What is The Rapture?

[DavidTree]

Hence why there is a division. There is a rapture, which is not Jesus second coming, but a method that answers the question, how will God keep from pouring out His wrath to destruction on His children, and the second coming, when Jesus comes back to Earth.

Some scriptures to look at that show God's protection in the midst of Tribulation.
Rev 7:1-3
After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying,
“Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

The children of Israel dwelt in Egypt when God poured out His judgments including the Angel of Death.
They were protected without having to leave Egypt.

Satan has tried to wipe out BOTH the Jewish people and Believers/Christians since the Garden.
God never allowed him to defeat either.
This does not mean that we are guaranteed protection from satan's wrath and persecution.

Luke 12:4-7
And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
“Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows."

 

[SteveB]

We are only responsible for our own behavior.

The nature of the beast seems to be as human beings we tend to disagree then we'd make it personal.

When someone uses "the Laodecean church" in an epithetical manner, and starts making false accusations, acting in a superior manner.... yes. I do indeed get defensive.
I'll cop to that.

I remember in the late '90s I was participating in an online form that used microphones. When the moderator handed you the microphone you were supposed to sing a worship song Acapella. That worked out great, we had a lot of fun. But there was also a shout box that you typed in your comments. I mentioned one day that I was the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. That didn't go over good at all even though it's in the Bible.

I can see that.
I recall the very first evangelical Crusade I attended back in the 1980s. people were having fun, having shouting routines going back and forth between the two sides of the stadium. First base side against the 3rd base side.
"We love Jesus, yes we do.... how about you?"
This happened a few times, then it changed to-
"we love Jesus yes we do! We love Jesus more than you!"

It took me less than 3 times before I lost it and jumped out onto the 3rd base dugout roof and yelled at people to dial it back because we're all here because we love Jesus.
As you can imagine.... there were very mixed reactions.
Afterwards I felt like an idiot and "pompous" because I called people to the carpet about it.

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

As well as Isaiah 54:17, and Jeremiah 23:7.

What I did was just let it go as I wasn't going to let someone's comment ruin the good time I was having praising God through worship songs.

In this case here.
I think it becomes a matter of- I didn't come here to get into an argument about this. Indeed, I was only planning on answering @Etienne's first post.


Nor did I come here to have my integrity impugned by someone who clearly believes they're superior to everyone who doesn't agree with their opinions, and refuses to listen to the same degree they expect to be listened to.

I can give just as well as I can take. I'm an old guy with a VERY WELL developed sense of sarcasm. I've learned over the years that it only takes once before it turns bad.
Kind of like two old tigers taking swats at each other, claws exposed. One fitly placed swat can open an uncloseable wound from which there is no recovery.


The problem becomes how quickly it can devolve into that shouting match you mentioned...

I'm just not interested in going there.

 

[DavidTree]

post error

 

[DavidTree]

We are only responsible for our own behavior.

The nature of the beast seems to be as human beings we tend to disagree then we'd make it personal. I remember in the late '90s I was participating in an online form that used microphones. When the moderator handed you the microphone you were supposed to sing a worship song Acapella. That worked out great, we had a lot of fun. But there was also a shout box that you typed in your comments. I mentioned one day that I was the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. That didn't go over good at all even though it's in the Bible.

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

What I did was just let it go as I wasn't going to let someone's comment ruin the good time I was having praising God through worship songs.

Are you condoning the behavior exemplified in Posts #108 and #122 ?

i thought that personal attacks were not permitted.

Posting scripture that either agrees or disagrees with a view point is what God expects from us.

Everyone can post any scripture they desire AND everyone can respond with either agreement or disagreement.

Is 'pre-trib' rapture the standard by which all must agree to?

And if we disagree with 'pre-trib' rapture along with false statements are the rules of engagement voided for pre-tribbers who wish to slander and verbally assault those who hold to Christ's own words of His Post-Trib Coming?

 

[Administrator]

Are you condoning the behavior exemplified in Posts #108 and #122 ?

i thought that personal attacks were not permitted.

Posting scripture that either agrees or disagrees with a view point is what God expects from us.

No What I'm saying is we all need to clean up our own act. Bridle our tongues, watch what we say to each other. I can go back and look at the two posts you mentioned and edit them, But the cat's already out of the bag on those two. What I need is cooperation with obeying the rules.

And remember it takes two to tango, I'm not saying that's okay to do I'm just saying that's the way it usually works. On the internet in this format it's real easy to take things the wrong way and then retaliate. It's going to happen and I try not to step in until it escalates.

If you have any other questions or suggestions they would greatly be appreciated.

 

[DavidTree]

No What I'm saying is we all need to clean up our own act. Bridle our tongues, watch what we say to each other. I can go back and look at the two posts you mentioned and edit them, But the cat's already out of the bag on those two. What I need is cooperation with obeying the rules.

PLEASE do not edit them - they are crucial to discovery.

Please take note of Posts 106 & 114 as i reached out in love.

My only defensive position was Post 110, and that was done in accord with the rules of engagement for this forum as i did not slander nor did i hurl any personal insults.

AND, if you feel that was not acceptable, do we have a double standard policy?

i only ask these things so that i can improve on my dialogue when being falsely accused and slandered.

 

[Administrator]

We have a Rodney King policy. There's no double standard we want everyone to get along. How hard is that? It's in the Bible. 1st Corinthians chapter 13.

How many times did Jesus say we should forgive a brother?

The easiest way to get around this is to use the ignore feature. You can also just interact with people that you know you get along with.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Our covenant, as Gentiles is this by belief/ faith........

​

Hebrews 9:11-15​

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained ETERNAL TEDEMPTION FOR US.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

John 1:10-12
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to THEM gave he the power to become the sons of God, EVEN TO THEM THAT BELUEVE ON HIS NAME:

We are the body of Christ, his bride, by faith in his D, B, & R and in his name. His death brought forth the " New Testament"; our covenant !

There will be NO pre-trib rapture by the heresy of man.

We will be gathered after we have suffered persecution of the saints during the tribulation before his second coming !

It is a heretical doctrine outside of God's word of truth to believe we will not suffer for Christ's sake and our faith, unto death ,as it is happening even as I write this to many true believers in his name.

 

[armylngst]

Dear @armylngyst,
You can CLEAR UP the division by going to the Word of Truth and posting the specific scipture(s) that CLEARLY state:
"There is a rapture, which is not Jesus second coming,"

You could also clear up a lot of division by going to the Word of Truth and posting the specific scripture(s) that clearly state:
"God is a trinity, three persons in one being." I can wait. It is the same idea. The trinity is inferred, as the rapture is. Both have strong support in the early church. It is true, however, that this inference is shown through an understanding/belief that God will not pour out His wrath to destruction, upon His children. And some early church fathers actually dealt directly with this understanding.

The moment a person adds their own words upon God's words is where the division originates = SEE Genesis /Serpent

Hence issues between arians, unitarians, and trinitarians, right?

God said there is a Resurrection that occurs BEFORE the Rapture and this ONLY occurs at His Coming = 1 Thess 4:13-18

Please state the verse and highlight where it says "resurrection before the rapture". I will only accept exact wording.

If you hold "respect of persons" in your heart then you make void God's words by believing men over God.

Deuteronomy 1:17
Then I commanded your judges at that time, saying, ‘Hear the cases between your brethren, and judge righteously between a man and his brother or the stranger who is with him. You shall not show partiality in judgment;
you shall hear the small as well as the great;
you shall not be afraid in any man’s presence,
for the judgment is God’s.

Where is the rest of the context? Why do you make God's words void by forcing what Moses said to agree with you:
"15 So I took the heads of your tribes, wise and informed men, and [g]appointed them as heads over you, commanders of thousands, [h]hundreds, [i]fifties, and [j]tens, and officers for your tribes.

16 “Then I ordered your judges at that time, saying, ‘Hear the cases between your fellow countrymen and judge righteously between a person and his fellow countryman, or the stranger who is with him. 17 You are not to [k]show partiality in judgment; you shall hear the small and the great alike. You are not to be afraid of any person, for the judgment is God’s. The case that is too difficult for you, you shall bring to me, and I will hear it.’

This obviously has nothing to do with today, but was between God, Moses, and the Israelites. You can create your own beliefs, but that is all it will be. Your own beliefs. This was Moses' commands to the heads that he appointed.

 

[armylngst]

Some scriptures to look at that show God's protection in the midst of Tribulation.
Rev 7:1-3
After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying,
“Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

Yes the 144,000 sealed of Israel. OF ISRAEL.
"4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, 6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, 7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, 8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, and from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed."

What about... THE CHURCH?

The children of Israel dwelt in Egypt when God poured out His judgments including the Angel of Death.
They were protected without having to leave Egypt.

You should read it again. Those who were in Goshen were separated from what was happening in Egypt. Those who were in Egypt went through it with the Egyptians. However, if you read even deeper, God warned them so that they could avoid some of the judgements. (Bring everyone inside, bring in the livestock, etc.)

Satan has tried to wipe out BOTH the Jewish people and Believers/Christians since the Garden.
God never allowed him to defeat either.
This does not mean that we are guaranteed protection from satan's wrath and persecution.

So this somehow means we are not guarateed protection from GOD'S WRATH, that ends in hell?

Luke 12:4-7
And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
“Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows."

Again, there is a lot more to the context. The disciples were of more value to God, the one Jesus was telling them should be feared, then many sparrows, so, therefore, do not fear.

 

[civic]

Let’s have a good discussion and leave out any personal comments . These differences here just like the. Calvinist Arminian debates will never be solved on this side of glory. Remember we are brothers and sisters in Christ regardless of our theological differences which should have no effect on how we treat one another. Hopefully we can all remember and practice the golden rule and the royal law of love.

 

[SteveB]

You could also clear up a lot of division by going to the Word of Truth and posting the specific scripture(s) that clearly state:
"God is a trinity, three persons in one being." I can wait. It is the same idea. The trinity is inferred, as the rapture is. Both have strong support in the early church. It is true, however, that this inference is shown through an understanding/belief that God will not pour out His wrath to destruction, upon His children. And some early church fathers actually dealt directly with this understanding.

The Rapture (rapiemur in Latin, and Harpadzo in Greek) I'd not inferred. It's expressly stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
The argument, unless it's changed in the past few days, is the timing.
One poster is vociferously arguing that everyone who is alive at the time, must wait until the end of the tribulation period, and is utterly convinced that the saints in Christ must endure the wrath of God against a Christ rejecting world and the time of Jacob's Trouble in bringing Israel to repentance and faith in Jesus as their Messiah.

myself, I'm a pre-trib rapture believer. But, it would appear, based on that other person's perspective, I'm not actually following Jesus if i believe that.

i know others are mid-trib believers.

 

[DavidTree]

You could also clear up a lot of division by going to the Word of Truth and posting the specific scripture(s) that clearly state:
"God is a trinity, three persons in one being." I can wait. It is the same idea. The trinity is inferred, as the rapture is. Both have strong support in the early church. It is true, however, that this inference is shown through an understanding/belief that God will not pour out His wrath to destruction, upon His children. And some early church fathers actually dealt directly with this understanding.

Hence issues between arians, unitarians, and trinitarians, right?

Please state the verse and highlight where it says "resurrection before the rapture". I will only accept exact wording.

Where is the rest of the context? Why do you make God's words void by forcing what Moses said to agree with you:
"15 So I took the heads of your tribes, wise and informed men, and [g]appointed them as heads over you, commanders of thousands, [h]hundreds, [i]fifties, and [j]tens, and officers for your tribes.

16 “Then I ordered your judges at that time, saying, ‘Hear the cases between your fellow countrymen and judge righteously between a person and his fellow countryman, or the stranger who is with him. 17 You are not to [k]show partiality in judgment; you shall hear the small and the great alike. You are not to be afraid of any person, for the judgment is God’s. The case that is too difficult for you, you shall bring to me, and I will hear it.’

This obviously has nothing to do with today, but was between God, Moses, and the Israelites. You can create your own beliefs, but that is all it will be. Your own beliefs. This was Moses' commands to the heads that he appointed.

@armylngst says: You could also clear up a lot of division by going to the Word of Truth and posting the specific scripture(s) that clearly state:
"God is a trinity, three persons in one being."

This is quite easy to see in scripture since the Holy Spirit has revealed this to us.

To help CLEAR UP any confusion it ia always BEST to address one subject matter at a time and then go directly to the scriptures to find God's Answer for us.

Shall we start with the BIG 3 = FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT ???

 

[DavidTree]

The Rapture (rapiemur in Latin, and Harpadzo in Greek) I'd not inferred. It's expressly stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
The argument, unless it's changed in the past few days, is the timing.
One poster is vociferously arguing that everyone who is alive at the time, must wait until the end of the tribulation period, and is utterly convinced that the saints in Christ must endure the wrath of God against a Christ rejecting world and the time of Jacob's Trouble in bringing Israel to repentance and faith in Jesus as their Messiah.

myself, I'm a pre-trib rapture believer. But, it would appear, based on that other person's perspective, I'm not actually following Jesus if i believe that.

i know others are mid-trib believers.

"is utterly convinced that the saints in Christ must endure the wrath of God" = another erroneous statement


1 Thess 1:10 - "and to wait for His Son from Heaven, JESUS who delivers us from the wrath to come."

1 Thess 5:9 - For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

 

[DavidTree]

You could also clear up a lot of division by going to the Word of Truth and posting the specific scripture(s) that clearly state:
"God is a trinity, three persons in one being." I can wait. It is the same idea. The trinity is inferred, as the rapture is. Both have strong support in the early church. It is true, however, that this inference is shown through an understanding/belief that God will not pour out His wrath to destruction, upon His children. And some early church fathers actually dealt directly with this understanding.

Hence issues between arians, unitarians, and trinitarians, right?

Please state the verse and highlight where it says "resurrection before the rapture". I will only accept exact wording.

Where is the rest of the context? Why do you make God's words void by forcing what Moses said to agree with you:
"15 So I took the heads of your tribes, wise and informed men, and [g]appointed them as heads over you, commanders of thousands, [h]hundreds, [i]fifties, and [j]tens, and officers for your tribes.

16 “Then I ordered your judges at that time, saying, ‘Hear the cases between your fellow countrymen and judge righteously between a person and his fellow countryman, or the stranger who is with him. 17 You are not to [k]show partiality in judgment; you shall hear the small and the great alike. You are not to be afraid of any person, for the judgment is God’s. The case that is too difficult for you, you shall bring to me, and I will hear it.’

This obviously has nothing to do with today, but was between God, Moses, and the Israelites. You can create your own beliefs, but that is all it will be. Your own beliefs. This was Moses' commands to the heads that he appointed.

@armlingst says: 16 “Then I ordered your judges at that time, saying, ‘Hear the cases between your fellow countrymen and judge righteously between a person and his fellow countryman, or the stranger who is with him. 17 You are not to [k]show partiality in judgment; you shall hear the small and the great alike. You are not to be afraid of any person, for the judgment is God’s. The case that is too difficult for you, you shall bring to me, and I will hear it.’

This obviously has nothing to do with today, but was between God, Moses, and the Israelites. You can create your own beliefs, but that is all it will be. Your own beliefs. This was Moses' commands to the heads that he appointed.

It has everything to do with 'TODAY'
Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ” - Hebrews ch3

 

[DavidTree]

Let’s have a good discussion and leave out any personal comments . These differences here just like the. Calvinist Arminian debates will never be solved on this side of glory. Remember we are brothers and sisters in Christ regardless of our theological differences which should have no effect on how we treat one another. Hopefully we can all remember and practice the golden rule and the royal law of love.

Here is YOUR problem:
"But, it would appear, based on that other person's perspective, I'm not actually following Jesus if i believe that." = false statement

"is utterly convinced that the saints in Christ must endure the wrath of God" = another erroneous statement

 

[armylngst]

Let’s have a good discussion and leave out any personal comments . These differences here just like the. Calvinist Arminian debates will never be solved on this side of glory. Remember we are brothers and sisters in Christ regardless of our theological differences which should have no effect on how we treat one another. Hopefully we can all remember and practice the golden rule and the royal law of love.

On Calvinism, don't make it a gospel thing. Even the prince of preachers said that until God gives him a rollcall of the elect, he will preach "whosoever wills". Even Calvin preached with persuasion. Even Calvin engaged in battle with the soul. Why? No one but God knows who the elect were, are, or will be. All we are told is to be Jesus witnesses to the world. Preach the gospel to all. Some plant the seed, and some water. BUT it is GOD who gives the increase. So please, calvinists (well, those who aren't extremists), don't preach a different gospel. It is their soteriology that is different. There understanding of what HAS happened.

 

[armylngst]

The Rapture (rapiemur in Latin, and Harpadzo in Greek) I'd not inferred. It's expressly stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

The rapture is inferred. I would say as strongly as the trinity.

The argument, unless it's changed in the past few days, is the timing.

I don't think that will ever be solved. While I am a pre-trib believer, early church fathers made a good argument for what we would call a mid-trib rapture. The persecution that the church would face in the first 3 1/2 years does not rise to the level of what the Great Tribulation will be, and the early church fathers who spoke to it put that as the last 3 1/2 years.

One poster is vociferously arguing that everyone who is alive at the time, must wait until the end of the tribulation period, and is utterly convinced that the saints in Christ must endure the wrath of God against a Christ rejecting world and the time of Jacob's Trouble in bringing Israel to repentance and faith in Jesus as their Messiah.

Some church fathers had their issues handling God's wrath in the end times, but there were those who did speak to protection, whether rapture, or some other supernatural intervention by God.

myself, I'm a pre-trib rapture believer. But, it would appear, based on that other person's perspective, I'm not actually following Jesus if i believe that.

Since this is all prophecy, as long as you don't miss the heart of what Jesus taught, and the Bible teaches, as long as you aren't one of the foolish ones who doesn't bring extra oil, I would think you are okay.

i know others are mid-trib believers.

You should have no problem with mid-trib believers, because it doesn't disrupt the heavenly events portrayed in Revelation. There is still plenty of time for the marriage supper of the lamb, and everything like that. We still are removed/separated from the pouring out of God's wrath during the last 3 1/2 years, so, again, you should have no major problems with mid-trib. You may not agree, but there is no issue, and it could be correct. We may see the Antichrist before he takes on that role officially at the beginning of the last 3 1/2 years.

 

[armylngst]

@armylngst says: You could also clear up a lot of division by going to the Word of Truth and posting the specific scripture(s) that clearly state:
"God is a trinity, three persons in one being."

This is quite easy to see in scripture since the Holy Spirit has revealed this to us.

So post it word for word and give the reference, because I haven't been able to find it. I believe the rapture sits in the same situation as the trinity, but that there are only two acceptable stances, due to some of what is in Revelation. Those are a pre-trib rapture, and a mid-trib rapture. There can be no marriage supper of the lamb with a post-trib rapture.

To help CLEAR UP any confusion it ia always BEST to address one subject matter at a time and then go directly to the scriptures to find God's Answer for us.

Shall we start with the BIG 3 = FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT ???

I believe in the trinity. All I am showing is that you are not being consistent, that is it.

 

[armylngst]

@armlingst says: 16 “Then I ordered your judges at that time, saying, ‘Hear the cases between your fellow countrymen and judge righteously between a person and his fellow countryman, or the stranger who is with him. 17 You are not to [k]show partiality in judgment; you shall hear the small and the great alike. You are not to be afraid of any person, for the judgment is God’s. The case that is too difficult for you, you shall bring to me, and I will hear it.’

This obviously has nothing to do with today, but was between God, Moses, and the Israelites. You can create your own beliefs, but that is all it will be. Your own beliefs. This was Moses' commands to the heads that he appointed.

It has everything to do with 'TODAY'
Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ” - Hebrews ch3

I'm waiting for you to show me that what is said in Deuteronomy about Moses to the leaders he appointed is for today? So, who are you the head over that you are to judge them specifically, and if it is too difficult, you are to take to Moses? This whole thing happened because Moses Midianite father in law told him that there is no reason for him to exhaust himself hearing every pithy little case, in addition to difficult cases. Choose people you trust, Moses, and they can hear and render judgement on the easy cases, and then you, Moses, only have to deal with the difficult cases. In that way, Moses would not exhaust himself.