Salvation and Unitarians

[mikesw]

In John 17:1-3, Jesus is talking directly to His Father. It was an intimate conversation, wasn't it?
So, if Jesus calls his Father the Only and True God, He meant that.
Furthermore, in John 17:1-3, Jesus identifies Himself as a person sent by the Only and True God.

So, in John 17:1-3 Jesus reveals who is the Father and who is himself.

Obviously you are free to believe what you want to believe, just as me and anyone else in this Forum.
My purpose in talking to you is not to change your mind about the Trinity, but to change your mind about the Unitarians, so that you can embrace them as your brothers and sisters. They will be forgiven and saved just as you.

The unitarians can do whatever they are inclined to do. It does not require permission from me to pursue a misconception of God's nature. There is nothing there to embrace though. The doctrine may interfere with people who might otherwise come into a relationship with God. That is one of the problems with all these false religions. We do not wish that these unitarians be left unjustified like those of the false religions. As you might guess, the best comprehension of God and Christ is something worth defending.
Just as shared before, eternal life is knowing God. Jesus encountered the Pharisees who taught false doctrine and rejected Christ as the Prophet. The majority of those Pharisees did not come to know God. So, even religious leaders can study scriptures but not come to Christ. Who wants to be responsible for leading others to deny Christ?

 

[mikesw]

The problem we face is that people can even go to church for a long time -- even becoming an elder in the church -- and not realize they had not yet come to Christ. Why make it harder by accepting the unitarians as equal. The broader concern, beyond just diminishing the significance of Christ (but that is really as bad as it gets), is that other doctrines, such as justification fall apart if Christ is merely a man. Any martyr would claim to be on par with Christ -- and we see many false messiahs, even of other religions, claim to be special men. God lets people remain in the false doctrines if that is where such people's hearts are anyhow. (I still can accept that people of milder deception may still truly come to Christ. But why keep them on the outskirts of true doctrine?)

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The unitarians can do whatever they are inclined to do. It does not require permission from me to pursue a misconception of God's nature. There is nothing there to embrace though. The doctrine may interfere with people who might otherwise come into a relationship with God. That is one of the problems with all these false religions. We do not wish that these unitarians be left unjustified like those of the false religions. As you might guess, the best comprehension of God and Christ is something worth defending.
Just as shared before, eternal life is knowing God. Jesus encountered the Pharisees who taught false doctrine and rejected Christ as the Prophet. The majority of those Pharisees did not come to know God. So, even religious leaders can study scriptures but not come to Christ. Who wants to be responsible for leading others to deny Christ?

Do not get confused.
Denying Christ is a very different thing that denying a particular theology about Christ.
Remember that Christ clearly taught that denying Christ means practicing evil. (Mat 7:21-23)

Knowing God means loving. (1 John 4:7) It does not mean answering correctly 20 questions of a Theology test.
If you think that @Peterlag , @Studyman or millions of Jews and Muslims will burn in hell, unforgiven, because they denied the Trinity based on arguments they found rational, you have not understood a single word of the Gospel.
Fortunately, you don’t believe nor preach that.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The problem we face is that people can even go to church for a long time -- even becoming an elder in the church -- and not realize they had not yet come to Christ. Why make it harder by accepting the unitarians as equal. The broader concern, beyond just diminishing the significance of Christ

A person diminishes the significance of Christ when her life starts becoming loveless. When that person starts being indifferent to those in need. When that person starts loving money, or sex, or popularity, more than God.
Unless a Unitarian friend of yours starts doing that, you cannot accuse her of diminishing the significance of Christ.

(but that is really as bad as it gets), is that other doctrines, such as justification fall apart if Christ is merely a man. Any martyr would claim to be on par with Christ -- and we see many false messiahs, even of other religions, claim to be special men. God lets people remain in the false doctrines if that is where such people's hearts are anyhow. (I still can accept that people of milder deception may still truly come to Christ. But why keep them on the outskirts of true doctrine?)

Many Unitarians ALREADY live the life of Christ. Many are ALREADY saved. Just observe reality, mike, and accept it. It is there.

 

[mikesw]

Do not get confused.
Denying Christ is a very different thing that denying a particular theology about Christ.
Remember that Christ clearly taught that denying Christ means practicing evil. (Mat 7:21-23)

Knowing God means loving. (1 John 4:7) It does not mean answering correctly 20 questions of a Theology test.
If you think that @Peterlag , @Studyman or millions of Jews and Muslims will burn in hell, unforgiven, because they denied the Trinity based on arguments they found rational, you have not understood a single word of the Gospel.
Fortunately, you don’t believe nor preach that.

Wow. you certainly have Matt 7:21-23 backwards from your interest. These verses could be interpreted to say that certain people thought they were followers of Christ but they really did not know him and follow him. There is not any statement about evil here.
As to the future of these people who may not know Christ and who therefore have these invalid concepts of Christ, I am not in control of that. God is doing whatever is in His wisdom. If someone denies the nature of Christ, it is likely that they do not know Christ. Still, some people may just be confused on their doctrine but they still know Christ. That is not in my ability to determine what happens to them.
So pray and receive Christ in your life. If you want to secure the best opportunity of eternal life for these various groups, share the gospel of Christ with them. That is better than hoping that they find a backdoor somehow.

 

[mikesw]

A person diminishes the significance of Christ when her life starts becoming loveless. When that person starts being indifferent to those in need. When that person starts loving money, or sex, or popularity, more than God.
Unless a Unitarian friend of yours starts doing that, you cannot accuse her of diminishing the significance of Christ.

Many Unitarians ALREADY live the life of Christ. Many are ALREADY saved. Just observe reality, mike, and accept it. It is there.

Oh my. You are promoting a works-oriented concept of salvation. That is what easily happens when a non-Christian tries to evaluate scripture. Their hearts have diminished Christ from what scriptures say. Peterlag cannot even make a convincing argument nor have I seen you provide convincing arguments against the divinity of Christ in the Godhead. (usually the idea is promoting the humanness of Jesus, which is not in dispute.) All I'm saying is their knowledge does not bear the fruit of knowing Christ. They deny who he is and they do so with weak arguments.
The other critical element is their effort to take the heretical paths of their own interpretation of scripture. This leads them into the situation of the lone sheep surrounded by wolves. If they have a sufficient argument against the nature of God, they need to build that argument against the established Trinitarian doctrine. If they can convince the scholars of a new view, then good luck to them.
Also, the key here is not really what doctrines I hold as critical. The issue is what God reveals and the consequences of not trusting God in the options good and bad that result from man's behavior. In Romans 6, Paul mentions the wages of sin is death. The only way of escape from those wages is through Christ.

 

[Studyman]

So you can't name someone that did and you're treating what Jesus said as if "all works" Jesus did can actually be done?

That "rings" of a "hallow" defense. There is an alternative. Several alternatives that actually give Jesus all the Glory He deserves.

I believe the Jesus "of the Bible" was the greatest man ever born of a woman. He was the perfect mortal human, who walked in the Good works God before ordained that humans should walk in them, blameless from His Youth. And it appears His Father, who HE calls "The One True God", believed the same thing about Him and gave Him a Name above all other humans that were ever born of a woman. And Granted Him Immortality and gave Him back the great Glory HE had with His Father, before He laid down His own Immortality and became lower than the Angels to do the Will of His Father in Heaven.

You asked me " I ask that you name just one man that had the power Christ has". I posted God's Inspired Words in Hebrews where other men have also done great, even supernatural works, as a mortal man filled with the Spirit of God, just like Jesus did. Did I say they were better or more perfect than Jesus? NO! I would never say such a thing.

I also showed you God's Inspired Words regarding another Prophet God sent, called Eliajah. He too, like Jesus, was able, through Faith in the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, raise a dead person back to life, just as Jesus raised Lazarus. I posted the two examples, but you continue as if I didn't post anything. I didn't even mention Peter who walked on water, just as Jesus did, until his faith in God faltered.

I don't believe Jesus overcame temptation because HE was God, and therefore cannot be tempted. Such a belief diminishes the efforts and sacrifice of the Christ and makes His existence some kind of scam. Like a God that "looked" like a man, "walked" like a man, but wasn't really a man, rather a God disguised as a man. And for what? To glorify Himself, by giving Himself Glory and Honor. To deceive men? To pretend to be dead so He could pretend to raise Himself from the dead?

John 7: 16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

17 If any man will do his will, "he shall know of the doctrine", whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

18 He that speaketh of himself "seeketh his own glory": but he that seeketh "his glory that sent him", the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

I will not be discouraged by you and Civic or Kenneth Copeland or anyone who professes to know God, into rejecting the very Words of my Saviour, sent by my God and His God to save me.

You are free to promote whatever religious philosophy you choose to adopt. And the power to do that, was also given you by the God and Father of the Lord's Christ.

 

[Studyman]

Your beliefs about Jesus person and resurrection are identical.

Their religion, just like yours and the Calvinists and Armenians have rejected God's Judgments and have created their own. They, just like you and the Calvinists and Armenians have rejected the Feasts of the Lord and have adopted the Catholic high days and sabbaths. They, just like you and the Calvinists and Armenians, preach to the world that God's Laws are an impossible to obey "Yoke of Bondage" God placed on the necks of men who trusted Him to direct their footsteps.

So I am not surprised that others promote that Jesus was a man of sorrows, whose power came from His God and my God. But concerning the foundation of their belief, their religion is no different than yours or the Calvinists.

 

[civic]

Their religion, just like yours and the Calvinists and Armenians have rejected God's Judgments and have created their own. They, just like you and the Calvinists and Armenians have rejected the Feasts of the Lord and have adopted the Catholic high days and sabbaths. They, just like you and the Calvinists and Armenians, preach to the world that God's Laws are an impossible to obey "Yoke of Bondage" God placed on the necks of men who trusted Him to direct their footsteps.

So I am not surprised that others promote that Jesus was a man of sorrows, whose power came from His God and my God. But concerning the foundation of their belief, their religion is no different than yours or the Calvinists.

Projecting as expected. Your false christ the theirs are the same- bodiless and no longer a man denying the bodily Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus. I notice you keep deflecting the topic of the Resurrection which is the very core teaching and preaching of the gospel by the Apostles.

Your religion is no different than the spirit of antichrists as I demonstrated earlier since your belief about Jesus bodily Resurrection is the same as the JW's. Your Jesus is no longer a man, in the flesh- that's the spirit of antichrist at work. From this we know you do not and cannot speak for God.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Studyman]

That is good topic. I believe most people repent because they feel they will get "caught". They repent because they do not want to be punished. I call this "compliance".

That is very a very interesting judgment of others. So God tells His people who the Passover Lamb was sacrificed for, "Thou shall not steal, the soul that steals shall die". and God also says, "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"

So if I Love God and want to please Him because I love Him, and HE wants me to live because HE doesn't have any pleasure in me dying, in your religion this isn't being Faithful, just "Complient"?

I don't know where you learned this philosophy. The Bible teaches "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Is it unrighteous then, to "Yield myself" a servant to please God, like Jesus did?

I don't believe compliance satisfies God. Which is why laws can never really change a person to the level of change necessary to please God.

That is a popular teaching, that God's Laws don't really mean anything for the person who humbles himself in obedience to them.

But according to what is written;

Deut. 6: 1 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:

2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.

It is my understanding that God created His Laws for His People to walk in, for their benefit. And Paul also understood that repentance from the old man, to putting on the NEW Man, "which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness", turned the bad tree into a good tree bearing good fruits.

Eve was convinced that she could bear good fruits apart from God's Judgments and Laws. This world's religions promote the same philosophy. I have come to believe that God knows what HE was doing when HE created HIS Righteousness for men to walk in.

God deals with the absolutes of the will. God desires to "Win" us His way of thinking. Real and meaningful repentance is more than just compliance.

Also, repentance is a two way street. Not only must you really change your mind. God must change His. I'm not saying that God rejects true repentance. I am simply stating that repentance is not real if God does not approve of it. This is a personal choice God makes relative to each individual.

It's much simpler than that in my view, according to the Jesus "of the Bible". "But their fruits you shall know them". A man who knows God's judgments but rejects God's Judgments, is not repentant. Even if he calls Jesus Lord, Lord. This is why Paul taught both Jew and Gentile, "that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."

You're basically saying that I must believe them even if I don't understand them. Thusly, I'm going to ignore the fact that I presented a explanation that contains a contradiction.
HE is the greatest of those who have such power. Which is confirmation of His nature.

Not since the world began has anyone seen such power.... Remember those words? Jesus Christ never failed in any way. All the apostles failed at some level or another.

That is why we call Him MASTER. No servant is greater than their MASTER.

Yes, Jesus was the perfect mortal human being. That is why His God gave Him a name above all other humans. And that is why I trust Him to show me in the way that I should go.

 

[Studyman]

Projecting as expected. Your false christ the theirs are the same- bodiless and no longer a man denying the bodily Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus. I notice you keep deflecting the topic of the Resurrection which is the very core teaching and preaching of the gospel by the Apostles.

Your religion is no different than the spirit of antichrists as I demonstrated earlier since your belief about Jesus bodily Resurrection is the same as the JW's. Your Jesus is no longer a man, in the flesh- that's the spirit of antichrist at work. From this we know you do not and cannot speak for God.

hope this helps !!!

LOL, So in your religion, me and Paul are "Anti-Christ" because we both believe what Paul teaches, "that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God".

 

[civic]

LOL, So in your religion, me and Paul are "Anti-Christ" because we both believe what Paul teaches, "that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God".

Nice try you teach the opposite of Paul on the Resurrection of Christ which Paul declares is physical, bodily, flesh and Jesus is still a real man, a real human having a real body as Jesus declared was actually " FLESH and BONES ".

flesh and bones is not flesh and blood as I've already dismantled that JW fallacy you espouse.

 

[101G]

If I understood you correctly, you believe that Father and Son are two names describing two roles of the same One Being.
If I have misunderstood you, please accept my apologies and correct me.

first thanks for the reply, second, no, they are not roles, but designation in TIME, PLACE, ORDER, and RANK, just as the term "BEGINNING" in Genesis 1:1 clearly states. and as Deuteronomy 6:4 the term "ONE" Express this same designation in "ORDER" or as the "First" in Ordinal designation.

brother Pancho Frijoles, you're on the right track. but instead of two separate and distinct persons, the ECHAD express one PERSON, EQUALLY SHARED. and this equally sharing of ONE person is the beauty of the ECHAD in TIME as (Beginning, and End), PLACE as (OT and NT), here "ORDER" as (First and Last), and "RANK", as (Father and Son).

did you see TIME as (Beginning, and End?). now again Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." now "God" is revealed
God: H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).
4. (sometimes) supreme, used as a superlative.
5. (occasionally, by way of deference) supreme magistrates, the highest magistrates of the land.
6. (also) the supreme angels (entities of unspecified type).
[plural of H433]
KJV: angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Root(s): H433

notice, H430 is the [plural of H433] notice plural of, of, of, ..... and not FROM 433. see the difference. of and not from. see, if God: H430 is "FROM" H433, then one would have two separate and distinct person. but the definition states "OF" H433 which indicate the UNITY of ONE just as the ECHAD" states. but the question must be asked, "HOW IS NTHIS UNITY?" answer "EQUALLY SHARED". yes, SHARED, and not Separate, hence not roles, but designations of titles in "TIME", "PLACE", ORDER", and "RANK". just as "Beginning" in Genesis 1:1 clearly states.

if we get it right in the beginning, we can then understand all the way to the end.

one other extra. the term "WITH", and the term "ANOTHER" G243 allos. both of these words also express this Hebrew term ECHAD.

once one master these terms, then one will see the plurality of, of, of, God as ONE PERSON, "EQUALLY SHARED" as Spirit, H433, SHARED in Spirit as Father/LORD/First, and Shared equally in that flesh which was to come as spirit, H433, Son/.Lord/Last.

again thank for asking. if there are any other question you have, please ask.

101G.

 

[Studyman]

Why not accept the Scriptures. There is NONE Good but God. You can join that argument if you would like. Believe Jesus.


God is self satisfying alone. God doesn't need us at all. You seem to prefer that God NEED YOU. I believe it solely through benevolence that God gives mankind anything. If you stick around in this argument, we will end up at that very spot very soon.

I can answer this but I'm going to stop and insist that you actually give a meaningful response to what I have already asked.

Insincerity. You fit right there with them. I do too. You haven't been perfect. You haven't keep God's commandments to love Him with ALL YOUR HEART.......

When can I "do" this? When can you and I "Keep the commandments of God"? Can we go back even 5 minutes and keep them? Can I go in the future even ten minutes and keep them? Honestly, can you answer this? I can only obey God or disobey God "Right now". This is undisputable Spiritual, Physical truth of the world God created and placed me in. If you are rejecting God's Judgments "Right now", then why are you choosing to do so?

Is the devil making you reject God's Laws and Judgments right now? Does God give an escape for every temptation of man, to everyone but you?

Are you saying that God withholds from you the power to obey His Instruction "Right now"? What instruction are you transgressing right now then? Since you are promoting this philosophy, and are instructing others, can you tell me what Laws of God you are rejecting at this very moment in time, the only time God gives you power to "DO" anything?

I reject outright, this world's religious philosophy you are promoting, that God and His Son, the Jesus "of the Bible", gave me instructions to live by, but not the power or capacity to live by them.

I am not perfect yet, but I press toward the prize of this high calling of God, the same high calling that was in Christ Jesus. Will I be tempted to turn away from God, by the voices of religious men who call Jesus, Lord, Lord? Am I surrounded by "many" self-proclaimed "ministers of righteousness" who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate".

The entire Bible teaches that I will, including the Lord's Christ, in whom I trust.

So then, in this life, where I only have power to "Do" something "right now", as designed by Almighty God Himself, what shall I do? I choose to let the Holy Scriptures direct my footsteps.

Ecc. 12: 12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: "Fear God, and keep his commandments": for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

And in His Mercy, I can do these things right now, as it is also written; "Today, if you hear HIS Voice, harden not your heart".

 

[Studyman]

Compliance without the sincerity of love and agreement means nothing. They were lying. I would be lying if I claimed to do God's works "perfectly". Only the meritorious work of God in Christ Jesus meets God's standards.

These "laws" you appeal to are "mirrors" reflecting your own incapability. You prove it over and over again by failing.

I must say this. I will offend you but it must be said. You know what a person is called when they don't perfectly keep the law of God they espouse?

Hypocrites. Read what Paul said....

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

This is why I said what I said earlier concerning Romans 1 to another here. If you can get Romans 1 in the right perspective, it all makes sense after that.....

Romans 1 is a trip down memory lane for humanity. You are no better than your fathers that rejected God. Stephen said the same thing....

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

That is what men do. Repeatedly fail. As you age you will see more of this.

Calvinism espouses the same philosophy. That God lied about Abraham and Noah and Zacharias and Simeon. And that when David said, "For God is in the generation of the righteous" (Pslm.14), that he was lying, because you and the Calvinists preach there is no one righteous in God's eyes except His Own Son. That there was no difference between the Church of God Saul and the Pharisees persecuted, and the Pharisees who persecuted them as you clearly preach above.

The reason why I don't adopt your religious views, is because of the stark difference between what you preach, and what the scriptures actually say.

Where is your evidence that Caleb is included in Stephen's rebuke? Or Joshua? Or David? Or Noah? Or Abraham?

Sadly, because the love has grown cold, many will not consider what the scriptures actually say, but will continue in their quest to justify their own religions and images of God established in their own mind, even when scriptures bring question to them.

What are you going to do then? As you body lets you down and your spirit aches because of your inabilities. Will you still appeal to "I can do all things" and pretend you always have and always will?

As to my future, by God's design I don't know what the future holds for me. I would be a fool to convince myself that I do, as past experience has clearly shown me, and the Jesus "of the Bible" has instructed me.

But today, right now, I am "Yielding myself" a servant to obey God. I welcome you to commit yourself to Him, as HE instructs, but there is a cost.

It is an unattainable goal. That is why we keep reaching out. If you attain the goal....

In you and Civic's adopted religion, yes, Jesus placed instructions on men that are unattainable. I do not presume to make such judgments about my Lord and Savior.

What do you do? Rest? There remains a rest for the people of God......A people of faith that praise Jesus Christ above every man.

Have you shed your blood and life for humanity? Did you accomplish that "work" in your own life that Jesus accomplished. I mean you claimed that you can do all the works of Jesus....

Jesus alone did this ONCE..... and is more than enough for all of humanity.

Your discouraging words notwithstanding, I will follow the views of those God Sent to me.

Joshua 24: 14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, (Right now) we will serve the LORD.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I believe the Jesus "of the Bible" was the greatest man ever born of a woman. He was the perfect mortal human, who walked in the Good works God before ordained that humans should walk in them, blameless from His Youth. And it appears His Father, who HE calls "The One True God", believed the same thing about Him and gave Him a Name above all other humans that were ever born of a woman. And Granted Him Immortality and gave Him back the great Glory HE had with His Father, before He laid down His own Immortality and became lower than the Angels to do the Will of His Father in Heaven.

You asked me " I ask that you name just one man that had the power Christ has". I posted God's Inspired Words in Hebrews where other men have also done great, even supernatural works, as a mortal man filled with the Spirit of God, just like Jesus did. Did I say they were better or more perfect than Jesus? NO! I would never say such a thing.

Good. Then you can't do everything that Jesus did/does. I agree.

I also showed you God's Inspired Words regarding another Prophet God sent, called Eliajah. He too, like Jesus, was able, through Faith in the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, raise a dead person back to life, just as Jesus raised Lazarus. I posted the two examples, but you continue as if I didn't post anything. I didn't even mention Peter who walked on water, just as Jesus did, until his faith in God faltered.

Doesn't matter. You're not recognizing the differences at all. Let me take your examples above and deal with them....

Peter started to sink.
Elijah... RAN away....
Lazarus died AGAIN....

Nothing even close to being like Jesus. Similar? Maybe. Close. No. There are NONE like Him. Even among the faithful. God.

That title offends you relative to loving Jesus Christ. It shouldn't at all.

I don't believe Jesus overcame temptation because HE was God, and therefore cannot be tempted. Such a belief diminishes the efforts and sacrifice of the Christ and makes His existence some kind of scam. Like a God that "looked" like a man, "walked" like a man, but wasn't really a man, rather a God disguised as a man. And for what? To glorify Himself, by giving Himself Glory and Honor. To deceive men? To pretend to be dead so He could pretend to raise Himself from the dead?

I never said that He pretended be dead. He died in the flesh. Through that experience "God" tasted of death.

Jesus didn't almost fail..........Jesus easily TRIUMPHED over death. The weakness of God is great than man. Do you remember those words?

Jesus suffered but He didn't once come close to acting contrarily to His Divine nature. You see a weak Jesus. I see a TRIUMPH Jesus. One with more power than any man. God Incarnate.

You seem to insist that you must drag Jesus down to your own sinful level.

I will not be discouraged by you and Civic or Kenneth Copeland or anyone who professes to know God, into rejecting the very Words of my Saviour, sent by my God and His God to save me.

You are free to promote whatever religious philosophy you choose to adopt. And the power to do that, was also given you by the God and Father of the Lord's Christ.

You're making mistakes. I have no agenda apart from this. Just a LITTLE LEAVEN.... leavens the entire lump. You might want to apply that fact to yourself and that fact the Impeccable nature of Christ Jesus.

Realize just how pure and powerful Christ is. Till you do, you will always place yourself equal to or above Him in your theology. You no different any man. All men do.

Christ was more than a man. God Incarnate. He deserves the praise. If you can do what Jesus did... .ALL of it... then YOU deserve the praise.

Not flesh shall Glory in the presence of Jesus Christ.

He suffered once. Only three days dead..... Three days and He is alive forever more.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That is very a very interesting judgment of others. So God tells His people who the Passover Lamb was sacrificed for, "Thou shall not steal, the soul that steals shall die". and God also says, "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"

So if I Love God and want to please Him because I love Him, and HE wants me to live because HE doesn't have any pleasure in me dying, in your religion this isn't being Faithful, just "Complient"?

I don't know where you learned this philosophy. The Bible teaches "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Is it unrighteous then, to "Yield myself" a servant to please God, like Jesus did?

The reason you yield is important. Do you see that word "yield". Please notice what you wrote yourself.

"YEILDING" is a process of bowing to contrary desires. It is not GOOD ENOUGH to just "bow" to Jesus Christ. You must agree with Him. Those are two different things. It the difference between childish compliance and adult love.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

I've told my own children. That when they were young they listened to me without question. As they started to grow up, their own wills got in the way. They still complied with what I demanded but they soon were getting ready to make their own choices. This is part of being an adult.

There is a HUGE difference to bowing to the laws of another..... and making those laws your own.....

You can see this in the willing servant in Exodus 21. A Hebrew (near kin) servant were set free after 6 years of service. In the 7th year, they had a choice. He could go free with nothing. He brought nothing into the relationship, he could take nothing from the relationship.

Free to do according to his own will. If the Master's ways were not his desires. He could get out.

However, if he had come to really LOVE His Master.... Then he would serve the Master forever.

Exo 21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

A willing servant. Not a servant just going along because of what he can get out of the Master.................

You have many religious people in this world living by the "moral code" of another solely because they expect to get rewarded............

Empty brother. Empty. Meaningless relative to our will.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

first thanks for the reply, second, no, they are not roles, but designation in TIME, PLACE, ORDER, and RANK, just as the term "BEGINNING" in Genesis 1:1 clearly states. and as Deuteronomy 6:4 the term "ONE" Express this same designation in "ORDER" or as the "First" in Ordinal designation.

brother Pancho Frijoles, you're on the right track. but instead of two separate and distinct persons, the ECHAD express one PERSON, EQUALLY SHARED. and this equally sharing of ONE person is the beauty of the ECHAD in TIME as (Beginning, and End), PLACE as (OT and NT), here "ORDER" as (First and Last), and "RANK", as (Father and Son).

did you see TIME as (Beginning, and End?). now again Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." now "God" is revealed
God: H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).
4. (sometimes) supreme, used as a superlative.
5. (occasionally, by way of deference) supreme magistrates, the highest magistrates of the land.
6. (also) the supreme angels (entities of unspecified type).
[plural of H433]
KJV: angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Root(s): H433

notice, H430 is the [plural of H433] notice plural of, of, of, ..... and not FROM 433. see the difference. of and not from. see, if God: H430 is "FROM" H433, then one would have two separate and distinct person. but the definition states "OF" H433 which indicate the UNITY of ONE just as the ECHAD" states. but the question must be asked, "HOW IS NTHIS UNITY?" answer "EQUALLY SHARED". yes, SHARED, and not Separate, hence not roles, but designations of titles in "TIME", "PLACE", ORDER", and "RANK". just as "Beginning" in Genesis 1:1 clearly states.

if we get it right in the beginning, we can then understand all the way to the end.

one other extra. the term "WITH", and the term "ANOTHER" G243 allos. both of these words also express this Hebrew term ECHAD.

once one master these terms, then one will see the plurality of, of, of, God as ONE PERSON, "EQUALLY SHARED" as Spirit, H433, SHARED in Spirit as Father/LORD/First, and Shared equally in that flesh which was to come as spirit, H433, Son/.Lord/Last.

again thank for asking. if there are any other question you have, please ask.

101G.

I don't know if I am accurate in deeming your view as modalist, but I believe that modalism is the easiest and most logical way that Christians could embrace to keep worshiping One Person while recognizing the deity of Jesus.

Certainly it is the closest perspective to my view as Baha'i, since we believe in Jesus as a Manifestation of God, and not just a man.
It is in this sense that whoever loves Jesus loves God. Whoever rejects Jesus rejects God.

Having said that, I also think this view is conflicted by the fact that Jesus prays to The True and Only God (especially at Gethsemane, and at the cross), or that Jesus submits his will to the will of God. How do you interpret those passages, my brother?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Oh my. You are promoting a works-oriented concept of salvation.

No, my friend.
I believe that works are not the cause, but the visible consequence of being saved.
That's why we know that if @Peterlag behaves as a saved man, is because he is in fact a saved man, regardless of whether his arguments are strong or weak, correct or mistaken.
If you meet a Jew or a Muslim or a Jehovah Witness who produces the fruit of the spirit, is because the spirit of God is in them, working.

The proof that the belief in the deity of Christ is not essential for salvation is the fact that people who do not believe in that doctrine also show the fruits of the spirit.

The same applies to you as a person.
I believe you are mistaken in regard to the Trinity.
But if I see you behaving like a person who follows Christ, that shows me that the spirit of Christ lives in you and that you are born again and saved.

So, that fact of me or you being theologically "right" or "wrong" does not determine our salvation.
We are not saved by works, and certainly we are not saved by our brilliant biblical exegesis.

The fact that there are saved Unitarians and save Trinitarians, and Unitarians who live in hell and Trinitarians who live in hell, proves that the doctrine has no direct relationship with salvation.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Wow. you certainly have Matt 7:21-23 backwards from your interest. These verses could be interpreted to say that certain people thought they were followers of Christ but they really did not know him and follow him. There is not any statement about evil here.

I don't understand what you mean.
The text reads: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonderful works in Your name?’ 23 But then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from Me, you who practice evil.

So, the reason Jesus is telling those people that Jesus never knew them, is because they practice evil.
In contrast, those who enter the Kingdom are those who do the will of The Father.

That's the same reason why Jesus tells the parable of the Judgement of Nations in Matthew 25, where sheep are separated from goats, isn't it?
Goats are not condemned for their theological view of Jesus, are they?
Why are they condemned, then? Well, for not doing what Jesus asked them to do: love their brother.

The same principle is presented over and over in the gospels. For example in John 3:19

This is the verdict, that light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Look how the text doesn't say that men loved darkness because they had the wrong theology about the intimate nature of Christ, but because their deeds were evil. To be in darkness does NOT mean to be Unitarian or Trinitarian. It means to have an evil life.