Salvation and Unitarians

Yes, that's right. I've often wondered why the NT never used the divine name directly.

My current theory is not to unnecessarily offend those coming out of Judaism.
Hard to say why but thats a possibility. I think the problem with the unitarians and the divine name in the OT used in the NT is one of presuppositions. Since they presume Jesus is not God when they read anything in Scripture that references or implies Jesus is God they must deny that is what the passage is declaring about Him. Its no different ( I know first hand ) than the calvinist who reads tulip into everything they see and read in Scripture with that presupposition. Anything that appears to contradict any point must be denied and come up with an alternative meaning in the passage.

Its not easy to read scripture as if you are reading it for the first time. But if we practiced that we would be much more open to the Holy Spirits leading and guiding us into truth. We all box God in some way, shape or form with our beliefs. I know I did for along time with the doctrines of grace that I put on equal ground with scripture because at one time I believed they were scripture. But I finally learned they were just another view of scripture and stopped conflating the two. That is when the light bulbs started going off and started questioning and searching for answers with an open mind.
 
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When the NT quotes an OT passage that uses the Hebrew name YHWH and uses the Greek equivalent word Kurious ( Lord ) it means the same thing in the Hebrew- YHWH and Lord become synonymous terms in Scripture.
Well then what's your point here civic? What are you actually saying? You are surely prematurely not suggesting that you have found yet another place where YHWH means Jesus because you say YHWH means Lord because what you read it that way in your Bible? Actually most NT translations of YHWH/LORD whether in the OT and even the NT produced errs and confusion when they translated YHWH into 'Lord.' That is why it is CRUCIAL now because of more recent English mistranslations, to understand the context even more in which they are used.. And this is one example of it in Acts and Romans.

A little background that may help...

LORD (all caps or small caps) reflects (an image) the original term YHWH over 6800x, while 'Lord' is the English rendition of the Hebrew adonai is used about 300x.

We must be careful to know the origin and source of these words.....that even so incorrectly written 'Lord' for YHWH is not and NEVER the same as 'Lord' for Jesus in the NT.

What may help clear things up is to consider the context in which this scripture in question is used and why? You might be amazed as to why Paul for example quoted Joel. What was Paul speaking about before and after he quoted the OT?
 
Paul is emphasizing by quoting Joel that the RESPONSIBILY for salvation has changed or shifted from the Father God YHWH DIRECTLY of the OT to his Son directly for our salvation under grace then and today. Paul recognized this shift of responsibility from the Father to the Son. In other words, we go through the Son to be saved as delegated by YHWH his Father. The identities of each have not changed or merged to be the same person in anyway.

Strawman.

I never claimed their identities have changed or that the Father and the Son are the same Person.


No one would conclude that Pharaoh and Joseph were the same being or person, and there is no reason to conclude that Jesus and God are both 'God' just because Jesus now has some of the responsibilities that God had until He exalted Jesus.

Your comparison falls apart because Joseph was never properly referred to as Pharaoh.
However, Paul and other apply passages about YHWH from the OT directly to the Lord Jesus.

Big difference.
 
Strawman.

I never claimed their identities have changed or that the Father and the Son are the same Person.




Your comparison falls apart because Joseph was never properly referred to as Pharaoh.
However, Paul and other apply passages about YHWH from the OT directly to the Lord Jesus.

Big difference.
Really, my argument is not plausible because you believe the leader of Egypt was never referred to as Pharaoh? Okidoki, let's move on then...

Yes SOME passages in the OT of/about YHWH do apply is some regard to Lord Jesus...agreed...although this is not a part of this discussion.
 
Really, my argument is not plausible because you believe the leader of Egypt was never referred to as Pharaoh? Okidoki, let's move on then...

Joseph was never referred to as Pharaoh.

Get it right.


Yes SOME passages in the OT of/about YHWH do apply is some regard to Lord Jesus...agreed...

They reply in FULL REGRARD to the Lord Jesus.
He is prayed to as being YHWH.



although this is not a part of this discussion.

Yes, it is.
 
Paul applied passages about YHWH in direct reference to Jesus.

Unitarianism bites the dust.
Fred, tell me you do understand why Paul mentioned and made this reflection from Joel of the Father God YHWH for his audience and implicated his Son. Yes indeed Paul applies YHWH to his Son for a real good purpose as passing the baton to him for our salvation, and not simply to cry out and say Joel in YHWH means that Jesus, his Son is is now me, the Creator today. That would be part of a Monty Python skit, and laughable.

In brief, Paul is saying by referencing his Son that he is now the one responsible for our salvation not YHWH directly of the OT. The age of grace by YHWH ushered in the age of his Son and for Father to be the planned instrument and sacrifice for our salvation. Paul is making this picture very clear to his audience.

Beaten this subject to death I believe by now....move on?
 
Fred, tell me you do understand why Paul mentioned and made this reflection from Joel of the Father God YHWH for his audience and implicated his Son.

To demonstrate Jesus is YHWH.


Yes indeed Paul applies YHWH to his Son for a real good purpose as passing the baton to him for our salvation, and not simply to cry out and say Joel in YHWH means that Jesus, his Son is is now me, the Creator today. That would be part of a Monty Python skit, and laughable.

An assertion simply because one chooses not to believe Jesus is YHWH.
Paul could have easily expressed what he wanted to without quoting almost exactly from this verse in Romans 10:13. In fact, Acts 2:21 is an exact quote.

In brief, Paul is saying by referencing his Son that he is now the one responsible for our salvation not YHWH directly of the OT.

See above.

The age of grace by YHWH ushered in the age of his Son and for Father to be the planned instrument and sacrifice for our salvation. Paul is making this picture very clear to his audience.

Beaten this subject to death I believe by now....move on?

You could move on and igniore the evidence. That's your choice.
 
To demonstrate Jesus is YHWH.




An assertion simply because one chooses not to believe Jesus is YHWH.
Paul could have easily expressed what he wanted to without quoting almost exactly from this verse in Romans 10:13. In fact, Acts 2:21 is an exact quote.



See above.



You could move on and igniore the evidence. That's your choice.
You bring no evidence to the table Fred. I believe you have stated your version and I mine. Iw ill leave you with thought as not for a last word in but it is another thing to consider.

Even Peter in Acts 2:14-21 quoted even with more verses of Joel than Paul does in Romans. And then you will tell me the same conclusion, that Peter is also raising these OT verses to tell folks that YHWH is Jesus and Peter before called Jesus the Son of the living God (YHWH) It does seem inconceivable and it is as I read scripture and understand it.

Let me tell you what Peter wrote and then convince yourself again that he is ONLY saying YHWH is Jesus for NO plausible rhyme or reason.

(Act 2:17) And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:
(Act 2:18) Yea and on my servants and on my handmaidens in those days Will I pour forth of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.
(Act 2:19) And I will shew wonders in the heaven above, And signs on the earth beneath; Blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
(Act 2:20) The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the day of the Lord come, That great and notable day:
(Act 2:21) And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(Act 2:22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;
(Act 2:23) him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:
(Act 2:24) whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
(Act 2:25) For David saith concerning him, I beheld the Lord always before my face; For he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
(Act 2:26) Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; Moreover my flesh also shall dwell in hope:
(Act 2:27) Because thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades, Neither wilt thou give thy Holy One to see corruption.
(Act 2:28) Thou madest known unto me the ways of life; Thou shalt make me full of gladness with thy countenance.
(Act 2:29) Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day.
(Act 2:30) Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set one upon his throne;
(Act 2:31) he foreseeing this spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left in Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
(Act 2:32) This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses.
(Act 2:33) Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.
(Act 2:34) For David ascended not into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(Act 2:35) Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet.
(Act 2:36) Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.
(Act 2:37) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?
(Act 2:38) And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(Act 2:39) For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.
(Act 2:40) And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.
(Act 2:41) They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls.
(RV)

Now Fred it is very obvious to me that Peter as Paul is never saying such a ridiculous claim that YHWH is Jesus his Son in any way shape or form. There is much more of a more important topic that both discussed. They had a real purpose in connecting the Father YHWH to Jesus and salvation when they spoke.

Pay attention to the bolded letters in these listed verses above, especially that Father God Almighty, YHWH, is superior to his Son, by raising his from the dead as the firstborn from the dead. And that faith in our lord Jesus is now paramount for our salvation and NOT JUST having faith in his Father YHWH anymore, as before.

Peter and Paul had to bring in the Father YHWH into the discussion to form a known foundation for his audience and then to comprehend who is Jesus and show the role and significance of Jesus our lord in their lives. Their audiences were all still not convinced that Jesus was key to their lives under the age of grace. Many were still of the old thought of the Law that faith in YHWH alone was sufficient.

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2 John 9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
He that abideth in the doctrine, he hath both the Father and the Son.

The same Greek word for doctrine (didachē) is used here:
Acts 2:42
And they continued devoting themselves to the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.


The doctrine of the apostles that these believers devoted themselves to (Acts 2:42) included the fact that the Lord Jesus is YHWH (Acts 2:21).
Those who deny Jesus is YHWH do not abide in the doctrine of Christ and therefore they do not have God (2 John 9).
 
The doctrine of the apostles that these believers devoted themselves to (Acts 2:42) included the fact that the Lord Jesus is YHWH (Acts 2:21).
You say this over and over again even after it has been refuted. Why is that?

Again, let's look at Acts 2:21 (NLT) But everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved. In no way does this remotely suggest that the lord Jesus is YHWH, aka the LORD. So, why do you keep making this claim?
 
You say this over and over again even after it has been refuted. Why is that?

Again, let's look at Acts 2:21 (NLT) But everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved. In no way does this remotely suggest that the lord Jesus is YHWH, aka the LORD. So, why do you keep making this claim?

Honestly, it does seem to put him on the level of God.

We don't see, "Whoever calls on the name of Moses shall be saved."
We don't see, "Whoever calls on the name of David shall be saved."
We don't see, "Whoever calls on the name of Elijah shall be saved."
We don't see, "Whoever calls on the name of Peter shall be saved."
We don't see, "Whoever calls on the name of John the Baptist shall be saved."


And why not.

Because Scripture tells us, and we intuitively know, that Salvation belongs to the Lord.
 
And Fred, neither was Jesus called YHWH or even LORD for the record.
He is willfully ignorant that the word "lord" only applies to Jesus. This is an incorrect abuse of 1 COR 8:6. Consider the lord YHWH (from REV there are 385 instances) and other lords of the Bible:

Numbers 36:2 My lord was commanded by YHWH. This will not do in trinity land.


Gen 15:2
But Abram said, “Lord Yahweh, what will you give me, since I continue to be childless, and he who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?”
footnotes: Lit. “walk” or “go,” referring to living life
Gen 15:8And he said, “Lord Yahweh, how will I know that I will possess it?”
Gen 24:12And he said, “O Yahweh, the God of my lord Abraham, please let it happen for me this day, and deal faithfully with my lord Abraham.
Gen 24:27And he said, “Blessed be Yahweh, the God of my lord Abraham, who has not forsaken his covenant faithfulness and his truthfulness toward my lord. As for me, Yahweh has guided me on the way to the house of my lord’s relatives.”
Gen 24:35Yahweh has blessed my lord abundantly, and he has become great. He has given him flocks and herds and silver and gold and male slaves and female slaves and camels and donkeys.
Gen 24:42“I came today to the spring and said, ‘O Yahweh, the God of my lord Abraham, if now you are making the journey on which I am going successful,
Gen 24:44and she says to me, “Drink, and I will also draw for your camels,”—let her be the woman whom Yahweh has appointed to be for my lord’s son.’
Gen 24:48and I kneeled down and worshiped Yahweh and blessed Yahweh, the God of my lord Abraham, who had led me in the true way to take my lord’s brother’s daughter for his son.
Gen 24:51Behold, Rebekah is before you. Take her and go, and let her be the wife for your lord’s son, as Yahweh has spoken.”
Gen 24:56But he said to them, “Do not delay me, for Yahweh has made my journey successful. Send me away that I may go to my lord.”
Exod 4:10But Moses said to Yahweh, “Pardon, O my Lord. I am not eloquent, neither before now nor since you have spoken to your servant, for I am slow of speech and of a slow tongue.”
Exod 5:22Moses returned to Yahweh, and said, “Lord, why have you brought trouble on this people? Why is it that you have sent me?
Exod 15:17You will bring them in and plant them
in the mountain of your inheritance,
the place, Yahweh,
that you have made for yourself to dwell in,
the sanctuary, Lord,
that your hands have established
Exod 23:17Three times in the year all your males are to appear before the Lord Yahweh.
Exod 34:23Three times in the year all your males are to appear before the Lord Yahweh, the God of Israel.
Num 32:27but your servants will pass over, every man who is armed for war, before Yahweh to battle, as my lord says.”
Num 36:2and they said, “Yahweh commanded my lord to give the land for inheritance by lot to the children of Israel, and my lord was commanded by Yahweh to give the inheritance of Zelophehad our brother to his daughters.
Deut 3:24Lord Yahweh, you have begun to show your servant your greatness and your strong hand, for what god is there in heaven or on earth that can do according to your works and according to your mighty acts?
Deut 9:26And I prayed to Yahweh, and said,

Lord Yahweh, do not destroy your people and your inheritance that you have redeemed through your greatness, that you have brought out of Egypt with a mighty hand.
Deut 10:17For Yahweh your God, he is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty and the awesome one, who does not show partiality nor takes a bribe.
Josh 3:13It will come to pass, when the soles of the feet of the priests who carry the ark of Yahweh the Lord of all the earth come to rest in the waters of the Jordan, the waters of the Jordan will be cut off, and the waters coming down from above will stand up in one heap.”
Josh 5:14And he said, “Neither. Rather I am the commander of the army of Yahweh. Now I have come.”

And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to him, “What does my lord have to say to his servant?”
footnotes: Or, “bowed down”
Josh 7:7Joshua said, “Alas, Lord Yahweh, why have you brought this people across, yes, across the Jordan, only to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? If only we had been content to live beyond the Jordan
 
Honestly, it does seem to put him on the level of God.

We don't see, "Whoever calls on the name of Moses shall be saved."
We don't see, "Whoever calls on the name of David shall be saved."
We don't see, "Whoever calls on the name of Elijah shall be saved."
We don't see, "Whoever calls on the name of Peter shall be saved."
We don't see, "Whoever calls on the name of John the Baptist shall be saved."


And why not.

Because Scripture tells us, and we intuitively know, that Salvation belongs to the Lord.

Funny how you replace a title for people's name in your post. Moses and David are both lords in Scripture. Do you suppose Acts 2:21 is referring to these lords?

Acts 2:21 is referring to YHWH not Jesus. So, it makes sense that the LORD is on the level of God. It is.

Jesus is never referred to as capital-LORD. There is a reason for that. He is not God. This is why Acts 2:21 does not say whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved.

All this, I consider a sham, a back door attempt to leverage any ambiguity in text to support a false doctrine. In context, there is no ambiguity. There is only one true God (John 17:3), Jesus’ God (John 20:17, Rev 3:12), whose eternal name is YHWH (Ex 3:15) - who we relate to as Father (Mat 6:9, Eph 1:2, 1 COR 8:6). Simple.
 
You say this over and over again even after it has been refuted.


It's never been refuted.

Perhaps it has in your fantasy.

Again, let's look at Acts 2:21 (NLT) But everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved. In no way does this remotely suggest that the lord Jesus is YHWH, aka the LORD. So, why do you keep making this claim?

Pay attention: Peter (recorded by Luke) quoted an OT text about YHWH and applied it to Jesus.

Thus, Jesus is YHWH.
 
John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

The question must be asked, "What must a person believe about Christ to be saved?". I'm not asking when you believe you were saved. I'm not asking how you believe you were saved. I'm asking what about Christ did you believe that fulfilled John 8:24?
not having read all the posts. this directly related to Isaiah 52:4 "For thus saith the Lord GOD, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause." Isaiah 52:5 "Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed." Isaiah 52:6 "Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I." Isaiah 52:7 "How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!"

what day was that when he spoke those words? John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

101G.
 
It's never been refuted.

Perhaps it has in your fantasy.



Pay attention: Peter (recorded by Luke) quoted an OT text about YHWH and applied it to Jesus.

Thus, Jesus is YHWH.
No! You are applying to Jesus. Scripture says Jesus is the son of God, not God incarnate. Why do you disregard the explicit teachings of the Bible and impose your eisegesis?
 
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