PSA as central to the Gospel

[DavidTree]

civic, you badly deceived on your eschatology I see.

The two witnesses of revelation seven are the church of Jesus Christ made up of Jews and Gentiles per John.

Revelation 11:3,4​

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."

Romans 11:17​

“And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;”

The church will be here until the very end, the last day when the last trump (the seventh) shall sound and there be a resurrection BOTH of the good and bad on the last day. See John 5:28,29!

Jacob's trouble has reference to the elect/saints, not literal Israel~there are NO prophecies for "literal/natural" Israel as a nation in the NT, in a good and profitable sense, zero! If you believe otherwise, then prove it with scriptures, which neither you or any man can. I'm 100% confidence you cannot.

Luke 1:33​

“And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”

Has reference "ONLY" to the God's elect/saints, whom Christ shall reign over for ever and ever. You have serious problems I see in a lot of area's.

Daniel 7:27​

“And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.”

Dear Brother @Red Baker and @civic,

We can learn from each other as we allow the Holy Spirit to speak to us thru the Holy Scriptures.
As long as we do not add or take away from "It is written"

The Holy Spirit will NEVER speak to us differing Truth.

JESUS, in fact, did give Prophecy concerning the Jewish people as a nation.
Clear as Day in the OT Prophets, in the Gospel and specifically in Matthew chapter 23

OT Prophet Zechariah 14:1-3
Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,

Matthew 23:37-39
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

 

[DavidTree]

Yes those who reject pre trib

SEE = i can laugh with you because of His great Love for us

 

[DavidTree]

Yes those who reject pre trib

One major discrepancy here:
No one has made BIG $$$ from books/preaching on the Prophecy of the LORD Jesus Christ given to us in Matthew 24:29-31

 

[Joe]

Good Morning

I agree with you and @civic that the FATHER was not the one standing over JESUS furiously whipping Him.

Satan is the prosecutor = the accuser of the Brethren.

You are right. Satan is the prosecutor of the Brethren.

When a King/Judge sentences a criminal to punishment, the King/Judge himself does not carry out the punishment.
The carrying out of the punishment is delegated to lower level servants/employees of the King/Government.

The instrument of punishment was carried out by men of this world who were/are under "the god of this world."

Your analogy only works when a criminal is being punished, not a Savior offering His life for our life.

The story of Job is CRYSTAL CLEAR pictorial evidence of this process.

The scripture says: God is the KING over all of Creation. God Rules in Righteousness and Sin cannot go unpunished.
The penalty for Sin is DEATH.
God therefore, had to punish His Son unto the suffering of death but not for any wrong Jesus committed(HE did no wrong) but for the sins we committed = "behold the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world."

Read below and let's see if your understanding is biblically accurate.

• Was it God's will for His Son to offer His life for our sins? Yes
• Did God predetermine this ahead of time? Oh, yes
• Did God foreknow what would happen and by who? Yes
• Did God use the sinfulness of man led by Satan to be the means to take the life of His Son? Yes
• Did Jesus have a say in this matter? Yes
• Did God take His Son's life for our sins or did Jesus offer His life for our sins? Jesus offered His life.
• Why did our Lord offer His life? "And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Eph 5:2)
• Did God punish His Son through others? No, this is never once mentioned in the bible, nowhere. It is conjecture to think so.
• Did God judge our sin in the bodily death of His Son? Yes, in the sweet smelling aroma of His Son's sacrifice our Heavenly Father judged sin.
• Did the death of His Son pacify God? Yes, in that our sin was judged and God reconciled us to Himself; and this pleased God.

When you read the bible it always states our Lord died for our sins, that He offered up Himself. It never once states our Heavenly Father killed Him for our sins. You will read where our Father predetermined with purpose and by foreknowledge delivered Him over to those who would kill Him, and yet it was ultimately our Lord's decision to give His life for our sins to fulfill our Father's will.

If the punishment for sin is death, then it was our Lord who gave His life over to death of Himself, for the Lord said, "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father." (Joh 10:17-18). You need to understand our Lord sacrificed Himself to the power of death, God did not punish Him with death. He alone gave His life.

Again, no punishment was ever inflicted by our Father upon His own Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. Jesus came from Heaven on a rescue mission, to save us from our own sins by giving an offering of His life for our life. And God fully accepted it! We are bought, ransomed, purchased with the blood of Jesus Christ unto eternal life by the wonderful goodness and grace of our God! We now live with the joy of salvation being gloriously filled with God inside, experiencing a new life as never before, with Him constantly reassuring us because He loves us. We're never alone, but always spiritually in the presence of the Lord. God is our Father and we are truly His children!

God Bless

 

[Selah]

You are right. Satan is the prosecutor of the Brethren.

Your analogy only works when a criminal is being punished, not a Savior offering His life for our life.

Read below and let's see if your understanding is biblically accurate.

• Was it God's will for His Son to offer His life for our sins? Yes
• Did God predetermine this ahead of time? Oh, yes
• Did God foreknow what would happen and by who? Yes
• Did God use the sinfulness of man led by Satan to be the means to take the life of His Son? Yes
• Did Jesus have a say in this matter? Yes
• Did God take His Son's life for our sins or did Jesus offer His life for our sins? Jesus offered His life.
• Why did our Lord offer His life? "And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Eph 5:2)
• Did God punish His Son through others? No, this is never once mentioned in the bible, nowhere. It is conjecture to think so.
• Did God judge our sin in the bodily death of His Son? Yes, in the sweet smelling aroma of His Son's sacrifice our Heavenly Father judged sin.
• Did the death of His Son pacify God? Yes, in that our sin was judged and God reconciled us to Himself; and this pleased God.

When you read the bible it always states our Lord died for our sins, that He offered up Himself. It never once states our Heavenly Father killed Him for our sins. You will read where our Father predetermined with purpose and by foreknowledge delivered Him over to those who would kill Him, and yet it was ultimately our Lord's decision to give His life for our sins to fulfill our Father's will.

If the punishment for sin is death, then it was our Lord who gave His life over to death of Himself, for the Lord said, "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father." (Joh 10:17-18). You need to understand our Lord sacrificed Himself to the power of death, God did not punish Him with death. He alone gave His life.

Again, no punishment was ever inflicted by our Father upon His own Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. Jesus came from Heaven on a rescue mission, to save us from our own sins by giving an offering of His life for our life. And God fully accepted it! We are bought, ransomed, purchased with the blood of Jesus Christ unto eternal life by the wonderful goodness and grace of our God! We now live with the joy of salvation being gloriously filled with God inside, experiencing a new life as never before, with Him constantly reassuring us because He loves us. We're never alone, but always spiritually in the presence of the Lord. God is our Father and we are truly His children!

God Bless

Thank you, Joe. …and the Truth will set you free.

selah

 

[DavidTree]

You are right. Satan is the prosecutor of the Brethren.

Your analogy only works when a criminal is being punished, not a Savior offering His life for our life.

Read below and let's see if your understanding is biblically accurate.

• Was it God's will for His Son to offer His life for our sins? Yes
• Did God predetermine this ahead of time? Oh, yes
• Did God foreknow what would happen and by who? Yes
• Did God use the sinfulness of man led by Satan to be the means to take the life of His Son? Yes
• Did Jesus have a say in this matter? Yes
• Did God take His Son's life for our sins or did Jesus offer His life for our sins? Jesus offered His life.
• Why did our Lord offer His life? "And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Eph 5:2)
• Did God punish His Son through others? No, this is never once mentioned in the bible, nowhere. It is conjecture to think so.
• Did God judge our sin in the bodily death of His Son? Yes, in the sweet smelling aroma of His Son's sacrifice our Heavenly Father judged sin.
• Did the death of His Son pacify God? Yes, in that our sin was judged and God reconciled us to Himself; and this pleased God.

When you read the bible it always states our Lord died for our sins, that He offered up Himself. It never once states our Heavenly Father killed Him for our sins. You will read where our Father predetermined with purpose and by foreknowledge delivered Him over to those who would kill Him, and yet it was ultimately our Lord's decision to give His life for our sins to fulfill our Father's will.

If the punishment for sin is death, then it was our Lord who gave His life over to death of Himself, for the Lord said, "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father." (Joh 10:17-18). You need to understand our Lord sacrificed Himself to the power of death, God did not punish Him with death. He alone gave His life.

Again, no punishment was ever inflicted by our Father upon His own Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. Jesus came from Heaven on a rescue mission, to save us from our own sins by giving an offering of His life for our life. And God fully accepted it! We are bought, ransomed, purchased with the blood of Jesus Christ unto eternal life by the wonderful goodness and grace of our God! We now live with the joy of salvation being gloriously filled with God inside, experiencing a new life as never before, with Him constantly reassuring us because He loves us. We're never alone, but always spiritually in the presence of the Lord. God is our Father and we are truly His children!

God Bless

Your analogy only works when a criminal is being punished, not a Savior offering His life for our life.

We are the criminals that JESUS replaced on the Cross with His Own Body = HE became SIN/CRIMINAL for us

God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

@Joe @civic @DavidTree CRIMINAL Tresspasses/Crimes were PAID for by the LORD Jesus Christ

Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The PUNISHMENT for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

Another day and another return to reality from the Holy Scriptures of TRUTH = Thy word is Truth

 

[civic]

We are the criminals that JESUS replaced on the Cross with His Own Body = HE became SIN/CRIMINAL for us

God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

@Joe @civic @DavidTree CRIMINAL Tresspasses/Crimes were PAID for by the LORD Jesus Christ

Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The PUNISHMENT for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

Another day and another return to reality from the Holy Scriptures of TRUTH = Thy word is Truth

The atonement has nothing to do with crimes, a courtroom, prosecution, a Judge etc......

Thats all fantasy, not biblical reality.

 

[DavidTree]

The atonement has nothing to do with crimes, a courtroom, prosecution, a Judge etc......

Thats all fantasy, not biblical reality.

What book are you reading???

The Bible Says:

Psalm 110:6 -
The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
6He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall execute the heads of many countries.
7He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He shall lift up the head.

Acts 24:25 - And after some days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, he sent for Paul and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
25Now as he reasoned about righteousness, self-control, and the judgment to come,

Romans 2:3So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things,
do you think you will escape God’s judgment?

Psalm 98:9
For He is coming to judge the earth.
With righteousness He shall judge the world,

Revelation 19:11
Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.

 

[civic]

What book are you reading???

The Bible Says:

Psalm 110:6 -
The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
6He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall execute the heads of many countries.
7He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He shall lift up the head.

Acts 24:25 - And after some days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, he sent for Paul and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
25Now as he reasoned about righteousness, self-control, and the judgment to come,

Romans 2:3So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things,
do you think you will escape God’s judgment?

Psalm 98:9
For He is coming to judge the earth.
With righteousness He shall judge the world,

Revelation 19:11
Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.

That’s not the atonement, nice try

 

[DavidTree]

That’s not the atonement, nice try

That has EVERYTHING to do with Atonement = those who refuse Atonement for their sins thru the Punishment and Death of Christ as mankind's only Salvation will be JUDGED and No forgiveness will be granted.

Those of us who do come under the Atonement of Christs' Blood = which was shed during God's Punishment for SIN:
we escape God's Judgment/Wrath yet we will still be JUDGED but at the Mercy Seat = which is Christ

 

[civic]

That has EVERYTHING to do with Atonement = those who refuse Atonement for their sins thru the Punishment and Death of Christ as mankind's only Salvation will be JUDGED and No forgiveness will be granted.

Those of us who do come under the Atonement of Christs' Blood = which was shed during God's Punishment for SIN:
we escape God's Judgment/Wrath yet we will still be JUDGED but at the Mercy Seat = which is Christ

Nope you will stand before Christ at the Judgement Seat of Christ . You are not exempt and will stand before Him and give an account. There will be rewards and loss of rewards. Just as there is discipline fur sinnjng and disobeying here by the Father Hebrews 12. There will be in heaven at Christs Judgement Seat.

Each one should build with care. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames (1 Corinthians 3:10b–15

See 2 Corinthians 5:10 and Romans 14:10.

Hope this helps !!!

 

[Joe]

The PUNISHMENT for our peace was upon Him,

Why do you keep using punishment instead of the Hebrew word מוּסָר mûsâr? The word means chastisement not punishment. There is a big difference. We can find supporting evidence of our Lord being chastised by our Father to perfect Him, but you cannot find one scripture properly translated and in context that our Lord suffered punishment/retribution for our sins...It is not in the bible!

מוּסָר mûsâr (moo-sawr) means chastisement, which in Hebrew can mean instruction, training, correction given by parents upon their children, all of these to complete them. Chastisement includes learning by suffering. One can perfect their son by causing him to suffer to one degree or another, to teach him something that he might otherwise not learn. We know it as discipline.

In Hebrews 2:10 we are informed that God made our Lord, the Author of our salvation "perfect" through suffering.

"For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the Author of their salvation perfect through suffering."​

In Hebrews 5:7-10 we are informed that our Lord "learned obedience through what He suffered", and was "made perfect" by it, becoming the source of salvation.

"In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek”​

In Hebrews 7:26-28 we are informed the oath of God "appoints a Son forever who has been perfected".

"For such a high priest was fitting for us: holy, guiltless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; who doesn’t need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices daily, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. For he did this once for all, when he offered up himself. For the law appoints men as high priests who have weakness, but the word of the oath which came after the law appoints a Son forever who has been perfected."​

God Bless

 

[DavidTree]

Why do you keep using punishment instead of the Hebrew word מוּסָר mûsâr? The word means chastisement not punishment.

Hello my Brother in Christ @Joe,

There are varying levels of chastisement/punishment

מוּסַ֤ר (mū·sar)
Noun - masculine singular construct
Strong's Hebrew 4148: 1) discipline, chastening, correction 1a) discipline, correction 1b) chastening

NOTICE: the chastisement upon Christ was unto:
a.) BRUTAL Flesh Ripping = His Back ripped to shreds from BRUTAL Whipping

b.) BRUTAL blows of men's fists across His Face = so much so that the Scripture says: "If you looked upon Him you could not recognize Him because He was so disfigured from the BRUTAL Beating HE took upon Himself for you and me.

c.) 2 inch Thorns pressed into His Head, full circumference, for a crown

d.) After all that, JESUS now must carry a very heavy wooden cross on His Body

e.) Not Done Yet = OK, lay JESUS down on that Cross and drive NAILS into His Hands and Feet

f.) Still Not Done Yet = Raise up that Cross with JESUS on it so that AGONY of ALL that BRUTAL ABUSE is MAGNIFIED x100

Yep, only a mere chastisement

 

[civic]

Why do you keep using punishment instead of the Hebrew word מוּסָר mûsâr? The word means chastisement not punishment. There is a big difference. We can find supporting evidence of our Lord being chastised by our Father to perfect Him, but you cannot find one scripture properly translated and in context that our Lord suffered punishment/retribution for our sins...It is not in the bible!

מוּסָר mûsâr (moo-sawr) means chastisement, which in Hebrew can mean instruction, training, correction given by parents upon their children, all of these to complete them. Chastisement includes learning by suffering. One can perfect their son by causing him to suffer to one degree or another, to teach him something that he might otherwise not learn. We know it as discipline.

In Hebrews 2:10 we are informed that God made our Lord, the Author of our salvation "perfect" through suffering.

"For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the Author of their salvation perfect through suffering."​

In Hebrews 5:7-10 we are informed that our Lord "learned obedience through what He suffered", and was "made perfect" by it, becoming the source of salvation.

"In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek”​

In Hebrews 7:26-28 we are informed the oath of God "appoints a Son forever who has been perfected".

"For such a high priest was fitting for us: holy, guiltless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; who doesn’t need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices daily, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. For he did this once for all, when he offered up himself. For the law appoints men as high priests who have weakness, but the word of the oath which came after the law appoints a Son forever who has been perfected."​

God Bless

Amen brother preach it