civic
Active Member
Yes it’s actually injustice by the law of God and the laws of any civilized society
PSA as central to the Gospel
- Thread starter Diserner
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praise_yeshua
Active Member
It does establish the judgement of the second death. Rejecting the help of God in submitting to man's own judgment of Christ, cements the rights to vengeance.
We can't ignore vengeance in this. Those who reject Christ in the Resurrection from the death of their own judgements is a very dangerous thing. In such, there is no hope.
DavidTree
Active Member
YES and YES
What is the DESIRE of God? = "BEHOLD, the LAMB that takes away the sins of the world"
GREAT NEWS!
i SEE where you and @civic and @Joe are upset about = which i AGREE with YAH-all
God is not saying HE delights, in the same sense, as a person/devil that takes pleasure in inflicting torment on a another
God is Saying that HE took DELIGHT in seeing(fulfilling) HIS Will on earth as it is in Heaven
But the LORD desired
To crush Him, causing Him grief;
If He renders Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
God's DELIGHT is that the punishment we deserved was placed on His Son so that Hos Son can have a Bride = we who believe
Where did Eve come from? = Adam's side
Where did JESUS find His Bride = from Himself BUT HE had to Purchase Her from with His Blood
SEE Here = Isaiah 53:11-12
As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
For He will bear their wrongdoings.
Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the plunder with the strong,
Because He poured out His [m]life unto death,
And was counted with wrongdoers;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the wrongdoers.
SHALOM my Brothers-n-Sisters in Christ
civic
Active Member
Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53. Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering.
In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God. The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25. Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from.
At best PSA is a doctrine based upon an argument from silence in the New Testament.
The N.T. does not use the penal language that was developed during the Reformation in the dark ages as that was how that culture during that time had dealt with people in their judicial system punishing those who disagreed with them, torture and death were a result for many who went against their theology. That was the mentality of those who developed the doctrine we have today called the PSA atonement.
There are many aspects and theories of the atonement that contain truth, and no one theory is 100% correct. There are many different views and aspects to the atonement within orthodoxy. The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John.
Gods’ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Gods’ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin. Jesus said: “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The reason my Father loves Me is that I lay down My life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord” (John 10:11, 17-18). Or again, while speaking to the multitudes, Jesus declared: “Whatever the Father does the Son also does” (John 5:19). And Jesus said: “Now my heart is troubled. ‘Father, save me from this hour?’ No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!” (John 12:27-28)
The clear picture that emerges from Scripture is that Jesus was not the unfortunate victim of the angry Father. Rather, the Father and the Son were working in concert through the cross to pay for the sins of humanity and make atonement. There is no division of will between the Father and the Son. Jesus’ atonement was done in love which provided covering and forgiveness of sins as He declared was a ransom.
And this view harmonizes with God’s wrath that is still yet to come and was not poured out on Jesus on the cross. Our loving God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). Our loving Father took pleasure to bruise His Son to reconcile us to God as an offering for our sins. (Isaiah 53:10).
It is by faith in the Son through the message of the gospel that saves and unbelief which condemns. The gospel is for all mankind, all the world, for everyone. God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4). God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers (1 Timothy. 4:10), For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11) For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all (Romans 11:32). The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).
God sent His Son into the world to take away the sin of the world (John 1:29) and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2). and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again (2 Corinthians 5:15). But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9)
The sin issue !
Sin is the transgression of the law- 1 John 3:4. Sin is known thorough/by the law- Romans 7:7. The law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ- Galatians 3:24-25. Where there is no law there is no transgression of the law- Romans 4:14. Sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law. Romans 5:13.
In Colossians 2:13-15 we read the following: When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Ephesians 2:14-15: For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
2 Corinthians 5:18-20: All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
So, we see from the above scriptures it’s not sin per se that keeps the sinner from God it is unbelief. Faith is the issue. In Romans 5:1-2 we read the following: Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God
Its unbelief that keeps one from salvation and places them under condemnation. This is taught throughout the N.T. gospels and epistles. Here we see what Jesus and Paul declared below.
John 3:18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John 3:36: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them
Romans 11:20: Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.
Hebrews 3:19: So, we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. Cf Heb 4:6- unbelief
Jesus said: “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The reason my Father loves Me is that I lay down My life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord” (John 10:11, 17-18).
Or again, while speaking to the multitudes, Jesus declared: “Whatever the Father does the Son also does” (John 5:19). And Jesus said: “Now my heart is troubled. ‘Father, save me from this hour?’ No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!” (John 12:27-28)
The clear picture that emerges from Scripture is that Jesus was not the unfortunate victim of the angry Father receiving His anger, wrath, vengeance or retribution.
Rather, the Father and the Son were working in concert through the cross to pay for the sins of humanity and make atonement. There is no division of will between the Father and the Son. They remained in perfect unity, harmony, oneness of purpose, fellowship while making atonement for sin a reality and the forgiveness of that sin through His death, burial and resurrection from the dead.
Conclusion: The truth above is doctrinally accurate and reflect the true nature of God as Father, Son, Holy Spirit working together as One to make redemption possible for all mankind by faith in the Sons atonement for our sins.
hope this helps !!!
brightfame52
Active Member
False for it is God's Justice and Holiness
Wilber
Active Member
What gets me is that one of the core tenets of penal substitutionary atonement is the idea that an innocent individual can bear the punishment for the guilty. This notion contradicts the principles of justice and personal responsibility.
In a just system, each individual is held accountable for their actions, and it would be unjust to transfer guilt and punishment to an innocent party. Penal substitutionary atonement fails to uphold this fundamental moral principle.
In a just system, each individual is held accountable for their actions, and it would be unjust to transfer guilt and punishment to an innocent party. Penal substitutionary atonement fails to uphold this fundamental moral principle.
DavidTree
Active Member
The penal code was established by Elohim, before the world was, and Commanded in Genesis chapter 2
Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it.
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
The Penal Code of God was then firmly put into LAW = Moses/the law = JESUS to Jews: "Moses will judge you"
Gen 49:10 - The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes; And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.
Isa 33:22 - For the LORD is our Judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our King. It is He who will save us.
James 4:12 - Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?
brightfame52
Active Member
Eternal life begins when resurrection life gives the New Birth, it's all related
DavidTree
Active Member
SEE the Truth in Post 467
Wilber
Active Member
Another critical flaw in penal substitutionary atonement is its impact on the concept of forgiveness. True forgiveness involves the relinquishment of justified resentment and the restoration of a broken relationship. However, this view suggests that forgiveness can only occur when an adequate punishment has been meted out. By linking forgiveness exclusively to punishment, it diminishes the unconditional and freely offered forgiveness that is central to the Christian faith.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
So why do you die when Christ has resurrected from the grave?
See how easy that was to show how important it is to not conflate ideals. Christ died and arose again.
brightfame52
Active Member
Not with God because His Justice must be honored. He told man in Adam beforehand that in the day you eat of the forbidden tree, you shall surely die. He can't relent on His Holiness and Justice, so forgiveness must be on a Just ground.
Joe
Active Member
God's decretive command is for something to take place like our Lord being slain from the foundation of the world. His decretive will cannot conflict with His permissive will. God never decrees that man sin against Him, but He permits it to accomplish His decretive will.
This is what we see in the story of Joseph and of our Lord. He does use foreknowledge along with His decretive will to accomplish His purposes.
So, no, God did not command or decree that sinful man sin against Him in what they done to our Lord, such as beatings, whippings, insults, scourging, and hatred. Otherwise this would make God the cause of their sins; something we know is not true.
God foreknew what they would do and used their sinfulness to fulfill His purpose.
To get back to the start of this particular dialogue, you cannot find anywhere in the Bible where sin offerings were beaten, whipped, insulted, scourged, and hated before being slain. These sinful actions by sinful men did not atone for our sins, only one thing alone atones for our sins, the blood-death of our Lord.
God Bless
praise_yeshua
Active Member
You believe that God requires this. Can God do anything? Can God choose anything?
What God does or approves of is important. You're saying that God wanted the punish Christ.
The Son can have a perfect Bride without the punishment of sin upon Christ. God doesn't need you. Nor does God need me. You are creating a need external to God's own existence in your belief.
I know you're not that thoughtful when it comes to doctrines such as this. You just repeat what you've heard. Please stop and listen to what I have to say. Pay attention.
There is no meaningful difference in what you're saying and believing that God actually took pleasure this "beating" that pleased Him.
There is something very important that you missing. Eve had to agree.
Do you believe that Eve needed to be punished? Think before you answer this. Listen to the Spirit of God.
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praise_yeshua
Active Member
Geesh. God loved Adam. What Adam did wasn't worthy of damnation.
You see justice in damnation. Not justice in forgiveness.
DavidTree
Active Member
Thank you @Wilber
You said:
Whose "moral principal" ???
yours? or GOD's?
God's Moral Principal is:
1.) "the LAMB slain from the foundation of the world"
2.) "in the day you eat thereof you shall DIE"
3) “Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind."
4.) "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth
There is only ONE Cure for Sin = God's Judgement = the Cross
Then they journeyed from Mount Hor by the Way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way. And the people spoke against God and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread.” So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.
Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Did you notice how you said there can be only one cure......
Then you start listing more than one cure.
You need to realize that forgiveness doesn't empower of itself. It frees. It doesn't empower to do the things you're referencing.
Christ did MORE than just forgive. You can forgive someone and never have a relationship with them.
DavidTree
Active Member
That would be the same as saying: "We know better then God"
Please read Post 467
DavidTree
Active Member
One CURE for SIN as Declared by the HOLY SPIRIT = John chapter 3
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I don't need to read your posts David. I already know the answers.
You're assuming your position is true. Not defending.
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