Romans 4:5 and the justification of the ungodly

[TomL]

Romans 4:5 (ESV) — 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Paul extols how the ungodly may be justified.

Through faith the ungodly may be justified

Great new for all the ungodly as even we once were

It seemed to me an innocuous statement all christians could agree on.

Boy was I ever wrong.

I ignited a fire storm on another forum with the statement

"God justifies believers."

I had to contend with posters who claimed God justifies unbelievers

because the verse states God justifies the ungodly

Posters do you have a problem with my statement, do you see it as something controversial

 

[Diserner]

Well you know this was the verse that Martin Luther claimed brought him a great revelation and freedom from trying to attain his own salvation by his constant penance and personal devotions.

But there is a reason a lot of Calvinists actually don't like the element of being justified while we are still ungodly—because it refutes regeneration preceding faith, no regenerate person is ungodly.

We can struggle not to add our self-righteous feelings to our faith, and come with a "dirty rag" faith, a faith that is itself sinful and imperfect—because we really want to contribute something.

 

[TomL]

Well you know this was the verse that Martin Luther claimed brought him a great revelation and freedom from trying to attain his own salvation by his constant penance and personal devotions.

But there is a reason a lot of Calvinists actually don't like the element of being justified while we are still ungodly—because it refutes regeneration preceding faith, no regenerate person is ungodly.

We can struggle not to add our self-righteous feelings to our faith, and come with a "dirty rag" faith, a faith that is itself sinful and imperfect—because we really want to contribute something.

No wonder the forum moderator kept trying to speak of regeneration and actually suspended me for posting too much rebuttal, most all however coming from Calvinist sources, aside of course from multiple verses of scripture.

Well come to think of it. The posters there seemed ok with God justifying the ungodly. It was the statement God justifies the ungodly when they believe and God justifies believers which really set them off.

 

[TomL]

Well you know this was the verse that Martin Luther claimed brought him a great revelation and freedom from trying to attain his own salvation by his constant penance and personal devotions.

But there is a reason a lot of Calvinists actually don't like the element of being justified while we are still ungodly—because it refutes regeneration preceding faith, no regenerate person is ungodly.

We can struggle not to add our self-righteous feelings to our faith, and come with a "dirty rag" faith, a faith that is itself sinful and imperfect—because we really want to contribute something.

Now that I have a little time to think it through - it is difficult when they are coming at you from all sides - I believe they were imagining a scenario where

one is first justified when ungodly and unbelieving, then regenerated, and then believing

That would account for their claim unbelievers are justified and their claim I was positing two instances of justification when I stated God justifies believers

and support their belief regeneration precedes faith

It is of course unbiblical that God justifies unbelievers, but it would account for their argument

 

[Soyeong]

Romans 4:5 (ESV) — 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Paul extols how the ungodly may be justified.

Through faith the ungodly may be justified

Great new for all the ungodly as even we once were

It seemed to me an innocuous statement all christians could agree on.

Boy was I ever wrong.

I ignited a fire storm on another forum with the statement

"God justifies believers."

I had to contend with posters who claimed God justifies unbelievers

because the verse states God justifies the ungodly

Posters do you have a problem with my statement, do you see it as something controversial

While Paul denied that we can earn our justification as a wage (Romans 4:1-5), he also said that only doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to be a doer of the law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31).

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed His command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his justification as a wage as the result of His obedience (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were expressing his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

So we become someone who has faith, someone who is a doer of the law, and someone who will be justified all at the same time, anyone who is not one is also not the others. God justifies the ungodly in the sense that we are not required to become believers or godly before we can become justified and the moment before we were justified we were unbelievers and ungodly, but the moment that we become justified that is no longer true.

 

[Rockson]

Romans 4:5 (ESV) — 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Paul extols how the ungodly may be justified.

Through faith the ungodly may be justified

Great new for all the ungodly as even we once were

It seemed to me an innocuous statement all christians could agree on

You would think so wouldn't you. I would.

 

[Rockson]

Well come to think of it. The posters there seemed ok with God justifying the ungodly. It was the statement God justifies the ungodly when they believe and God justifies believers which really set them off.

Sure. They refuse to accept that the exhortation to believe should ever mean that. They're wanting to say believing has been dropped upon one. For them the gospels are just God coming back reporting what he did. All which is is because God ordained it. Problem is we have the Lord giving exhortations for a great many things Funny how he'd be playing such a game of make believe. Of course Calvinism is wrong.

 

[TomL]

Sure. They refuse to accept that the exhortation to believe should ever mean that. They're wanting to say believing has been dropped upon one. For them the gospels are just God coming back reporting what he did. All which is is because God ordained it. Problem is we have the Lord giving exhortations for a great many things Funny how he'd be playing such a game of make believe. Of course Calvinism is wrong.

Clearly scripture refutes their claim

Romans 4:5 (NASB 2020) — 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Even the verse which brought about the argument

 

[TomL]

While Paul denied that we can earn our justification as a wage (Romans 4:1-5), he also said that only doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to be a doer of the law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31).

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed His command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his justification as a wage as the result of His obedience (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were expressing his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

So we become someone who has faith, someone who is a doer of the law, and someone who will be justified all at the same time, anyone who is not one is also not the others. God justifies the ungodly in the sense that we are not required to become believers or godly before we can become justified and the moment before we were justified we were unbelievers and ungodly, but the moment that we become justified that is no longer true.

Paul's aim in Romans 2 is not to posit righteousness by law keeping but to show the Jews were guilty under the law. The Jews had the law but they were guilty under the law not being able to keep it

The idea God justifies unbelievers is simply not biblical

Rom 3:26
It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Rom 3:28
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Rom 3:30
since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Rom 4:5
And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Rom 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 2:16
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Gal 3:8
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”

Gal 3:11
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Gal 3:24
So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

 

[Diserner]

The idea God justifies unbelievers is simply not biblical

Yes, and that disproves the Free Grace position.

 

[TomL]

Yes, and that disproves the Free Grace position.

Is that what they believe?

 

[Diserner]

Is that what they believe?

No Free Grace is an entirely different group.

What is free grace? What is Free Grace Theology? | GotQuestions.org

What is free grace? What is Free Grace Theology? Is free grace the opposite of lordship salvation?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[TomL]

No Free Grace is an entirely different group.

What is free grace? What is Free Grace Theology? | GotQuestions.org

What is free grace? What is Free Grace Theology? Is free grace the opposite of lordship salvation?

www.gotquestions.org

Oh that is more like what I thought. I thought you were indicating an additional movement of thought within the group. I remember some of the responses John MacArthur got on the lordship salvation issue

 

[jeremiah1five]

Romans 4:5 (ESV) — 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Paul extols how the ungodly may be justified.

Through faith the ungodly may be justified

Since Saul writes to Jewish Christians it is these jews who were ungodly that God has justified and now, they are Jewish Christians.

Great new for all the ungodly as even we once were

It seemed to me an innocuous statement all christians could agree on.

Boy was I ever wrong.

I ignited a fire storm on another forum with the statement

"God justifies believers."

I had to contend with posters who claimed God justifies unbelievers

because the verse states God justifies the ungodly

Posters do you have a problem with my statement, do you see it as something controversial

Those that are called are justified.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:
and whom he called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom. 8:28–30.

 

[TomL]

Since Saul writes to Jewish Christians it is these jews who were ungodly that God has justified and now, they are Jewish Christians.

Those that are called are justified.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:
and whom he called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom. 8:28–30.

You do realize that the passage is written to

Romans 8:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Those that love God, not unconditionally, selected men.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You do realize that the passage is written to

Romans 8:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Those that love God, not unconditionally, selected men.

Let's be historically and Biblically accurate here.
Non-Hebrews/Jews (Gentiles) have always been the enemies of God's covenant people identified in the Hebrew Scriptures as the children of Abraham. Whether these Gentiles were Philistines, Assyrian, Babylonian, or Roman these non-Hebrew/Jew Gentiles are recorded in Scripture as the enemy of the Jews.

Even during the Roman occupation and conquest of the Jews in their own land there was subtle and overt conflict between these two peoples. Even up to the revolt and eventual destruction of the Second Jewish Temple and the Jewish land, Gentiles have hated the people of God because they were the people of God. And by virtue of the covenants God has with the seed of Abraham every Gentile nation God has sent in judgment of this wayward people was to cause them to return to Him. God has in turn judged these Gentile nations He has used to "school" His people. The events surrounding A.D. 70 is no different.

Before the destruction of the Jewish Temple everything that occurred in Jerusalem and to the Jewish people was in accordance with God's covenants with them. The advent of Israel's Messiah was the fulfillment of covenant promises and prophecies to this people. The New Covenant God had with the Hebrews/Jews was initiated in A.D. 32 on the day of the Jewish Feast of Harvest in which the Promised Holy Spirit arrived, and in keeping with Christ's Promise to build His Church three thousand Jews were born-again and saved. A great many of these Jews that were born-again returned to their homes and synagogues in Gentile lands and took with them an outline of Peter's sermon, the Holy Spirit experiences, and Jesus as well as the good news of Israel's Deliverer and Savior which spread out among the Hebrew people. On this day (Pentecost) natural Olive tree Israel became spiritual Israel. Acts 2:47 says 'Christ added to His Church daily such as should be saved' and as per covenant this meant Jews.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. Acts 5:31.

the Book of Acts is a history of the acts of the Holy Spirit upon the Jewish people. Jews were being saved and added daily to the Jewish Church Christ was building. Even a "great company of priests were obedient to the newfound faith" in Israel (Acts 6.) The first martyr was a Jew named "Stephen" and this was conducted by his fellow Jews, specifically, a man named Saul (Acts 7, 9.) In time Saul, a Hebrew of the Hebrews, a rabbi and Pharisee of the Law became saved and in keeping with his command by the Lord, wherever he went he went into the Jewish synagogues preaching to the Jews that this "Jesus" was their long-awaited Messiah, Redeemer, and King. The whole record of Acts records people, places, things, and events that took place among the Jewish people, whether Gentiles who were allies with Israel (proselytes and God-Fearers), to Hellenized Jews in Ephesus, Galatia, Corinth, and the other places where the Jewish Church thrived that Saul visited and wrote to. Acts records the salvation of the Jewish people. The Jewish Council of Acts 15 is presided over by Jews at Jerusalem to discuss the trickling in of non-circumcised, non-covenant Gentiles whom God was bringing to salvation. Their decision? Giving these Gentiles instruction to obey certain aspects of the Mosaic Law.

Jews, Jews, and more Jews were being added the Jewish Church Christ was building:

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: Act 21:19–20.

These things continued for four decades until the destruction of the Jewish Temple in which at this time the "ism" of Judaism ended. But salvation among Gentiles continued as a new era was being initiated by God: The Times of the Gentiles.

Although Gentiles were coming to Christ they had no Scripture, no way of understanding the specific Hebrew roots of Messiah, and to see more Gentiles coming to the faith and the fact that Israel and their Temple was destroyed it was only a natural transition in their minds to believe the God of Abraham has 'cast away' His people and a "new Israel" was coming to ascendancy to replace the Jews in the redemptive plan of God. Their hatred of Jews became part of their attitude towards the Jewish people and the basis of their doctrine which was forming into the 3rd, 4th, and 5th centuries and beyond. Even up to today. A theology which unmoored itself from its Hebrew roots and became a Gentile church and a new religion in and of its own making. Through the centuries all their theology of the things of God were re-interpreted with a Gentile mindset, a theology which has reached down to today and has infected even your mind and the minds of Gentile Christians with a false belief that Gentiles has replaced Israel, or that Gentiles are the centerpiece of God's salvation to the world. But these things are not true.

God has covenant with the children of Abraham. God has intentionally blinded the eyes and minds of Israel to bring in Gentiles but there will come a day very soon in which God will judge the Gentile nations and the last time I looked, Gentile Christians live in these nations that will soon come under judgment of God just as did the Assyrians, and the Babylonians, and the Romans. When we see the Jews coming back into their own land as prophesied and the Jews retaking Jerusalem, Jesus said it will be this sign of His impending arrival and a restoration of the Hebrew people back to God. Peter, the apostle to the Jews wrote:

For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. 1 Peter 2:25.

These things are historically and Biblically true and to deny these things is to make shipwreck of your faith. Jesus said, "Salvation is of the Jews," and very soon that salvation will return to Israel and as Saul said in Romans, "All Israel shall be saved."

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Rom. 11:25–29.

To you I write that you get your thinking aligned with the Word of God. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. God still has prophecies to fulfill towards His covenant people Israel. There are still the prophecies of Revelation that will soon come upon the Jewish people, and they will increase while the Gentile church decreases.
As I said above, these things I write are historically and Biblically true. The question remains: Do you believe?

My response to you could not be answered with only a paragraph or even two paragraphs. If you are honest with history and the Biblical record, then you will know that what I say is true.

 

[TomL]

Let's be historically and Biblically accurate here.
Non-Hebrews/Jews (Gentiles) have always been the enemies of God's covenant people identified in the Hebrew Scriptures as the children of Abraham. Whether these Gentiles were Philistines, Assyrian, Babylonian, or Roman these non-Hebrew/Jew Gentiles are recorded in Scripture as the enemy of the Jews.

Even during the Roman occupation and conquest of the Jews in their own land there was subtle and overt conflict between these two peoples. Even up to the revolt and eventual destruction of the Second Jewish Temple and the Jewish land, Gentiles have hated the people of God because they were the people of God. And by virtue of the covenants God has with the seed of Abraham every Gentile nation God has sent in judgment of this wayward people was to cause them to return to Him. God has in turn judged these Gentile nations He has used to "school" His people. The events surrounding A.D. 70 is no different.

Before the destruction of the Jewish Temple everything that occurred in Jerusalem and to the Jewish people was in accordance with God's covenants with them. The advent of Israel's Messiah was the fulfillment of covenant promises and prophecies to this people. The New Covenant God had with the Hebrews/Jews was initiated in A.D. 32 on the day of the Jewish Feast of Harvest in which the Promised Holy Spirit arrived, and in keeping with Christ's Promise to build His Church three thousand Jews were born-again and saved. A great many of these Jews that were born-again returned to their homes and synagogues in Gentile lands and took with them an outline of Peter's sermon, the Holy Spirit experiences, and Jesus as well as the good news of Israel's Deliverer and Savior which spread out among the Hebrew people. On this day (Pentecost) natural Olive tree Israel became spiritual Israel. Acts 2:47 says 'Christ added to His Church daily such as should be saved' and as per covenant this meant Jews.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. Acts 5:31.

the Book of Acts is a history of the acts of the Holy Spirit upon the Jewish people. Jews were being saved and added daily to the Jewish Church Christ was building. Even a "great company of priests were obedient to the newfound faith" in Israel (Acts 6.) The first martyr was a Jew named "Stephen" and this was conducted by his fellow Jews, specifically, a man named Saul (Acts 7, 9.) In time Saul, a Hebrew of the Hebrews, a rabbi and Pharisee of the Law became saved and in keeping with his command by the Lord, wherever he went he went into the Jewish synagogues preaching to the Jews that this "Jesus" was their long-awaited Messiah, Redeemer, and King. The whole record of Acts records people, places, things, and events that took place among the Jewish people, whether Gentiles who were allies with Israel (proselytes and God-Fearers), to Hellenized Jews in Ephesus, Galatia, Corinth, and the other places where the Jewish Church thrived that Saul visited and wrote to. Acts records the salvation of the Jewish people. The Jewish Council of Acts 15 is presided over by Jews at Jerusalem to discuss the trickling in of non-circumcised, non-covenant Gentiles whom God was bringing to salvation. Their decision? Giving these Gentiles instruction to obey certain aspects of the Mosaic Law.

Jews, Jews, and more Jews were being added the Jewish Church Christ was building:

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: Act 21:19–20.

These things continued for four decades until the destruction of the Jewish Temple in which at this time the "ism" of Judaism ended. But salvation among Gentiles continued as a new era was being initiated by God: The Times of the Gentiles.

Although Gentiles were coming to Christ they had no Scripture, no way of understanding the specific Hebrew roots of Messiah, and to see more Gentiles coming to the faith and the fact that Israel and their Temple was destroyed it was only a natural transition in their minds to believe the God of Abraham has 'cast away' His people and a "new Israel" was coming to ascendancy to replace the Jews in the redemptive plan of God. Their hatred of Jews became part of their attitude towards the Jewish people and the basis of their doctrine which was forming into the 3rd, 4th, and 5th centuries and beyond. Even up to today. A theology which unmoored itself from its Hebrew roots and became a Gentile church and a new religion in and of its own making. Through the centuries all their theology of the things of God were re-interpreted with a Gentile mindset, a theology which has reached down to today and has infected even your mind and the minds of Gentile Christians with a false belief that Gentiles has replaced Israel, or that Gentiles are the centerpiece of God's salvation to the world. But these things are not true.

God has covenant with the children of Abraham. God has intentionally blinded the eyes and minds of Israel to bring in Gentiles but there will come a day very soon in which God will judge the Gentile nations and the last time I looked, Gentile Christians live in these nations that will soon come under judgment of God just as did the Assyrians, and the Babylonians, and the Romans. When we see the Jews coming back into their own land as prophesied and the Jews retaking Jerusalem, Jesus said it will be this sign of His impending arrival and a restoration of the Hebrew people back to God. Peter, the apostle to the Jews wrote:

For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. 1 Peter 2:25.

These things are historically and Biblically true and to deny these things is to make shipwreck of your faith. Jesus said, "Salvation is of the Jews," and very soon that salvation will return to Israel and as Saul said in Romans, "All Israel shall be saved."

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Rom. 11:25–29.

To you I write that you get your thinking aligned with the Word of God. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. God still has prophecies to fulfill towards His covenant people Israel. There are still the prophecies of Revelation that will soon come upon the Jewish people, and they will increase while the Gentile church decreases.
As I said above, these things I write are historically and Biblically true. The question remains: Do you believe?

My response to you could not be answered with only a paragraph or even two paragraphs. If you are honest with history and the Biblical record, then you will know that what I say is true.

What has that to do with this

Romans 8:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Those that love God, not unconditionally, selected men.

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 4:5 (ESV) — 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Paul extols how the ungodly may be justified.

Through faith the ungodly may be justified

Great new for all the ungodly as even we once were

It seemed to me an innocuous statement all christians could agree on.

Boy was I ever wrong.

I ignited a fire storm on another forum with the statement

"God justifies believers."

I had to contend with posters who claimed God justifies unbelievers

because the verse states God justifies the ungodly

Posters do you have a problem with my statement, do you see it as something controversial

They were Justified while being ungodly, unbelieving. The ungodly elect were Justified before God by Christ dying for them Rom 5:6-9

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

[Grace ambassador]

op: justification of the ungodly?
Precious friends, all I know is, I "once was lost by now I am found," and,
According To Pure/Preserved Scriptures:

1) When I was ungodly, this applied:

"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ Died for the ungodly."​

(Romans 5:6)​

+

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the​

lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and​

profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,"​

(1 Timothy 1:9)​

​

2) And, while ungodly, then this:

"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we​

might be Justified by faith." (Galatians 3:24)​

​

3) Then, "in the twinkling of an eye"?:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that Justifieth​

the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)​

(cp Rom 3-5; 1Co 6:11; Col 1:14; Eph 2:5-10)​

​

4) What? "keep the [ legalist's ] law * for salvation?:

"Christ Hath Redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a​

curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"​

(Galatians 3:13 cp Gal 2:16, 3:11; 1Ti 1:7)​

5) Conclusion:

"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving​

divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one​

another. But after that The Kindness and Love of God our Saviour toward man​

appeared,​

​

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but According To His Mercy​

He Saved us, By The Washing Of Regeneration, And Renewing Of The Holy Ghost;​

Which He Shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being​

Justified By His Grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."​

(Titus 3:3-7)​

Thus, I see No problem with "What God Hath Wrought In me", but I do see a great
problem with (surely Not on this wonderful forum?) endless arguments, accusations,
"biting and devouring one another", strife, vainglory, and puffiness, about exactly
"How God Did What He Did," and:

Even If I don't understand the "Exact Details" then I just move along with Him, In my
"Grace Through faith ( which worketh By LOVE )" walk with:

"For My Thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways​

My Ways, Saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the​

earth, so are My Ways Higher than your ways, and My Thoughts ​

Than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)​

Amen.

* There are plenty of God's Grace Commandments to "obey for rewards" in

Romans Through Philemon!​

 

[jeremiah1five]

What has that to do with this

Romans 8:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Those that love God, not unconditionally, selected men.

It has EVERYTHING to do with "this."
The Bible records Yahweh's Redemptive history. From the first prophecy of Elohim's Redeemer in Genesis 3:15, to the separations of Yahweh's people from the rest of the Adamites beginning in Genesis 12 and then again in Genesis 17, and culminating with the creation of two ethnic peoples in Genesis 17 (Hebrew and non-Hebrew Gentiles) in which Yahweh set apart Abram the Hebrew and his eventual seed through Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob's twelve sons and their descendants all of which enjoy the blessings and covenant with Abraham. God has made no covenant with these non-Hebrew Gentiles. None.

Later, Yahweh continues with His people and their progressive redemption by delivering the children of Israel from their bondage in Egypt as stated in the dark prophecy to Abraham in Genesis 15. Here, Yahweh took His people into the desert, Made a companion covenant with them in which He gave them His Law for living and life as well as instructions directly related to His worship, and continued His Promise to send a Redeemer, Messiah, and King.

In time God kept His promises made to the children of Israel and sent their Redeemer, who was crucified, but that through this act of God has now been given the authority and the means upon which to finally save His Chosen people Israel. All this is historical and Biblical.

You post this passage and interpret it with a Gentile mindset, as though this letter is written to Gentile at Rome. It isn't. The oracles of God are given to His Covenant people, and this identifies Jews who have been baptized into the body of Christ through the Holy Spirit of Promise, a Holy Spirit Promised to Yahweh's people as per covenant.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:26–28.

The context of "those that love God" are to the Jews. In fact, Jewish Christians.
First thing to understand is that in Hebrew Scripture God calls His people "saints."
Second, the Greek text has the definite article in front of the word "called" making the "called" a specific group of people, in other words, the children of Israel who were called by Yahweh out of Egypt. The same "called" used of baby Jesus whom Yahweh called out of Egypt. Thus, all the discussion of the history of the Jewish people Saul brings up in his letter to Jewish Christians at Rome, all the discussion of their culture, Abraham, Moses, the Law, the Tabernacle, the prophets and their prophecies, the bringing up of Temple practices and everything having to do with Yahweh's planned and Promised redemption of His covenant people are described written in this letter things no hard-core, uncircumcised, non-covenant Gentile would know. To understand all Saul writes about one would have to have a deep working knowledge of the Hebrews and their way of life, which is something Roman, Scythian, Greek Gentiles would not know.

I mentioned the history and the Biblical of Yahweh's covenants with this people, the apple of His eye, but you miss its teaching because you have been groomed and indoctrinated with an anti-biblical re-interpretation of the Hebrew covenants and the Hebrew Scriptures. Here's the gist of it. Let's see if the Word of God has any effect upon your mind.
From the garden Yahweh has spent six thousand years dealing with a certain group of people called the Hebrews/Jews. Yahweh has made covenant promises with this people all beginning with Abraham. Yahweh has enjoined this people in three salvation covenants, sent prophets, gave the His Law, and raised them up as though they are His only child, and they are. Yet, after all this time spent dealing with this people and finally taking them into a New Covenant - one made with the Hose of Israel - that once this New Covenant has been initiated and sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise that His first words in this covenant era of redemption of Israel are to hard-core, uncircumcised, non-covenant, idol-worshiping Roman, Scythian, and Greek Gentiles???

LOL.

As I said, you need to bring your doctrine and beliefs in line with the historical and Biblical record of Yahweh's redemption of His CHOSEN people the Jews.
Shortly, the Times of the Gentiles will end, and Yahweh will turn His attention back to Israel, remove their blindness, send the two witnesses to lead them into ways of everlasting, and they will come to realize that the writings from Matthew to Revelation were meant for them, and Christ will pick up where He left off at the destruction of the Jewish Temple and began anew to rebuild His Church as per prophecy and covenant for Yahweh still has many prophecies and covenant particulars to fulfill towards His covenant people.
All that Gentile propaganda you've been indoctrinated in is dung when compared to the true historical and Biblical history of Yahweh's redemption of His covenant people the Jews.

THAT'S what it has to do with Romans 8:28, and all of Saul's letters to his Jewish Christian brethren. Stop reading the Bible with a Gentile mindset and, just maybe you'll come to the knowledge of the truth.
I said, maybe.