praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You're hilarious. You just established the necessity of the Gospel and don't even realize it.
Calvinists and their "Hodge Conjectures".....
You're always leaving out everything....
Right Faith..vs Wrong Faith
- Thread starter Behold
- Start date
Calvinists and their "Hodge Conjectures".....
You're always leaving out everything....
civic
Well-known member
I presented exegesis and you on the other hand the expected eisegesis.
as the saying goes: the text without the context is a pretext for a proof text. You have nothing but proof texts.
hope this helps !!!
I presented exegesis and you on the other hand the expected eisegesis.
as the saying goes: the text without the context is a pretext for a proof text. You have nothing but proof texts.
hope this helps !!!
You presented no such thing. LOL
Let us know, 4.0, when your going to tell us what the context actually is, in your mind, and how you come to reach that conclusion.
civic
Well-known member
lol my posts are cogent, loaded with scripture upon scripture, precept upon precept showing the flaws and inconsistencies with tulip from the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles.
This mornings posts are self evident of those facts. You on the other hand only have questions and no answers.
no exegesis from any passage only presuppositions. next..................
I answer every question presented to me. You on the other hand dodge and weave or ignore all together. Apparently a trait with those with 4.0 years experience.lol my posts are cogent, loaded with scripture upon scripture, precept upon precept showing the flaws and inconsistencies with tulip from the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles.
This mornings posts are self evident of those facts. You on the other hand only have questions and no answers.
next..................
A great example would be "who is Gos responsible to"? Crickets
civic
Well-known member
projecting and dodging again- welcome to GroundHog Day.
stuck on repeat.Put the mirror down 4.0projecting and dodging again- welcome to GroundHog Day.
By the way, who is God responsible to??
atpollard
Well-known member
Technically, you have just proven that UNIVERSALISM is false. Calvinism affirms that the REPROBATE will not accept God's offer. As John 3:19-20 puts it "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed." - John 3:19-20 [NKJV]
[We Particular Baptists call that "Total Inability" ... the reason why "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;" - John 6:44 [NKJV]]
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You've confirmed that the Gospel draws. The preaching of the cross draws. The Father chose the Son. Not you. The Son.
Don't ignore your own logic and blame God for your own failures.
John 20: 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
It's foolishness, and worldly to make the statements you made about "my claims" or to imply something as stupid as my post suggesting I "Owned Jesus". What spirit inspired you to make such a salacious and false representation about "my claims"?
2 Cor. 11: 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
I believe Jesus "of the Bible", is the Christ who became a man as prophesied. I believe what God Inspired to be written of Him. "Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore (Because of this) God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."
It is clear, according to the Scriptures I posted, that this Jesus was a "man of Faith" in my God and His God.
It is this Faith that I strive for, the Faith which was in Christ Jesus, my Jesus.
Who became a mortal flesh and blood man.
I have not denied that Jesus is the Prophesied Christ, the Holy One of Israel, the "Rock" that fed and watered Israel in the wilderness when HE was "up where HE was before". Christ, the Holy One of Israel, who laid down His immortal life for His People and became a flesh and blood man, like unto His Brethren, having Faith in His Father and my Father, who "in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared"
Yes, This Christ, is the Christ "of the Bible", in my view.
So then your Jesus risked nothing, denied nothing, fought against nothing, had no struggles with the flesh. He overcame, not by faith in God, or submission to Gods Word or humility, this Jesus you promote only "looked" like a man. But when the going got tough as it does for all men, this jesus kicked in God powers no other human ever had access to, and this is how He overcame sin. And His Father was in on the deception, because even though your Jesus was incapable of sin or death because her wasn't flesh and blood like unto his brethren, God still anointed him above all other humans.
In the mainstream religions of this world, it's like God is a coach of a team, and His son is also on the team. And God withholds performance enhancing drugs from all the members on the teach except His son, who is the only one allowed to take the performance enhancing drugs. Then when the Son outperforms all the other men, not because He worked harder, or was more disciplined, or followed the rules everyone else had to follow, but because HE had access to drugs no other member had access to, the coach glorifies Him and gives Him the trophy.
This popular mainstream religious philosophy you and "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, have adopted and are promoting to others demeans the Life of Jesus the man in my view, implies that He cheated and the whole Life of Jesus was just a deception, as He couldn't die, He didn't lay down His Life, and couldn't sin because HE wasn't a flesh and blood man, but an immortal God.
And God was in on the scam, because God Glorified Him above all other humans, not because He "Yielded Himself" a servant to obey God, as the Scriptures say, but because he was God.
I don't believe the Jesus "of the bible" wasn't a flesh and blood man, like unto other men. My Christ became a man and dwelled among us.
Is. 7: 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. 15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know "to refuse the evil", and choose the good.
Why must you demean and discredit His dedication to God, His Father and my Father.
Your Jesus was a supernatural being that looked like a man, but had God powers no other human has ever had access to. I don't believe this represents the Jesus "of the Bible".
Then it's not just the Author or Hebrews you must reject, Isaiah knew Jesus would grow in the knowledge of God as a child, and Luke too.
Luke 2: 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
Isn't this why His Ministry didn't start until He was 30? If you were right, He would have been teaching to "Repent" at the age of 12. But He didn't because HE needed to "grow in wisdom".
I understand how popular Calvinism is, that God made Jesus obey Him, Jesus didn't have a choice. Or other religions of this world who preach that Jesus wasn't corruptible, that the whole "satan tempted Jesus" thing was just a hoax, a show, "Hollywood".
I know how popular this Jesus is, with his long flowing hair and perfect profile. A Jesus who had no Faith, that risked nothing. I just don't believe this is the Christ "of the Bible".
That isn't true. The very foundation of your posts is based on the philosophy that Jesus wasn't like us. You said yourself that he didn't need to learn anything as a child in order to know how to reject the good and refuse the evil.
Even Paul understood the error in this philosophy you are promoting.
Phil. 2: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he "humbled himself", and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore (Because of these things that Jesus Did) God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
So now, in order for us to be in agreement, I must reject not only Hebrews, but Isaiah, and Paul's words as well.
Why would I do that?
He certainly had more Faith than others. More humility, more Love for His Father and my Father. More dedication, more discipline, more of God's Love. I agree with all of this. But to say HE overcame sin because HE had access to powers no other human had access to, is simply a misrepresentation of the Jesus "of the Bible".
Well, according to His Own Words, there are "many" who call Him Lord, Lord that He doesn't even know. This is why it's so important to live by "Every Word" of God, and not the religious philosophies and traditions of men "who come in Christ's Name". Paul said to "Beware" of them.
You are certainly right about me, but you are wrong about the Jesus "of the Bible".
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Other's can read and judge for themselves. I don't care what you think of me. It never even entered my thoughts. You disparage Jesus Christ and that is all that matters to me.
Most people have an idol they "imagine" of Jesus. You do too. That "imagination" doesn't save.
There is a difference between "experiencing" something and actually "knowing" something. Jesus well knew everything. He EXPERIENCED our humanity.
Unlike you, I'm not going to "bloviate" in response.
Instead of dragging Christ Jesus DOWN... .to your sinful level, you NEED to praise Him for exactly WHO HE IS.....
I don't disparage the Jesus "of the Bible". I understand the great effort HE engaged in to be perfect, even as His Father in heaven is perfect. That is why I post His and His father's inspired words and not my own.
I posted God's Inspired Words defining the Jesus "of the bible", but you ignored them. Why would a man do this?
"Our" humanity? What other "humanity" is there? Where does the Bible say Jesus experienced "our humanity"? Isn't "ALL" humanity Flesh and Blood?
Another spirit filled reply.
I posted God's definition of Who He is, but you refused to even address God's Word, instead choosing to promote your own words. How is posting and believing God's Word over yours, "Dragging Christ down"?
And why would you do this???? To preserve and promote Jesus as a man that didn't have Faith, a "Man" that didn't have to learn anything, including obedience? A Christ that didn't risk His Life for anyone? That didn't "Yield Himself" a servant to obey God?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I ignored what you claimed. Nothing more. Jesus is a Divine Person devoid of any necessity external to Himself.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
So it is "spirit filled" when you do it?
I told the truth. So be it.
You believe Jesus was incomplete without the Incarnation. It is a rather simple issue.
Do you know what the word "experience" means? I used the word "experience" and you reference His experience in flesh and bone.....
The Scriptures teach God Rewarded the flesh and blood man who the Christ, the Rock, the Holy One of Israel became, because of His obedience as a flesh and blood man. I posted the Scriptures which show it was His Father and my Father which rewarded my Jesus for His steadfast Faith and obedience to Him, as a mortal Flesh and Blood man.
You are preaching that HE overcame sin and temptation because God gave Him supernatural powers that God withholds from all other humans. Then when Jesus simply did what anyone could do if they had His Supernatural powers, God gave Him a name above all other humans.
I am merely pointing out that such a description of Jesus and His Father, although popular in this world's religions, contradicts the Scriptures about them, some of which I posted. And this popular religious philosophy demeans His Sacrifice as not a sacrifice at all, in that HE risked nothing at all for any of us. That HE didn't choose the Good and reject the Evil, rather, HE was created incorruptible. That He wasn't "learned of the Father" growing in the knowledge and wisdom of God for 30 years prior to His Ministry, because HE had supernatural powers God withheld from all other humans. He never experienced human "faith" as a way to overcome in this world, because He wasn't a flesh and blood, rather, a supernatural being that didn't need "Faith" in His God and my God, like the rest of us.
And this deceptive religious philosophy you have adopted and are now promoting to others, fits nicely into another deception promoted by the mainstream religions of this world, that God placed impossible to obey Laws, a "Yoke of bondage", on the necks of those who trusted Him. Laws that only a God can obey.
I don't believe these popular religious philosophies are "wrought in God" and can prove this understanding with Scriptures, based on what the scriptures actually say. Through much suffering and tribulation, the Jesus "of the Bible" endured, overcame temptations as a man.
Phil. 3: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
2 Cor. 1: 5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
Heb. 2: 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
1 Peter 1: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand "the sufferings of Christ", and the glory that should follow.
1 Peter 4: 12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers "of Christ's sufferings"; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
I advocate that men reject this world's religions who promote that Jesus had supernatural powers God withheld from all other humans, and never needed to rule over His Flesh, or needed Faith in His father and my Father like the rest of us, because He wasn't human as other men.
atpollard
Well-known member
It sounds noble, but I think it denies the DIVINITY of the incarnate Christ. Therein lies what the Lutherans like to call the "MYSTERY" ... that point where logic fails and one is placed face to face with pure faith: FULLY God and FULLY man (not either/or; BOTH at the same time).
QED:
- Jesus is EXACTLY like us.
- Jesus is NOTHING like us.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Better stated FAITH vs NO FAITH. FAITH is not "Intellectual assent" (belief), since belief has no "substance", and is "evidence" of nothing meaningful. (Heb 11:1). FAITH comes according to Rom 10:17 - God's WORD to you.
I truly understand what this world's religions teach about Jesus being immortal, and mortal at the same time. I just don't believe the Scriptures promote that Jesus, for the reasons I outlined.
Jesus is exactly like us because like us, HE too had the choice to refuse the evil, and do the good.
Jesus is nothing like us because HE never chose the evil, and we have.
The point being, He, the Jesus "of the Bible", didn't cheat as a man resisting temptation by kicking in God powers no other human has ever had access to. And yet, the Jesus promoted by this world's religions did just that, and they preach God was a party to this deception. I agree that there is a mystery, I just don't find where Jesus ever said He, as a man, was fully God. He prayed to God, He is not at the right hand of God, spoke God's Words and not His own, He walked in the Works God before ordained that men should walk in them.
But He, that is, the Jesus "of the Bible" never claimed He was immortal God.
Matt. 19: 16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
I know I am bucking ancient religious traditions and philosophy promoted by "many" who come in Christ's Name, who call Jesus Lord, Lord. I have just come to believe that Scriptures, not this world's religions, should be who teaches me about God.
atpollard
Well-known member
- John 14:8-9 [NASB] Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and [yet] you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how [can] you say, 'Show us the Father'?
- John 10:25-33 [NASB] Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. "I and the Father are one." The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out [to be] God."
- John 17:11 [NASB] "I am no longer in the world; and [yet] they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, [the name] which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We [are.]
- John 17:21 [NASB] that they may all be one; even as You, Father, [are] in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
"never claimed"
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- John 14:8-9 [NASB] Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and [yet] you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how [can] you say, 'Show us the Father'?
I didn't say "show me the Father". Jesus was perfect, even as His Father in heaven was perfect. As he also said, but you must also ignore,
John 10: 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, "I am the Son of God?" 37 If I do not the works "of my Father", believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father "is in me", and "I in him".
John 17: 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee "before the world was".
I get that the image of Jesus, with His Long flowing hair and perfect profile who wasn't a Flesh and Blood "man of Faith" is a popular image, and "many" who come in Christ's Name promote this Jesus, who was "Fully God".
But when a man actually reads what is written, Jesus came to do the Will of His Father and my Father. Not His Own. This is itself, exposes popular religious philosophy regarding Jesus claiming to be Fully God and foolishness, and a deception. I advocate that you might turn away from this world's religions and turn to the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, to be "Learned of the Father" that you might be given to the Jesus "of the Bible".
But even in your own bible, Jesus didn't say HE was God, "He said", not the children of the devil said, but the Jesus of the Bible Himself said "I am the Son of God". What I advocate for is listening to Jesus' Words, not the Pharisees or other popular religious men "Who Profess to know God".
It is written that the husband and wife shall become "ONE", just as the Church of God and God shall become one. It is also written;
1 Cor. 11: 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. And they shall be One.
Nothing in the Scriptures you posted, makes these verses void.
That we also might become "Son's of God" even as Jesus was the Son of God.
I believe every scripture you have posted. But none of them are Jesus calling Himself God, rather, Jesus Glorifies God. Prays to God, Comes to God, Humbles himself in obedience to God. Instead of laughing it up in mockery, perhaps you might take the Word of God a little more seriously.
Yes, God sent His Son Jesus. And Jesus gave us God's Words, and came to do God's Will, "NOT HIS OWN".
John 6: 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth "the Son", and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
"never claimed"
A man should seek the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness, as the Jesus "of the Bible" instructs. Not seek justification for this world's religious philosophies, or the images of God they promote.
