Which proves what?
And since you affirmed it, where is Jesus referred to as "God" by Paul?
Luke 16:15 teaches otherwise because the Lord Jesus fully knows the hearts of all people (John 2:24-25; Acts 1:24; 1 Corinthians 4:5; Revelation 2:23).
Salvation and Unitarians
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
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Which proves what?
And since you affirmed it, where is Jesus referred to as "God" by Paul?
Luke 16:15 teaches otherwise because the Lord Jesus fully knows the hearts of all people (John 2:24-25; Acts 1:24; 1 Corinthians 4:5; Revelation 2:23).
Jesus almost directly saying He is God:
(Joh 4:21) Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
(Joh 4:22) Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
(Joh 4:23) But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
(Joh 4:24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
(Joh 4:25) The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
-- This woman is referring to God by context
---Then Jesus says:
(Joh 4:26) Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
Being the Messiah and NOT being God isn't taught in the bible
(Joh 4:21) Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
(Joh 4:22) Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
(Joh 4:23) But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
(Joh 4:24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
(Joh 4:25) The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
-- This woman is referring to God by context
---Then Jesus says:
(Joh 4:26) Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
Being the Messiah and NOT being God isn't taught in the bible
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Which proves that Paul thought in God as a Person who is NOT Jesus.
This is easy to find using a search engine, such as BibleGateway.
I think those few verses are either involuntary mistranslations or deliberate manipulations, as they contradict the other 95% of Pauline text.
I will be delighted to comment on them with a person who is also interested in exploring the overwhelming majority of verses that present Jesus as a being separate from God, and that present only the Father (and not Jesus) as God. Are you one of those persons, my brother?
Luke 16:15 does not present Jesus calling Himself God.
Every single time Jesus mentioned God, he refered to God as a different Being, and that is an indisputable FACT.
Having said that, the focus of this thread is about salvation… and this is my favourite topic.
Anyone who thinks that a person needs to believe in the Trinity to enjoy the presence and love of God for eternity is making an absurd claim.
A claim that cannot be supported by reason or Scripture.
I’m ready to defend this thesis in a respectful debate.
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
No, Jesus is not. I invite you respectfully to Read the passage again.
In The passage you are quoting Jesus presents His Father as the Person who is to be worshiped and who seeks worshipers (verse 23j.
Jesus never asked any person to worship anyone but The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who is his Father
Certainly, Jesus never put the belief in the Trinity as a condition to be forgiven, healed or saved.
I strongly disagree. Ask any rabbi in your city. No single Jew never ever read the Tanakh thinking that the Messiah was going to be God.
The Messiah would be a human king annointed by God, who would lead Israel to spiritual and material salvation and prosperity.
Jesus accepted worship of Himself
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit
Jesus forgave sin of those who hadn't directly offended Him
Jesus was head of the disciples but not one of them
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
We could certainy debate on each of your propositions.
But let’s agree first that in the story of Jesus and the Samaritan woman, told in John 4, Jesus presents his Father as the God that Jews and Samaritans worshiped… the God that seeks true worshipers.
Can we agree on that, @360watt ?
Yes, Jesus does present the Father as the God to be worshiped.
He isn't saying He is the Father, but putting Himself as equal.
I am still waiting for you to back up your claim that Paul referred to Jesus as God in 5% of the times 'God' is used.
Stick to what you asserted and what I asked you to do based on your assertion. It makes a dialogue a whole lot more logical and consistent.
Since Jesus fully knows the hearts of all demonstrates He is God for this is something God alone knows (1 Kings 8:39).
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
The word "Trinity" is an English word. It denotes a teaching. I don't expect the word "Trinity" to be found in the Bible because these original texts were not written in English. If they were, you might very well have that result.
I do have the words of Jesus. Jesus told JEWS.... (His own descendants after the flesh) these words....
Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
I have the words of Jesus. Can you explain how you expect to escape the wrath of God without Jesus?
Please realize that the death and sacrifice of Christ not only made a way to God... it also absolutely condemned those who reject Christ to damnation without remedy.
So tell me what Jesus means to you? Is Jesus just merely a means for your promotion?
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Dear @Fred, @civic and @praise_yeshua
I do not demand to see the word "Trinity" written in the Bible. I demand evidence that the God I should worship is not a Personal God, but an assembly of persons, or a shared feature of several persons.
Such concept is absent from the Bible. The Bible presents God as One Person, and in your heart, my friends, you all worship One Person.
I expect to escape the wrath of God as David expected to escape the wrath of God. (Psalm 51). I beg you to read it with me:
Have mercy on me, O God,
according to Your lovingkindness;
according to the abundance of Your compassion,
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions,
and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against You, You only, have I sinned,
and done this evil in Your sight,
so that You are justified when You speak,
and You are blameless when You judge.
5 I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin my mother conceived me.
6 You desire truth in the inward parts,
and in the hidden part You make me to know wisdom.
7 Purify me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness,
that the bones that You have broken may rejoice.
9 Hide Your face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
and uphold me with Your willing spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
and sinners will return to You.
14 Deliver me from blood guiltiness, O God,
God of my salvation,
and my tongue will sing aloud of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare Your praise.
16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and a contrite heart,
O God, You will not despise.
18 Do good to Zion in Your good pleasure;
build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then You will be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness,
with burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
then they will offer young bulls on Your altar.
Thanks for the question.
To me Jesus is the Son of God. I abide by the confession of Peter, that Jesus praised as revealed from the Father.
May I ask what God means to you?
See my first sentence that I wrote in post 229.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Both can be true. You shouldn't treat such as being impossible.
Nonsense. Just absent from your mind. You've chosen to listen to others instead of the Scriptures.
Jesus said very clearly that He is God.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
In YOUR mind. Fathers and Sons are separated. In realty, with God, they are not. They are perfect in Unity though they in Person they are distinctly different.
You may hate your son or you may hate your father.... God has no such sin to battle.
I'll remind you that Jesus Christ told a group of Abraham's descendent that they would die in their sins. I reminded you of this in my reply to you. You're ignoring this. I wonder why..........
Did you even read what you wrote/pasted?
So you offered a young bull on your alter somewhere? May I ask where your altar is? Did you build it yourself? I assume that bull is still dead somewhere......
You're disparaging Jesus Christ with your beliefs. Peter's confession is all that Peter knew. Peter later denied Christ. There was much more to learn of Christ than what Peter knew. Many are "still in the womb" till "Christ be formed in them"....
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
Gal 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
civic
Well-known member
There are so many passages in the gospels where Jesus places Himself equal with the Father as God. This is why the Jews on many occasions tried stoning Him for blasphemy. This is an undeniable fact we read throughout His earthly ministry.
civic
Well-known member
Peter below identifies Jesus as His God and Savior. Paul does this in His writings as does the Apostle John in His epistle.
2 Peter 1:1
τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
2 Peter 1:11
τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
2 Peter 1:1
our God and Savior, Jesus Christ
2 Peter 1:11
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
We have a second person possessive pronoun "Our" modifying two different improper nouns (God and Savior) joined by "and" (Kia) to identify a proper noun (Jesus) [Granville/Sharp's]. Therefore, by basic grammar, we are identifying Jesus as God and Savior. We don't even have to know the Greek to see that Jesus is being called both God and Savior/ Lord and Savior in Peters 2nd Epistle. 2 Peter 2:20 and 2 Peter 3:18 also have the same Greek construction as 1:1 and 1:11.
But for those interested in the Greek here is the comparison of 1:1 and 1:11.
τοῦ is the same.
ἡμῶν is the same.
καὶ is the same.
Σωτῆρος is the same.
Ἰησοῦ is the same.
Χριστοῦ· is the same.
And all in the same order.
The only difference is the noun "Θεοῦ" in v.1, while "Κυρίου" is in v.11.
So if you want to deny that Jesus is "God" ("theou") in v.1, then you have to deny that Jesus is "Lord" ("kuriou") in v.11. Otherwise you are being inconsistent and dishonest with the text. To say otherwise is proof positive one has an agenda when reading scripture and using eisegesis rather than exegesis of the biblical text in question.
hope this helps !!!
But a person should consider what is written, even if it might expose a popular doctrine or philosophy of this world God placed us in that resides in us, Yes?
I find your representation of Pancho unrelated to the posts he has written. It is because of listening to the Scriptures, that he believes the way HE does, at least this is what can be surmised from reading his posts. As the Jesus "of the Bible" tells us.
John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee "the only true God", and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
And again;
John 20: 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
I would post more Words of the Christ, but they are too numerous to post, and the post would be too large. Clearly Jesus understood the difference between Himself, and His Father. No doubt they were of the same mind.
These descendants you speak of, were they not those men who Jesus spoke of in Mark?
Mark 7: 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment "of God", that ye may keep "your own tradition".
Wow PY, because Ponch posted the Christ inspired Words of David, you say these things?
Not the Jesus Christ "of the Bible". How is telling the Truth in Scriptures, disparaging anyone, except maybe this world's religions.
Psalms 2: 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Heb. 1: 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Matt. 3: 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matt. 17: 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him".
1 John 4: 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent "his Son" to be the propitiation for our sins.
John 5: 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Even satan knows who Jesus is.
Mark 5: 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
How is Poncho disparaging Christ by simply telling the Biblical Truth about Christ, trusts HE Himself has declared.
John 14: 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
And how is worshiping God disparaging the Son of God?
John 4: 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
If Jesus is the Prophesied Christ, shouldn't men listen to His Own Words concerning who to worship?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Impossible. The Scriptures are clear. No interpretation needed. Accepting the clearly written and understandable statements made by the prophets, apostles, and Jesus Christ Himself leave no room for contrary claims concerning the importance of Jesus Christ. No one but God Incarnate can save mankind. He appealed to a bull that is dead in what He quoted for forgiveness. Only the death of God Incarnate could grant Eternal life to sinful humanity.
No one said there wasn't a difference between the Son and The Father. There is most certainly a difference. However, they can still be "ONE".
Which is why I said what I said. Your equation denies this. Jesus speaks as a Son. The Father speaks as a Father. In Unity, they speaks as ONE. There is not separation between them at all. None.
You have your religion Civic, one that promotes and implies many things not found in scriptures, as has been shown to you over and over, such as Abraham, Isaac, Caleb, Joshua, Zacharias, Simeon and others cannot enter the Kingdom of God because they were not "born again". And that no man born before John the Baptist has ever been "born again". Now you are free to promote such things, and certainly Jesus warns of such men "who come in His Name", but should you really disparage a man simply because he believes all that is written, over this world's popular religious philosophies?
So just because you don't believe David, when he said in Psalms 110: The LORD said unto "my Lord", Sit thou at "my" right hand, until "I make" thine enemies thy footstool, doesn't mean David isn't speaking God's Truth.
civic
Well-known member
Wow now you are denying the Deity of Christ , yikes. Did you catch this @praise_yeshua
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Yeah. Maybe we can convince him otherwise. Not sure. He seems rather certain. Sad.
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