Right Faith..vs Wrong Faith
- Thread starter Behold
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civic
Well-known member
that passage doesn't mention Jesus had faith.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
The conversation in Hebrews 5 is problematic in English. Especially
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Maybe there is a Jesus didn't have faith civic, but I don't believe it is the Jesus "of the Bible". To imply that Jesus didn't believe or have Faith in His Father, or that His Father didn't hear Him when HE prayed, is foolishness in my view.
It is written in Hebrews 11: 6 But without faith "it is impossible to please him": for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
The Jesus "of the Bible" said of Himself;
John 8: 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
This would be impossible without Faith, Yes?
Phil. 2: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore (Because of this Truth) God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Proving that God is a "rewarder of them that diligently seek him".
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
civic
Well-known member
There are no scriptures saying Jesus had faith or was required to have faith. Faith is needed to be saved, Jesus is the Savior and doesn’t need to be saved since He is the one who is Life and gives eternal life to sinners.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Why did Jesus have to "seek God"?
We must because we fail. Jesus.... that is a different story. He never failed. Never. No faith needed. Perfect Unity.
Manasseh
Member
Manasseh
Member
I love that "Jesus never fails" you can count on him. He is who he said he is and he will do and accomplish what he said he will.
I have heard of this Jesus, who wasn't a "man of God" at all, rather, he came to earth as an immortal God with no need for Faith, nor did HE fight against the powers of the air as all flesh and blood men need to do, because he wasn't flesh and blood like you and I. This Jesus risked nothing, he wasn't a man who humbled himself in obedience to God, nor was he a "man of faith". I see images of this Jesus, with his long flowing hair and perfect profile all over this world, including in the manmade shrines of worship made of wood and stone. But I don't worship this image, nor do I believe this manmade image represents the Jesus "of the Bible". My Jesus, was born a mortal human, and "Grew in the knowledge of God" as all men of God must do. He "learned obedience" from the things He suffered, as all men of God must do. He prayed to His God and my God who HE and I both believe/ had Faith could save us from Death. Something all "men of God" would do.
It was this Faith that enabled Him to overcome temptation in this world. And it was this faith that "made him perfect" and qualified Him for the great Honor His Father bestowed upon Him.
I don't believe in a Jesus who wasn't a man like unto his brethren.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Interesting phrase. Care to find this phrase in the Scriptures?
Jesus is Jesus. Your claims concerning Him is between you and Him. However, your claims concerning "ownership" of Jesus is bogus. John the Beloved obvious knew more about Him than you do.
He is the GREAT I AM....
Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM:
Christ was/is incapable of corruption.
Christ was a man but He never was solely just a man.
Christ never was disobedient. He didn't have to learn anything. God Incarnate. You need to leave your understanding of Scripture. The writer of Hebrews didn't know a single thing about English. Nothing. ZERO.
No one said that Jesus wasn't like us. He was. However, He was much more.
That is why we call Him LORD...... and MASTER. That is why we call Him REDEEMER.
Sorry. You're not "master" or "lord" or even "somebody".....
atpollard
Well-known member
Can you define "born again"?
Then we will both know what you think others claim God must give /do before He can give faith.
(... and I will not have to guess at what you mean).
atpollard
Well-known member
So you reject PREVENIENT GRACE (a pre-salvation spiritual blessing from John Wesley and the Methodist branch of the Arminian tree)?
Or are you selective in what spiritual blessings God will not give before we speak the "incantation" of salvation?
atpollard
Well-known member
I started out with God informing me that I would not complete the suicide bomb and effective immediately, I belonged to Him. From this point forward, He said and I did. He was in charge and the details were His to worry about.
How "free will" Arminian was that?
atpollard
Well-known member
Explain how Itzcoatl was drawn?
He was born in AD 1380 and founded the Aztec Empire which he ruled until his death in AD 1440. The Gospel reached the Americas after 1492 (so Itzcoatl was dead by then). As Itzcoatl was cutting the heart out of living victims as an offering to his winged snake god, explain how he was DRAWN to Jesus Christ as part of ALL PEOPLE WITHOUT EXCEPTION.
I don't think he rejects it, he just does not believe it is necessary as his hero does not either.
civic
Well-known member
You don’t understand faith or elect/ chosen.
The word is used 7 times in the N.T. Most by Paul in Romans 9-11 where is contradicts the Calvinists view on election. The Jews ( Gods elect,chosen ) were not saved as Paul pleads for their salvation in Romans 9-11.
Romans 9:11 N-AFS
GRK: ἡ κατ' ἐκλογὴν πρόθεσις τοῦ
NAS: according to [His] choice would stand,
KJV: according to election might stand,
INT: the according to election purpose
Romans 11:5 N-AFS
GRK: λεῖμμα κατ' ἐκλογὴν χάριτος γέγονεν
NAS: according to [God's] gracious choice.
KJV: according to the election of grace.
INT: a remnant according to election of grace there has been
Romans 11:7 N-NFS
GRK: ἡ δὲ ἐκλογὴ ἐπέτυχεν οἱ
NAS: it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained
KJV: but the election hath obtained it,
INT: but [the] elect obtained [it]
Romans 11:28 N-AFS
GRK: δὲ τὴν ἐκλογὴν ἀγαπητοὶ διὰ
NAS: but from the standpoint of [God's] choice they are beloved
KJV: as touching the election, [they are] beloved
INT: however the election beloved on account of
There is nothing clear in your belief of Romans 9-11 its full of contradictions with those chapters and the rest of the Bible and its an assault on the character and nature of God. Your passage support me not you. Do you even know where Paul is quoting from ?
Paul's concern for his fellow countrymen, the Jews/Israel below. Gods chosen people, the elect.
Romans 9
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
Romans 10:1
Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.
Romans 11
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
the Jews are Gods Elect/ Chosen people.
Pauls summary of Romans 9: Faith vs Works is what Paul is addressing in Romans 9. Gentiles ( non elect by faith ) Jews/Israel ( Gods elect,chosen) by works.
Romans 9
That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.
The above is the same teaching in Romans 3 below :
Romans 3
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith. 28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith
Gods grace can be resisted just the opposite of what the reformed teach and what is in tulip.
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Since all men are not saved and Gods grace goes out to all men, Gods grace can be resisted.
Acts 7:51
“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
God the Holy Spirit can be resisted.
Hebrews 10:29
How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Here we see the Spirit of grace resisted, insulted, rejected and trampled under.
Hebrews 6:4-8
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Here we have those receiving Gods grace sharing in the Holy Spirit of grace reject it. They have fallen away permanently from His grace and can no longer repent.
Psalm 78:17;40
But they continued to sin against Him, rebelling in the desert against the Most High. How often they disobeyed Him in the wilderness and grieved Him in the desert!
Here we see them in the wilderness rejecting Gods grace upon them and grieving God in the process.
Resistible Grace- God grace is not irresistible.
Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!
Proverbs 1:24
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,
Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."
Isaiah 66:4
So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."
Limited Atonement not found below anywhere
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
Loraine Boettner has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination,
"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."
1)I have already proven irresistible grace is not true with Acts 7:51
2)I have proven the atonement is not limited- John 1:20, 3:16, 1 Tim 2:4-6, 2 Pet 3:9 and 1 John 2:2
3)I have proven that election is not unconditional- whosever will may come, that means all, everyone from numerous passages. John 1:12 John 3:16
4) I have proven reformed election is unbiblical.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Amen
Proof texting with your errant spin is not proof. It's called question begging.
1) God's grace can be resisted. Until He decides otherwise. FAIL
2) LIMITED atonement, is not only Biblical, but is the only logical conclusion one can reach given the Biblical witness.
Question begging is not proper exegesis
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Do have that in writing somewhere? Any Solas in your life?
