brightfame52
Well-known member
Of course it says that to the believer, they were caused to believe by His Power.
Refuting effectually caused faith
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
You missed the point
Again
Luke 8:13 (LEB) — 13 And those on the rock are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, and these do not have enough root, who believe for a time and in a time of testing fall away.
John 12:40 (LEB) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn, and I heal them.”
It's plain you have no answer
Luke 8:13 (NASB95) — 13 “Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
John 12:40 (NASB95) — 40 “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.”
brightfame52
Well-known member
Already spoke on it, and you couldnt receive it
brightfame52
Well-known member
Ditto
As suspected, you are not able to address the verses.
Luke 8:13 (NASB95) — 13 “Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
John 12:40 (NASB95) — 40 “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.”
Nope
You missed the point
Luke 8:13 (LEB) — 13 And those on the rock are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, and these do not have enough root, who believe for a time and in a time of testing fall away.
John 12:40 (LEB) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn, and I heal them.”
brightfame52
Well-known member
I spoke to you about them. Plus you doing like you always do, just post scriptures without no study
brightfame52
Well-known member
Faith is effectually caused by the Power of God Eph 1:19-20
Also Paul says the Gentiles are being made obedient Rom 15:18
For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
civic
Well-known member
Yes the contradictions are glaring in his theology
But he just ignores them!
Then you have no explanation for these
Luke 8:13 (LEB) — 13 And those on the rock are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, and these do not have enough root, who believe for a time and in a time of testing fall away.
How did these believe on their own or are you going to affirm God's power failed?
John 12:40 (LEB) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn, and I heal them.”
If they cannot believe without God's power, there is no need to harden them.
Hello
Sorry, all you do is run from any scripture contrary to your man-made theology.
civic
Well-known member
Since he can’t refute it the next best thing is to ignore it.
It's the only thing he does when scripture comes against his theology.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Faith is seen to be effectually caused by the fact its the result and fruit of being drawn by God. Both Jn 6:44;12:32 the drawing power causes the ones being drawn, All of them, to become followers of Christ, to be persuaded, to be won over to Him and become a disciple of His.
The word draw in the original helkó: To draw, to drag, Meaning: I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe.
metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας ... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρός ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.)
Now Faith, the noun pistis:
The word draw in the original helkó: To draw, to drag, Meaning: I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe.
metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας ... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρός ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.)
Now Faith, the noun pistis:
4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.
Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).
So I have shown the relation of being drawn with birthing faith, Gods divine persuasion.
Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).
So I have shown the relation of being drawn with birthing faith, Gods divine persuasion.
Um in John 12:32 all men are drawn
John 12:32 (NASB95) — 32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
W.E. Vine This less violent significance, usually present in helkō, but always absent from surō, is seen in the metaphorical use of helkō, to signify drawing by inward power, by Divine impulse, John 6:44; 12:32. So in the Sept., e.g., S. of S., 1:4, and Jer. 31:3, “with lovingkindness have I drawn thee1
• Spiros Zodhiates, Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, “Helkuo is used of Jesus on the cross drawing by His love, not force (Jn. 6:44; 12:32)” [New Testament Lexical Aids].
• A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature: Helkuo – “to draw or attract a person in the direction of values for inner life” attract J 6:44″ [Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker].
• The Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament: helkuo is used metaphorically “to draw mentally and morally, John 6:44; 12:32” [William Mounce].
• Theological Dictionary of the New Testament: “There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God or Christ which goes out to all (12:32) but without which no one can come (6:44). The apparent contradiction shows that both the election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously; the compulsion is not automatic” [Kittel, one-vol., abridged)
• The Greek-English Lexicon to the New Testament: “met., to draw, i.e. to attract, Joh. xii. 32. Cf. Joh. vi. 44” [W.J. Hickie].
• The Complete Word Study Dictionary New testament: Helkuo – “To draw toward without necessarily the notion of force… Is used by Jesus of the drawing of souls unto Him (Joh 6:44; 12:32, to draw or induce to come) [Spiros Zodhiates]
• The Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament: “figuratively, of a strong pull in the mental or moral life draw, attract (JN 6.44)”. [Timothy Friberg, Barbara Friberg, and Neva F. Miller]
When helkuo is examined by the best attested Greek scholarship, as used in John 6, we find that the consistent rendering does not in any way determine its usage to mean “drag” or “force”, and actually militates against that meaning altogether. Hence, the most accurate meaning of helkuo would be to draw – in the sense of God attracting and enabling people towards Christ. This fits perfectly with both chapter 6, and with 12:32, wherein all of the N.T. Greek lexicons and dictionaries collectively agree, removing any ambiguity or doubt to be considered. Of the theologians who have rendered John 6:44 to exclusively mean drag, they have demonstrated a clear lack of exegetical research and evidence to validate their conclusions. These individuals never appeal to multiple and varied lexical references; wherein, they consistently point to other verses (which we have previously cited) that categorically do not fit the context of John 6 and grossly violate the basic rules of grammar and syntax.
Further examination of the text brings us to the idea of God’s drawing upon men to be understood in the terms of irresistibility. The passage in question does not explicitly address this position, as it only states God’s will and action of drawing, without identifying the possibility of men being able to freely accept or reject God’s loving initiative to bring men unto Himself. A primary way to discover any insight into this investigation will be to see how helkuo is used in the Septuagint (LXX) in regards to YHVH’s past dealings with men in the Hebrew Scriptures (O.T). We find in Nehemiah 9:30, “Many years you lasted (helkuo) with them and repeatedly warned them by Your Spirit by the hand of Your prophets, and they did not give ear…”3 The context of this passage within the LXX reveals that YHVH consistently drew and worked to bring Israel unto Himself, but they willfully resisted the helkuo. This gives us clear precedence that the gracious drawing of God can be and has been resisted by the will and actions of men. God could have made Israel irresistibly accept His drawing grace and force them to come and obey His voice, however Scripture demonstrates that He has sovereignly set His economy up to deal with mankind by their willful cooperation to either receive or reject His drawing and longsuffering patience to bring men to Himself.
The Hebrew word from which helkuo is derived, is “masak.” Like the Greek word for draw, it has many meanings based upon its’ context. However, when it comes to YHVH specifically dealing with men, we find the same pattern which helps us to understand why the Greek lexical renderings, each by consensus, posited a gracious drawing – as opposed to the idea of men being dragged into the kingdom of God. We see it used in a clear representation of YHVH’s grace being poured out in declaring,
“I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore, I have drawn (masak) you with lovingkindness” (Jer. 31:3).
Brian R With Editing and correcting
Of course the semantic range of elko does include the idea of influence (Leipzig Albrecht Oepke, ―helko in Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, ed. Ger-hard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich, trans. and ed. Geoffrey W. Bromiley, vol. 2 [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964], 503–4).
77.
Frederick L. Godet comments that
―Helko, to draw, does not necessarily de-note an effectual drawing. This word may refer only to the preaching of the cross throughout the whole world and the action of the Holy Spirit which accompanies it. This heavenly drawing is not irresistible‖ (Commentary on the Gospel of John, trans. Timothy Dwight [n.p.: Funk & Wagnalls, 1893; reprint, Grand Rapids: Zon-dervan, n.d.], 228).
Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich give ―draw and ―attract as the meaning of helko in John 6:44 and 12:32 (A Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 318).
Faith is nowhere stated to be a unilateral gift of God
Faith comes by hearing the word of God
Romans 10:14–17 (NASB95) — 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!” 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
brightfame52
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
Great references proving the biblical doctrine
