PSA as central to the Gospel

So if that’s one position then it stands to reason the church will not go through the great tribulation the day of Gods mighty wrath and vengeance:)
We’ll be there. The Bible tells us so. But God will protect His sheep. And if we suffer a little bit, we suffer with Him. … selah
 
Just as you know from the Gospel, the Apostles letters and Revelation
God saves/ delivers believers from His wrath. They do not suffer Gods wrath. Just as Jesus and Apostles taught.

God has not appointed us to wrath. Bible 101. The great tribulation is the day of Gods wrath , the terrible Day of the Lord.

Amen
 
Why people want to conflate tribulation in the world with Gods wrath is beyond me and it’s unbiblical. The two have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. One believes suffer the other unbelievers suffer. Two completely different purposes of God.

The wrath of God is a fearsome and terrifying thing. Only those who have been covered by the blood of Christ, shed for us on the cross, can be assured that God’s wrath will never fall on them. “Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through Him!” (Romans 5:9).

Here's why I believe in a pretrib rapture is the biblical model for the church

God's wrath is the Great Tribulation. Revelation 16:1 "Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.” Many will say God's wrath only comes after the tribulation which doesn't agree with scripture.

Also 1 thessalonians 5:9 says the church is not appointed to wrath. "For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ"

Revelation 3:10 “I will keep you from the hour of trial”: the hour of trial refers to the great tribulation

Luke 21:36 "Be always on the watch,and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”: This verse tells us to be watchful before the tribulation so that we may be ready to escape it. If the church was going to endure the tribulation anyway I think Jesus would tell us how to prepare and survive it without taking the mark instead of just being watchful.

Also if the church is still on the earth then they're would be no need for the two witnesses and 144,000 to boldly preach the Gospel.

I believe the tribulation is referred as Jacob's Trouble for a reason; which is unbelieving Israel otherwise it would be called the Church's Trouble.

hope this helps !!!
 
Why people want to conflate tribulation in the world with Gods wrath is beyond me and it’s unbiblical. The two have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. One believes suffer the other unbelievers suffer. Two completely different purposes of God.

The wrath of God is a fearsome and terrifying thing. Only those who have been covered by the blood of Christ, shed for us on the cross, can be assured that God’s wrath will never fall on them. “Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through Him!” (Romans 5:9).

Here's why I believe in a pretrib rapture is the biblical model for the church

God's wrath is the Great Tribulation. Revelation 16:1 "Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.” Many will say God's wrath only comes after the tribulation which doesn't agree with scripture.

Also 1 thessalonians 5:9 says the church is not appointed to wrath. "For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ"

Revelation 3:10 “I will keep you from the hour of trial”: the hour of trial refers to the great tribulation

Luke 21:36 "Be always on the watch,and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”: This verse tells us to be watchful before the tribulation so that we may be ready to escape it. If the church was going to endure the tribulation anyway I think Jesus would tell us how to prepare and survive it without taking the mark instead of just being watchful.

Also if the church is still on the earth then they're would be no need for the two witnesses and 144,000 to boldly preach the Gospel.

I believe the tribulation is referred as Jacob's Trouble for a reason; which is unbelieving Israel otherwise it would be called the Church's Trouble.

hope this helps !!!
Revelation chapter 14 all Believers/Saints are Heavenbound

Revelation chapter 15 is when the Wrath of God BEGINS

Revelation chapters 1 thru 14 the Church/Body of Christ/Elect/Saints are on the earth during the Great Tribulation.

pre-trib rapture cannot be found in Scripture for it does not exist

Pre-Wrath rapture is EASILY FOUND in scripture beginning in Genesis and ending in Revelation

Proverbs 30:5-6
 
Revelation chapter 14 all Believers/Saints are Heavenbound

Revelation chapter 15 is when the Wrath of God BEGINS

Revelation chapters 1 thru 14 the Church/Body of Christ/Elect/Saints are on the earth during the Great Tribulation.

pre-trib rapture cannot be found in Scripture for it does not exist

Pre-Wrath rapture is EASILY FOUND in scripture beginning in Genesis and ending in Revelation

Proverbs 30:5-6
You didn’t address any of the scriptures in my post
 
peter uses the same words too . SWIFT destruction
Now go to and behold this ecumincal WHORES INTEFAITH SOLUTION
IT preaches ANTI CHRIST , a lie and they all believe this merger of the religoins will usher in
PEACE AND SECURITY . you ever get the f eeling
WE GOT A HUGE WHORE at work and is callling all her children home
TO INCLUDE also the false religions and making everyone to beleive we serve the same GOD .
And this so called god is all behind this and is leading them to peace n safety .
OH there is a god behind this all right and its leading THEM TO ANTI CHRIST . and folks just love its messages .
@Tothalordbeallglory
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2‬:‭1‬ ‭KJV‬
 
We have ecumincal whores all over the place my friend .
and beleive me when i say they can quoate the gospel , but in truth they no longer BELIEVE IT .
Its a madhouse civic and not only that but most folks have no idea
just how far wide spread it is . This WHORE and these spirits
are gonna end this generation IN PERDITION . and they think its all love and hugs and cute and necesary for world
peace n safety . ITS GONNA END THEM my friend . And we have to do something now .
Get every man woman and child you know back into that bible to learn for themselves .
@Tothalordbeallglory
“And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 
Also if the church is still on the earth then they're would be no need for the two witnesses and 144,000 to boldly preach the Gospel.
civic, you badly deceived on your eschatology I see.

The two witnesses of revelation seven are the church of Jesus Christ made up of Jews and Gentiles per John.

Revelation 11:3,4​

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."

Romans 11:17​

“And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;”

The church will be here until the very end, the last day when the last trump (the seventh) shall sound and there be a resurrection BOTH of the good and bad on the last day. See John 5:28,29!
I believe the tribulation is referred as Jacob's Trouble for a reason; which is unbelieving Israel otherwise it would be called the Church's Trouble.
Jacob's trouble has reference to the elect/saints, not literal Israel~there are NO prophecies for "literal/natural" Israel as a nation in the NT, in a good and profitable sense, zero! If you believe otherwise, then prove it with scriptures, which neither you or any man can. I'm 100% confidence you cannot.

Luke 1:33​

“And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”

Has reference "ONLY" to the God's elect/saints, whom Christ shall reign over for ever and ever. You have serious problems I see in a lot of area's.

Daniel 7:27​

“And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.”
 
Last edited:
PSA is Pure Undefiled TRUTH = God's TRUTH = Isaiah chapter 53
Without Isaiah 53 and the Cross unto Death, the Gospel does not exist

To avoid/disparage/deny this TRUTH is unbelief
I agree with you that "Without Isaiah 53 and the Cross unto Death, the Gospel does not exist", only because they do exist as fulfillment of God's promises as early as at the fall of man.

I simply disagree that our Father punished our Lord, especially so with intense emotional anger-wrath. It was our Father's will and predetermined plan that His own Son would willingly die for our sins but He did not kill Him. Our Father delivered Him up to evil men under the leading of Satan who would kill Him, but the decision to die was upon our Lord. He is the One who offered His life for our sins. No one took it from Him. Even in the garden on the night of His arrest, He firmly decided to lay aside His own will to die on a cross according to our Father's will. And through this single act of righteous (obeying our Father's will to offer His own life for our sins), the free gift of righteousness (God credits our faith in Jesus Christ as our righteousness-this is the free gift, no law of works involved. ref, Rom 4:4-5, Eph 2:8-9) came to all men (for Christ our Lord died for everyone, each man ref, Heb 2:9 ), resulting in justification of life (the complete forgiveness and forgetting of sins, our sins have been expunged) (ref, Rom 5:18, Eph 2:8-9).

You cannot provide contextual scriptural evidence in the New Covenant of the Bible, nor examples in the Old Covenant where sin offerings were punished by God or shown God's wrath. Repentance, confession of sin, and a sin offering averted God's wrath. At no time was the sin offering the recipient of God's wrath.

In the Old Covenant the sinners were commanded to bring their own sacrifice for sin, confessing their sin of why it was dying, and it was killed for those sins, and the sacrifice had to be according to God's specifications of being unblemished. And all this so that they could live covenantally in relationship with God.

In the establishment of His New Covenant, God is the One who supplies His own unblemished Lamb for the sinners, He confessed that He laid all of our sins upon His Lamb (Isa 53:6), and it was the sinners who were to kill God's Lamb for their sins (Isa 53:7-8, Acts 2:23). And now, under God's New Covenant, anyone who confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead will be saved. (Rom 10:9)

The punishment our Lord received was from the hands of wicked men under the leading of the devil. God foreknew what was going to happen (Acts 2:23), and He delivered His Son over to them to be the means of our salvation. And even though God foreknew what they would do to His Son, it pleased Him to turn His Son over to them, for His life was made an offering for the guilt of our sin; and His Son would see His offspring; He would resurrect and give us eternal life; and the will of God prospers in His hands. Our Lord looked upon the labor of His soul and is satisfied (He has no regrets); He took away our sins in His offering of His life, and in doing so He justified us (Rom 5:9).


Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.

Yes, our Lord suffered at the hands of evil men who thought God was punishing Him, and yet it were they who were punishing Him.

But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement/punishment for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.

Yes, even though our Lord was being punished by evil men, it was according to God's will that it would be the means for the healing of mankind.

The Hebrew word מוּסָר mûsâr (moo-sawr) used in Isa 53:5 means chastisement not punishment. In Hebrew it means instruction, training, correction given by parents upon their children, all of these to complete-perfect them. Chastisement includes learning by suffering. One can perfect their son by causing him to suffer to one degree or another, to teach him something that he might otherwise not learn. We know it as discipline.

Now that Isa 53:5 has been fulfilled, we know God told man ahead of time He would perfect His Son to be the Author of Salvation through experiencing the sufferings that brought us peace with Him. Our Lord's real experiences of humbling Himself to come into our form and living in our human weakness, suffering at the hands of evil men, and offering up His life unto death on account of our sins is what purifies us of our sins and reconciles-restores our relationship to God.

In Hebrews 2:-910 we are informed that God made our Lord, the Author of our salvation "perfect" through suffering.
• "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings"

In Hebrews 5:7-10 we are informed that our Lord "learned obedience through what He suffered", and was "made perfect" by it, becoming the source of salvation.
• "In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek”

In Hebrews 7:26-28 we are informed the oath of God "appoints a Son forever who has been perfected".
• "For such a high priest was fitting for us: holy, guiltless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; who doesn’t need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices daily, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. For he did this once for all, when he offered up himself. For the law appoints men as high priests who have weakness, but the word of the oath which came after the law appoints a Son forever who has been perfected."

The Hebrew understanding of chastisement does not mean penal punishment like us westerners think. Jesus did not suffer God’s vengeance for our sins but suffered to make Him complete/perfect as the Author of our salvation. He is both the Lamb of God that takes away our sins and Great High Priest that represents us forever.


6All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

Yes, we all have turned away from God and serve ourselves.

Unlike the sinners under the Old Covenant who had to bring their own unblemished lamb and confess their sins why the animal was being sacrificed, God provided His Lamb and confessed why He was dying, for the iniquities of us all.

No punishment from God. No wrath from God. Only a demonstration of God's love to use evil mankind to be instrumental in His salvation of mankind.

God Bless
 
Last edited:
civic, you badly deceived on your eschatology I see.

The two witnesses of revelation seven are the church of Jesus Christ made up of Jews and Gentiles per John.

Revelation 11:3,4​

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."

Romans 11:17​

“And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;”

The church will be here until the very end, the last day when the last trump (the seventh) shall sound and there be a resurrection BOTH of the good and bad on the last day. See John 5:28,29!

Jacob's trouble has reference to the elect/saints, not literal Israel~there are NO prophecies for "literal/natural" Israel as a nation in the NT, in a good and profitable sense, zero! If you believe otherwise, then prove it with scriptures, which neither you or any man can. I'm 100% confidence you cannot.

Luke 1:33​

“And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”

Has reference "ONLY" to the God's elect/saints, whom Christ shall reign over for ever and ever. You have serious problems I see in a lot of area's.

Daniel 7:27​

“And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.”
You are badly deceived in your Soteriology, Theology and Eschatology.
 
I agree with you that "Without Isaiah 53 and the Cross unto Death, the Gospel does not exist", only because they do exist as fulfillment of God's promises as early as at the fall of man.

I simply disagree that our Father punished our Lord, especially so with intense emotional anger-wrath. It was our Father's will and predetermined plan that His own Son would willingly die for our sins but He did not kill Him. Our Father delivered Him up to evil men under the leading of Satan who would kill Him, but the decision to die was upon our Lord. He is the One who offered His life for our sins. No one took it from Him. Even in the garden on the night of His arrest, He firmly decided to lay aside His own will to die on a cross according to our Father's will. And through this single act of righteous (obeying our Father's will to offer His own life for our sins), the free gift of righteousness (God credits our faith in Jesus Christ as our righteousness-this is the free gift, no law of works involved. ref, Rom 4:4-5, Eph 2:8-9) came to all men (for Christ our Lord died for everyone, each man ref, Heb 2:9 ), resulting in justification of life (the complete forgiveness and forgetting of sins, our sins have been expunged) (ref, Rom 5:18, Eph 2:8-9).

You cannot provide contextual scriptural evidence in the New Covenant of the Bible, nor examples in the Old Covenant where sin offerings were punished by God or shown God's wrath. Repentance, confession of sin, and a sin offering averted God's wrath. At no time was the sin offering the recipient of God's wrath.

In the Old Covenant the sinners were commanded to bring their own sacrifice for sin, confessing their sin of why it was dying, and it was killed for those sins, and the sacrifice had to be according to God's specifications of being unblemished. And all this so that they could live covenantally in relationship with God.

In the establishment of His New Covenant, God is the One who supplies His own unblemished Lamb for the sinners, He confessed that He laid all of our sins upon His Lamb (Isa 53:6), and it was the sinners who were to kill God's Lamb for their sins (Isa 53:7-8, Acts 2:23). And now, under God's New Covenant, anyone who confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead will be saved. (Rom 10:9)

The punishment our Lord received was from the hands of wicked men under the leading of the devil. God foreknew what was going to happen (Acts 2:23), and He delivered His Son over to them to be the means of our salvation. And even though God foreknew what they would do to His Son, it pleased Him to turn His Son over to them, for His life was made an offering for the guilt of our sin; and His Son would see His offspring; He would resurrect and give us eternal life; and the will of God prospers in His hands. Our Lord looked upon the labor of His soul and is satisfied (He has no regrets); He took away our sins in His offering of His life, and in doing so He justified us (Rom 5:9).




Yes, our Lord suffered at the hands of evil men who thought God was punishing Him, and yet it were they who were punishing Him.



Yes, even though our Lord was being punished by evil men, it was according to God's will that it would be the means for the healing of mankind.

The Hebrew word מוּסָר mûsâr (moo-sawr) used in Isa 53:5 means chastisement not punishment. In Hebrew it means instruction, training, correction given by parents upon their children, all of these to complete-perfect them. Chastisement includes learning by suffering. One can perfect their son by causing him to suffer to one degree or another, to teach him something that he might otherwise not learn. We know it as discipline.

Now that Isa 53:5 has been fulfilled, we know God told man ahead of time He would perfect His Son to be the Author of Salvation through experiencing the sufferings that brought us peace with Him. Our Lord's real experiences of humbling Himself to come into our form and living in our human weakness, suffering at the hands of evil men, and offering up His life unto death on account of our sins is what purifies us of our sins and reconciles-restores our relationship to God.

In Hebrews 2:-910 we are informed that God made our Lord, the Author of our salvation "perfect" through suffering.
• "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings"

In Hebrews 5:7-10 we are informed that our Lord "learned obedience through what He suffered", and was "made perfect" by it, becoming the source of salvation.
• "In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek”

In Hebrews 7:26-28 we are informed the oath of God "appoints a Son forever who has been perfected".
• "For such a high priest was fitting for us: holy, guiltless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; who doesn’t need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices daily, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. For he did this once for all, when he offered up himself. For the law appoints men as high priests who have weakness, but the word of the oath which came after the law appoints a Son forever who has been perfected."

The Hebrew understanding of chastisement does not mean penal punishment like us westerners think. Jesus did not suffer God’s vengeance for our sins but suffered to make Him complete/perfect as the Author of our salvation. He is both the Lamb of God that takes away our sins and Great High Priest that represents us forever.




Yes, we all have turned away from God and serve ourselves.

Unlike the sinners under the Old Covenant who had to bring their own unblemished lamb and confess their sins why the animal was being sacrificed, God provided His Lamb and confessed why He was dying, for the iniquities of us all.

No punishment from God. No wrath from God. Only a demonstration of God's love to use evil mankind to be instrumental in His salvation of mankind.

God Bless
Amen brother well said !!!
 
@civic
You are badly deceived in your Soteriology, Theology and Eschatology.
I've been studying this since you were in grade school, maybe even before then! I'm convinced I can hold my on with you any day of the week on Eschatology. I left the Pre-mill school back in the mid seventies, and have a booklet I did against their secret Rapture doctrine, that even Ralph Woodrow desire to use it. Test me.

I'm a Amill Idealist, NOT a preterist, and not pre-mill, with their sci friction interpretation of Revelation...again, test me.

Tim Lahaye would make a great hollywood film director on sci fiction movies! A false prophet when it came to the word of God. He got rich (worth millions of $$$$$) telling lies using scriptures.
 
Last edited:
@civic

I've been studying this since you were in grade school. maybe even before then! I'm convinced I can hold my on with you any day of the week on Eschatology. I left the Pre-mill school back in the mid seventies, and have a booklet I did against their secret Rapture doctrine, that even Ralph Woodrow desire to use it. Test me.
I have been studying the bible every day since 1980- 45 years. Disciples by a Hebrew/Greek Scholar who was my pastor in the 80's. I have a library thats 2nd to none. Pastors who have seen it are in envy.

Your apologetics are lacking greatly.

here is a thread with 7 reasons you cannot refute the pre trib POV.

 
I agree with you that "Without Isaiah 53 and the Cross unto Death, the Gospel does not exist", only because they do exist as fulfillment of God's promises as early as at the fall of man.

I simply disagree that our Father punished our Lord, especially so with intense emotional anger-wrath. It was our Father's will and predetermined plan that His own Son would willingly die for our sins but He did not kill Him. Our Father delivered Him up to evil men under the leading of Satan who would kill Him, but the decision to die was upon our Lord. He is the One who offered His life for our sins. No one took it from Him. Even in the garden on the night of His arrest, He firmly decided to lay aside His own will to die on a cross according to our Father's will. And through this single act of righteous (obeying our Father's will to offer His own life for our sins), the free gift of righteousness (God credits our faith in Jesus Christ as our righteousness-this is the free gift, no law of works involved. ref, Rom 4:4-5, Eph 2:8-9) came to all men (for Christ our Lord died for everyone, each man ref, Heb 2:9 ), resulting in justification of life (the complete forgiveness and forgetting of sins, our sins have been expunged) (ref, Rom 5:18, Eph 2:8-9).

You cannot provide contextual scriptural evidence in the New Covenant of the Bible, nor examples in the Old Covenant where sin offerings were punished by God or shown God's wrath. Repentance, confession of sin, and a sin offering averted God's wrath. At no time was the sin offering the recipient of God's wrath.

In the Old Covenant the sinners were commanded to bring their own sacrifice for sin, confessing their sin of why it was dying, and it was killed for those sins, and the sacrifice had to be according to God's specifications of being unblemished. And all this so that they could live covenantally in relationship with God.

In the establishment of His New Covenant, God is the One who supplies His own unblemished Lamb for the sinners, He confessed that He laid all of our sins upon His Lamb (Isa 53:6), and it was the sinners who were to kill God's Lamb for their sins (Isa 53:7-8, Acts 2:23). And now, under God's New Covenant, anyone who confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead will be saved. (Rom 10:9)

The punishment our Lord received was from the hands of wicked men under the leading of the devil. God foreknew what was going to happen (Acts 2:23), and He delivered His Son over to them to be the means of our salvation. And even though God foreknew what they would do to His Son, it pleased Him to turn His Son over to them, for His life was made an offering for the guilt of our sin; and His Son would see His offspring; He would resurrect and give us eternal life; and the will of God prospers in His hands. Our Lord looked upon the labor of His soul and is satisfied (He has no regrets); He took away our sins in His offering of His life, and in doing so He justified us (Rom 5:9).




Yes, our Lord suffered at the hands of evil men who thought God was punishing Him, and yet it were they who were punishing Him.



Yes, even though our Lord was being punished by evil men, it was according to God's will that it would be the means for the healing of mankind.

The Hebrew word מוּסָר mûsâr (moo-sawr) used in Isa 53:5 means chastisement not punishment. In Hebrew it means instruction, training, correction given by parents upon their children, all of these to complete-perfect them. Chastisement includes learning by suffering. One can perfect their son by causing him to suffer to one degree or another, to teach him something that he might otherwise not learn. We know it as discipline.

Now that Isa 53:5 has been fulfilled, we know God told man ahead of time He would perfect His Son to be the Author of Salvation through experiencing the sufferings that brought us peace with Him. Our Lord's real experiences of humbling Himself to come into our form and living in our human weakness, suffering at the hands of evil men, and offering up His life unto death on account of our sins is what purifies us of our sins and reconciles-restores our relationship to God.

In Hebrews 2:-910 we are informed that God made our Lord, the Author of our salvation "perfect" through suffering.
• "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings"

In Hebrews 5:7-10 we are informed that our Lord "learned obedience through what He suffered", and was "made perfect" by it, becoming the source of salvation.
• "In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek”

In Hebrews 7:26-28 we are informed the oath of God "appoints a Son forever who has been perfected".
• "For such a high priest was fitting for us: holy, guiltless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; who doesn’t need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices daily, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. For he did this once for all, when he offered up himself. For the law appoints men as high priests who have weakness, but the word of the oath which came after the law appoints a Son forever who has been perfected."

The Hebrew understanding of chastisement does not mean penal punishment like us westerners think. Jesus did not suffer God’s vengeance for our sins but suffered to make Him complete/perfect as the Author of our salvation. He is both the Lamb of God that takes away our sins and Great High Priest that represents us forever.




Yes, we all have turned away from God and serve ourselves.

Unlike the sinners under the Old Covenant who had to bring their own unblemished lamb and confess their sins why the animal was being sacrificed, God provided His Lamb and confessed why He was dying, for the iniquities of us all.

No punishment from God. No wrath from God. Only a demonstration of God's love to use evil mankind to be instrumental in His salvation of mankind.

God Bless
Good Morning

I agree with you and @civic that the FATHER was not the one standing over JESUS furiously whipping Him.

Satan is the prosecutor = the accuser of the Brethren.

When a King/Judge sentences a criminal to punishment, the King/Judge himself does not carry out the punishment.
The carrying out of the punishment is delegated to lower level servants/employees of the King/Government.

The instrument of punishment was carried out by men of this world who were/are under "the god of this world."

The story of Job is CRYSTAL CLEAR pictorial evidence of this process.

The scripture says: God is the KING over all of Creation. God Rules in Righteousness and Sin cannot go unpunished.
The penalty for Sin is DEATH.
God therefore, had to punish His Son unto the suffering of death but not for any wrong Jesus committed(HE did no wrong) but for the sins we committed = "behold the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world."


Correcting God is what Satan did for Eve = how did that turn out for you/us/everyone???
 
Last edited:
@Joe and @civic
Please make note that we agree that the scripture says the punishment JESUS received on our behalf was carried out by evil men.

Here is something for you to deeply ponder = JESUS was in the grave/tomb/death for 3 days

3 days is not by chance, coincidence or a random number = it is a Signature
 
Last edited:
@civic

I've been studying this since you were in grade school, maybe even before then! I'm convinced I can hold my on with you any day of the week on Eschatology. I left the Pre-mill school back in the mid seventies, and have a booklet I did against their secret Rapture doctrine, that even Ralph Woodrow desire to use it. Test me.

I'm a Amill Idealist, NOT a preterist, and not pre-mill, with their sci friction interpretation of Revelation...again, test me.

Tim Lahaye would make a great hollywood film director on sci fiction movies! A false prophet when it came to the word of God. He got rich (worth millions of $$$$$) telling lies using scriptures.
Tim Lahaye would make a great hollywood film director on sci fiction movies! A false prophet when it came to the word of God. He got rich (worth millions of $$$$$) telling lies using scriptures.
The Temple money changers are here today just as they were when JESUS walked in Israel 2,000 years ago.
 
Back
Top Bottom