romans 9-11 make that clear. Israel is not the church.

You are CORRECT in saying that there are

Is Israel/Jews made up of the faithful or the unfaithful?

The answer to this question is very important.

Israel/Jews was never a group of unfaithful people.

1. Jew is ONLY defined as the faithful.

Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

Jews were the first Calvinists. They claimed a relationship they did not have because they were unfaithful.

2. The Church in like manner is not established without the faithful. The Church is the faithful of all generations. All the faithful obtaining a good report through faith.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Verse #40 establish the unity of all the faithful.

Jew and Church are thusly united.

 

[DavidTree]

Is Israel/Jews made up of the faithful or the unfaithful?

The answer to this question is very important.

Israel/Jews was never a group of unfaithful people.

1. Jew is ONLY defined as the faithful.

Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

Jews were the first Calvinists. They claimed a relationship they did not have because they were unfaithful.

2. The Church in like manner is not established without the faithful. The Church is the faithful of all generations. All the faithful obtaining a good report through faith.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Verse #40 establish the unity of all the faithful.

Jew and Church are thusly united.

Most christians do not fully understand the Identity that takes Place when we are Born-Again by the Spirit of God.

We now become "sons of God' and are placed into the Family of Faith that you so excellently detailed for us.

Hebrews ch12
For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. for they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned https://biblehub.com/nkjv/hebrews/12.htm#footnotesor shot with an arrow.” And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn
who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the New Covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

 

[SteveB]

"Unless those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved. But for the sake of the chosen ones, those days will be shortened."
Believe the words of the Lord = there is no such thing as pre-trib rapture

What Christians endure as tribulation has EVERYTHING to do with that particular period of time.

This is EXACTLY why Jesus warned us--

Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.

This passage, and others are explicitly stating that we will NOT avoid that period of human history.

Really... boy am I glad that Jesus is giving us the opportunity to do so!
It's pretty awesome actually. He tells us in Luke 21,

Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

To the church at Thyatira....

Rev 2:19-29 WEB 19 “I know your works, your love, faith, service, patient endurance, and that your last works are more than the first. 20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate your woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. She teaches and seduces my servants to commit sexual immorality and to eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her and those who commit adultery with her into a bed of great oppression, unless they repent of her works. 23 I will kill her children with Death, and all the assemblies will know that I am he who searches the minds and hearts. I will give to each one of you according to your deeds. 24 But to you I say, to the rest who are in Thyatira—as many as don’t have this teaching, who don’t know what some call ‘the deep things of Satan’—to you I say, I am not putting any other burden on you. 25 Nevertheless, hold that which you have firmly until I come. 26 He who overcomes, and he who keeps my works to the end, to him I will give authority over the nations. 27 He will rule them with a rod of iron, shattering them like clay pots, as I also have received of my Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star. 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies.

To the church at Philadelphia.

Rev 3:7-13 WEB 7 “To the angel of the assembly in Philadelphia write: “He who is holy, he who is true, he who has the key of David, he who opens and no one can shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says these things: 8 “I know your works (behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one can shut), that you have a little power, and kept my word, and didn’t deny my name. 9 Behold, I make some of the synagogue of Satan, of those who say they are Jews, and they are not, but lie—behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you kept my command to endure, I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is to come on the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name. 13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies.

Sounds pretty awesome actually! That Jesus would actually give us the choice of where we want to spend the last 7 years of human civilization governed by man.
Granted, only those who are alive at that time in history will have that choice.
The godly in Christ, who've already gone to be with Jesus will not have that choice. Their lives are finished, here on earth, and they are rejoicing in Jesus now.

The "harpadzo" will not precede the Resurrection - which only occurs at His Second Coming.

The harpadzo IS the resurrection of the godly dead, and the translation of the godly who are alive.

READ this over and over again until it fills your heart = 1 Thess 4:15-16

Yeah, I've been reading it over and over again since 1978.
are you now saying I'm not allowed to read the rest of the bible, so I can fully understand the WHOLE counsel of God?

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord,
will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

correct.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Yep.


I think however if you actually want to spend 7 years in a living hell on earth, just tell him.
We think that's a bad.... Indeed, a foolish decision, but... it is your life.

Even Jesus said that we really don't want to be there!

Mat 24:21-22 WEB 21 for then there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be. 22 Unless those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved. But for the sake of the chosen ones, those days will be shortened.

Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

personally , I'm taking the time to learn everything I can in the Bible to make sure I'm not stuck on earth during this period of history.

 

[DavidTree]

Really... boy am I glad that Jesus is giving us the opportunity to do so!
It's pretty awesome actually. He tells us in Luke 21,

Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

To the church at Thyatira....

Rev 2:19-29 WEB 19 “I know your works, your love, faith, service, patient endurance, and that your last works are more than the first. 20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate your woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. She teaches and seduces my servants to commit sexual immorality and to eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her and those who commit adultery with her into a bed of great oppression, unless they repent of her works. 23 I will kill her children with Death, and all the assemblies will know that I am he who searches the minds and hearts. I will give to each one of you according to your deeds. 24 But to you I say, to the rest who are in Thyatira—as many as don’t have this teaching, who don’t know what some call ‘the deep things of Satan’—to you I say, I am not putting any other burden on you. 25 Nevertheless, hold that which you have firmly until I come. 26 He who overcomes, and he who keeps my works to the end, to him I will give authority over the nations. 27 He will rule them with a rod of iron, shattering them like clay pots, as I also have received of my Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star. 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies.

To the church at Philadelphia.

Rev 3:7-13 WEB 7 “To the angel of the assembly in Philadelphia write: “He who is holy, he who is true, he who has the key of David, he who opens and no one can shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says these things: 8 “I know your works (behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one can shut), that you have a little power, and kept my word, and didn’t deny my name. 9 Behold, I make some of the synagogue of Satan, of those who say they are Jews, and they are not, but lie—behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you kept my command to endure, I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is to come on the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name. 13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies.

Sounds pretty awesome actually! That Jesus would actually give us the choice of where we want to spend the last 7 years of human civilization governed by man.
Granted, only those who are alive at that time in history will have that choice.
The godly in Christ, who've already gone to be with Jesus will not have that choice. Their lives are finished, here on earth, and they are rejoicing in Jesus now.


The harpadzo IS the resurrection of the godly dead, and the translation of the godly who are alive.


Yeah, I've been reading it over and over again since 1978.
are you now saying I'm not allowed to read the rest of the bible, so I can fully understand the WHOLE counsel of God?

correct.

Yep.


I think however if you actually want to spend 7 years in a living hell on earth, just tell him.
We think that's a bad.... Indeed, a foolish decision, but... it is your life.

Even Jesus said that we really don't want to be there!

Mat 24:21-22 WEB 21 for then there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be. 22 Unless those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved. But for the sake of the chosen ones, those days will be shortened.

Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

personally , I'm taking the time to learn everything I can in the Bible to make sure I'm not stuck on earth during this period of history.

Good post EXCEPT for this which you said: "are you now saying I'm not allowed to read the rest of the bible"

Let us not lower ourselves to false accusations but let us encourage one another while it is still the DAY and we have the LIGHT.

Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

My Posts are for the purpose of encouraging everyone to read/study ALL of Scripture and not rely on men's words.
Matthew 4:4 - Man shall not live by bread alone but on every word that proceeds from the Mouth of God.

 

[DavidTree]

Really... boy am I glad that Jesus is giving us the opportunity to do so!
It's pretty awesome actually. He tells us in Luke 21,

Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

To the church at Thyatira....

Rev 2:19-29 WEB 19 “I know your works, your love, faith, service, patient endurance, and that your last works are more than the first. 20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate your woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. She teaches and seduces my servants to commit sexual immorality and to eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her and those who commit adultery with her into a bed of great oppression, unless they repent of her works. 23 I will kill her children with Death, and all the assemblies will know that I am he who searches the minds and hearts. I will give to each one of you according to your deeds. 24 But to you I say, to the rest who are in Thyatira—as many as don’t have this teaching, who don’t know what some call ‘the deep things of Satan’—to you I say, I am not putting any other burden on you. 25 Nevertheless, hold that which you have firmly until I come. 26 He who overcomes, and he who keeps my works to the end, to him I will give authority over the nations. 27 He will rule them with a rod of iron, shattering them like clay pots, as I also have received of my Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star. 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies.

To the church at Philadelphia.

Rev 3:7-13 WEB 7 “To the angel of the assembly in Philadelphia write: “He who is holy, he who is true, he who has the key of David, he who opens and no one can shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says these things: 8 “I know your works (behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one can shut), that you have a little power, and kept my word, and didn’t deny my name. 9 Behold, I make some of the synagogue of Satan, of those who say they are Jews, and they are not, but lie—behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you kept my command to endure, I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is to come on the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name. 13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies.

Sounds pretty awesome actually! That Jesus would actually give us the choice of where we want to spend the last 7 years of human civilization governed by man.
Granted, only those who are alive at that time in history will have that choice.
The godly in Christ, who've already gone to be with Jesus will not have that choice. Their lives are finished, here on earth, and they are rejoicing in Jesus now.


The harpadzo IS the resurrection of the godly dead, and the translation of the godly who are alive.


Yeah, I've been reading it over and over again since 1978.
are you now saying I'm not allowed to read the rest of the bible, so I can fully understand the WHOLE counsel of God?

correct.

Yep.


I think however if you actually want to spend 7 years in a living hell on earth, just tell him.
We think that's a bad.... Indeed, a foolish decision, but... it is your life.

Even Jesus said that we really don't want to be there!

Mat 24:21-22 WEB 21 for then there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be. 22 Unless those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved. But for the sake of the chosen ones, those days will be shortened.

Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

personally , I'm taking the time to learn everything I can in the Bible to make sure I'm not stuck on earth during this period of history.

OK Steve, let's do a scripture study together in Christ.

@SteveB says: "The harpadzo IS the resurrection of the godly dead, and the translation of the godly who are alive."

The harpadzo is not the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
.
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 V-FIP-1P
GRK: σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις
NAS: and remain will be caught up together
KJV: [and] remain shall be caught up together
INT: with them will be caught away in [the] clouds

The 'harpadzo' is what occurs immediately after the Resurrection = 1 Thess 4:16-17

v16 - For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first(anastēsontai).
v17 - After that, we which are alive and remain will be caught up (harpadzo)

will rise first
ἀναστήσονται (anastēsontai)
Verb - Future Indicative Middle - 3rd Person Plural
Strong's Greek 450: To raise up, set up; I rise from among (the) dead; I arise, appear. From ana and histemi; to stand up.

FIRST is the Resurrection of the "dead in Christ" - AFTERWARD - is the Rapture of the alive/remaining saints.

Separate Groups that will BOTH be translated from these bodies of death into His Likeness.

AWE-SOME-ONE = in CHRIST

 

[SteveB]

Good post EXCEPT for this which you said: "are you now saying I'm not allowed to read the rest of the bible"

Let us not lower ourselves to false accusations but let us encourage one another while it is still the DAY and we have the LIGHT.

I haven't made a false accusation.

I asked a straightforward question.

Apparently you can't answer it in a straightforward manner and need to blame me for asking the obvious.

Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

My Posts are for the purpose of encouraging everyone to read/study ALL of Scripture and not rely on men's words.
Matthew 4:4 - Man shall not live by bread alone but on every word that proceeds from the Mouth of God.

Really?
Because I'm seeing a lot of false accusations because we who do so hold to an event which has the modern vernacular of- pre-trib-rapture.

Edit by admin

It's bad enough that you think bribing people is a good thing.

I'll continue to adhere to the Bible.
Have a nice day.

 

[SteveB]

OK Steve, let's do a scripture study together in Christ.

@SteveB says: "The harpadzo IS the resurrection of the godly dead, and the translation of the godly who are alive."

The harpadzo is not the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
.
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 V-FIP-1P
GRK: σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις
NAS: and remain will be caught up together
KJV: [and] remain shall be caught up together
INT: with them will be caught away in [the] clouds

The 'harpadzo' is what occurs immediately after the Resurrection = 1 Thess 4:16-17

v16 - For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first(anastēsontai).
v17 - After that, we which are alive and remain will be caught up (harpadzo)

will rise first
ἀναστήσονται (anastēsontai)
Verb - Future Indicative Middle - 3rd Person Plural
Strong's Greek 450: To raise up, set up; I rise from among (the) dead; I arise, appear. From ana and histemi; to stand up.

FIRST is the Resurrection of the "dead in Christ" - AFTERWARD - is the Rapture of the alive/remaining saints.

Separate Groups that will BOTH be translated from these bodies of death into His Likeness.

AWE-SOME-ONE = in CHRIST

Both groups are translated from a body of corruption to an incorruptible body. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

Sounds like harpadzo.
My question becomes... do you really think that the pre-order of the dead in Christ, separates the living in Christ, by enough time for you to actually delineate between the two?

I mean, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" is pretty fast.
Google says that the twinkling of an eye is 1/10 of a second, or 100 milliseconds. Maybe even as slow as 400 milliseconds.

I get the feeling that you can't even delineate between them.

 

[DavidTree]

Both groups are translated from a body of corruption to an incorruptible body. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

Sounds like harpadzo.
My question becomes... do you really think that the pre-order of the dead in Christ, separates the living in Christ, by enough time for you to actually delineate between the two?

I mean, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" is pretty fast.
Google says that the twinkling of an eye is 1/10 of a second, or 100 milliseconds. Maybe even as slow as 400 milliseconds.

I get the feeling that you can't even delineate between them.

I haven't made a false accusation.

I asked a straightforward question.

Apparently you can't answer it in a straightforward manner and need to blame me for asking the obvious.


Really?
Because I'm seeing a lot of false accusations because we who do so hold to an event which has the modern vernacular of- pre-trib-rapture.

Your posts are neither encouraging nor beneficial.
They're berating, demeaning, and rude.

It's bad enough that you think bribing people is a good thing.

I'll continue to adhere to the Bible.
Have a nice day.

You have been accusatory since your beginning responses towards me.
The joy of fellowship reached out to you but you replied with = "are you now going to tell me i not allowed to read the rest of the Bible"
So mature.

There does not exist in scripture any type of vernacular of pre-trib rapture.

But it does exist, outside of Scripture, only in those who believe it.

If you adhered to the Bible you would believe the words of Christ who says:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

You can keep throwing stones of insult or you can kneel before the Lord and ask for forgiveness = your choice.

 

[DavidTree]

Both groups are translated from a body of corruption to an incorruptible body. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

Sounds like harpadzo.
My question becomes... do you really think that the pre-order of the dead in Christ, separates the living in Christ, by enough time for you to actually delineate between the two?

I mean, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" is pretty fast.
Google says that the twinkling of an eye is 1/10 of a second, or 100 milliseconds. Maybe even as slow as 400 milliseconds.

I get the feeling that you can't even delineate between them.

This was posted in LARGE PRINT for you - but you insist on trying to find fault.

Separate Groups that will BOTH be translated from these bodies of death into His Likeness.
=========================================================================================

FYI - the LORD separated these two Groups UNTIL HE brings them Together = At His Coming.

 

[DavidTree]

A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Matthew 12:35-37

Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
2 Corinthians 5:9-10

 

[SteveB]

You have been accusatory since your beginning responses towards me.
The joy of fellowship reached out to you but you replied with = "are you now going to tell me i not allowed to read the rest of the Bible"
So mature.

Oh, so.... if this is true, then file a complaint with forum mgmt. Otherwise, save it for someone who actually cares.
You'll find I'm not particularly concerned with playing games with you. I'll deal with it at the end of this post.

There does not exist in scripture any type of vernacular of pre-trib rapture.

Then you can wait until Jesus comes back at the end.
Those who are ready when he comes, we'll go with him.
Just remember....
He did say,
Mat 25:1-13 WEB 1 “Then the Kingdom of Heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 Those who were foolish, when they took their lamps, took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 Now while the bridegroom delayed, they all slumbered and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Behold! The bridegroom is coming! Come out to meet him!’ 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘What if there isn’t enough for us and you? You go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 While they went away to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Most certainly I tell you, I don’t know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you don’t know the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

Luk 13:23-30 WEB 23 One said to him, “Lord, are they few who are saved?” He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in and will not be able. 25 When once the master of the house has risen up and has shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ then he will answer and tell you, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 He will say, ‘I tell you, I don’t know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in God’s Kingdom, and yourselves being thrown outside. 29 They will come from the east, west, north, and south, and will sit down in God’s Kingdom. 30 Behold, there are some who are last who will be first, and there are some who are first who will be last.”

You're welcome to come. Jesus is quite clear that he wants as many as possible to come. But we need to be on his terms.

But it does exist, outside of Scripture, only in those who believe it.

i only ever heard of it inside scripture.
I hear a lot of outside scripture arguments for post trib, and mid trib. But nothing that is coherent.

If you adhered to the Bible you would believe the words of Christ who says:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

I do believe them.
And I also believe Zechariah 14, where he steps foot on the Mt of Olives.

You can keep throwing stones of insult or you can kneel before the Lord and ask for forgiveness = your choice.

Oh, you mean like this one?

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/what-is-the-rapture.752/post-52202

How about this one

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/what-is-the-rapture.752/post-52227

Perhaps we should state this one, and your outright inability to answer beyond vague references without actually explaining.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/what-is-the-rapture.752/post-52431

You're making it quite clear to me that your goal is neither encouragement or understanding.
You're acting like the grand poobah of eschatology in the rapture/harpadzo, and the second coming.
So far the only thing you're achieving is to make sure that you're in your own sandbox.

 

[DavidTree]

Oh, so.... if this is true, then file a complaint with forum mgmt. Otherwise, save it for someone who actually cares.
You'll find I'm not particularly concerned with playing games with you. I'll deal with it at the end of this post.


Then you can wait until Jesus comes back at the end.
Those who are ready when he comes, we'll go with him.
Just remember....
He did say,
Mat 25:1-13 WEB 1 “Then the Kingdom of Heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 Those who were foolish, when they took their lamps, took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 Now while the bridegroom delayed, they all slumbered and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Behold! The bridegroom is coming! Come out to meet him!’ 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘What if there isn’t enough for us and you? You go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 While they went away to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Most certainly I tell you, I don’t know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you don’t know the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

Luk 13:23-30 WEB 23 One said to him, “Lord, are they few who are saved?” He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in and will not be able. 25 When once the master of the house has risen up and has shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ then he will answer and tell you, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 He will say, ‘I tell you, I don’t know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in God’s Kingdom, and yourselves being thrown outside. 29 They will come from the east, west, north, and south, and will sit down in God’s Kingdom. 30 Behold, there are some who are last who will be first, and there are some who are first who will be last.”

You're welcome to come. Jesus is quite clear that he wants as many as possible to come. But we need to be on his terms.



i only ever heard of it inside scripture.
I hear a lot of outside scripture arguments for post trib, and mid trib. But nothing that is coherent.

I do believe them.
And I also believe Zechariah 14, where he steps foot on the Mt of Olives.

Oh, you mean like this one?

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/what-is-the-rapture.752/post-52202

How about this one

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/what-is-the-rapture.752/post-52227

Perhaps we should state this one, and your outright inability to answer beyond vague references without actually explaining.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/what-is-the-rapture.752/post-52431

You're making it quite clear to me that your goal is neither encouragement or understanding.
You're acting like the grand poobah of eschatology in the rapture/harpadzo, and the second coming.
So far the only thing you're achieving is to make sure that you're in your own sandbox.

Mat 25:1-13 - Demonstrates that not one of His elect is left behind = Jesus said: "I do not know you" to those who are not His.
This scripture also is Post-Trib
JESUS never leaves a single Sheep of His behind.

Hebrews 13:5-6
Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have.
For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”
So we may boldly say:
“The Lord is my helper;
I will not fear.
What can man do to me?”

Luke 13:23-30

Luke 13:23-30 = GREAT Post-Trib scripture = "When the Master of the House RISES UP" = "the LORD descends from Heaven"
1 Thess 4:13-18 , Matt 24:29-31 , 2 Thess ch2 & Rev 19:11-21


Thank you for posting links to my previous posts = great evidentiary material for everyone to examine

Good Night my Brother who currently is upset but will soon rejoice at His Coming = right along with me!

 

[armylngst]

#1 - There are no scriptures that declare more then one Second Coming.
ALL Scripture from Genesis to Revelation ONLY declare TWO Comings of the LORD Jesus Christ.

Hence why there is a division. There is a rapture, which is not Jesus second coming, but a method that answers the question, how will God keep from pouring out His wrath to destruction on His children, and the second coming, when Jesus comes back to Earth.

 

[Administrator]

I realized this is a controversial topic but as mature Christian brothers and sisters we should be able to discuss it while displaying our love for one another.

The three views are pre-Tribulation Rapture, a mid-Tribulation Rapture, a post-Trib Rapture. They are also referred to as a Tri pan Rapture:

What do they call it? Not a pan-Rapture… Dave: No, “It’ll all pan out in the end.” Tom: Yeah, it’s all going to pan out in the end. No matter which one you believe, if you're a Christian you’re going …

 

[SteveB]

I realized this is a controversial topic but as mature Christian brothers and sisters we should be able to discuss it while displaying our love for one another.

The three views are pre-Tribulation Rapture, a mid-Tribulation Rapture, a post-Trib Rapture. They are also referred to as a Tri pan Rapture:

Which is exactly why I'm focusing on Luke 21:34-36.

I and many others are satisfied that there's plenty of scriptural support for a "pre-trib" harpadzo.

We have indeed heard the "arguments" for the mid/post events.

We see too many holes, and problems with those two times. Explicitly the fact that the day can be known with both times.

The pre leaves all the right issues in place and doesn't discount the other questions.

Everything I'm reading on this op, and the other discussions held, on other forums... there are too many unanswered questions and issues that don't fill the existing holes/blanks.

One poster is making a habit of rejecting any responses that raise questions about specific passages.

It feels like I'm one of the moles in a game of whack-a-mole.

That's neither encouraging or helpful.

When I initially began using forums (2000-2003), the idea was what I'd say was a "Malachi 3:16-17" experience.

We all sit around and have an enjoyable experience sharing neat, cool, and awesome things God was teaching us.

 

[DavidTree]

Hence why there is a division. There is a rapture, which is not Jesus second coming, but a method that answers the question, how will God keep from pouring out His wrath to destruction on His children, and the second coming, when Jesus comes back to Earth.

Dear @armylngyst,
You can CLEAR UP the division by going to the Word of Truth and posting the specific scipture(s) that CLEARLY state:
"There is a rapture, which is not Jesus second coming,"

The moment a person adds their own words upon God's words is where the division originates = SEE Genesis /Serpent

God said there is a Resurrection that occurs BEFORE the Rapture and this ONLY occurs at His Coming = 1 Thess 4:13-18

If you hold "respect of persons" in your heart then you make void God's words by believing men over God.

Deuteronomy 1:17
Then I commanded your judges at that time, saying, ‘Hear the cases between your brethren, and judge righteously between a man and his brother or the stranger who is with him. You shall not show partiality in judgment;
you shall hear the small as well as the great;
you shall not be afraid in any man’s presence,
for the judgment is God’s.

 

[Administrator]

Which is exactly why I'm focusing on Luke 21:34-36.

I and many others are satisfied that there's plenty of scriptural support for a "pre-trib" harpadzo.

We have indeed heard the "arguments" for the mid/post events.

We see too many holes, and problems with those two times. Explicitly the fact that the day can be known with both times.

The pre leaves all the right issues in place and doesn't discount the other questions.

Everything I'm reading on this op, and the other discussions held, on other forums... there are too many unanswered questions and issues that don't fill the existing holes/blanks.

One poster is making a habit of rejecting any responses that raise questions about specific passages.

It feels like I'm one of the moles in a game of whack-a-mole.

That's neither encouraging or helpful.

When I initially began using forums (2000-2003), the idea was what I'd say was a "Malachi 3:16-17" experience.

We all sit around and have an enjoyable experience sharing neat, cool, and awesome things God was teaching us.

We are only responsible for our own behavior.

The nature of the beast seems to be as human beings we tend to disagree then we'd make it personal. I remember in the late '90s I was participating in an online form that used microphones. When the moderator handed you the microphone you were supposed to sing a worship song Acapella. That worked out great, we had a lot of fun. But there was also a shout box that you typed in your comments. I mentioned one day that I was the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. That didn't go over good at all even though it's in the Bible.

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

What I did was just let it go as I wasn't going to let someone's comment ruin the good time I was having praising God through worship songs.

 

[Rockson]

I realized this is a controversial topic but as mature Christian brothers and sisters we should be able to discuss it while displaying our love for one another.

I think people are more in Christendom in current days. Numbers of years ago not so much. Years ago I feel people weren't exposed to various ideas people have and when pastors claimed heresy their flocks were more so swayed their way. Now days a pastors flock is hearing from other sources (maybe through internet) and their members aren't always accepting their ways of thinking. For the sake of peace I think they've lightened up and are accepting maybe we do need to allow a little bit of flexibility on this theme.