PSA as central to the Gospel

[Joe]

It was man, not God, that murdered Jesus.

Full agreement! This runs parallel with the story of Joseph. His brothers meant evil against him, but God meant it for good. God did not command his brothers to hate him and throw him in a well. He certainly foreknew it since Joseph had a dream about them bowing down to him, and God used their evil actions for the good of both Abraham's decedents and Gentile.

But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. (Gen 50:20)

If PSA is correct, then those who crucified Jesus were carrying out God’s will. God forbid!

I oppose PSA after once believing it. In saying that, those who crucified our Lord did carry out our Father's permissive will; whereby He foreknew both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the Jewish people would set themselves against Him and His Anointed. He used their sinfulness against our Lord for the good of all, even those who crucified Him.

"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. (Act 2:22-24)

So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: "Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: 'WHY DID THE NATIONS RAGE, AND THE PEOPLE PLOT VAIN THINGS? THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND, AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.' "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. (Act 4:24-28)

The contention is why did God will for our Lord to come into our form and identify with us and die at the hands of evil men. What purpose did it serve. I've heard teachings from PSA advocates ranging from God damned our Lord to He simply punished Him in our place, and none of it is biblically accurate.

God gives us a similarity in the story of Joseph. And so it is with our Lord. What evil men intended upon our Lord, God meant for our good.

God Bless

 

[brightfame52]

God did not command his brothers to hate him and throw him in a well.

It's what called a decretive command, What God decreed is a command like 2 Cor 4:6

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Psalm 33:9

9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Psalm 105:8

He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Penal substitution diminishes the significance of Jesus’ life and resurrection. If penal substitution is correct, neither the life of Jesus nor his resurrection have much significance.

Jesus’ resurrection cannot be readily incorporated into a penal substitutionary doctrine of the atonement:

Penal substitution does not quite know what to make of the resurrection … The resurrection is seen only as the sign of the Father’s acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice, his affirmation of the sufficiency of what has been done to secure our pardon, and as a rather disconnected promise of life after death to those who belong to Christ.

Yes. Just show up and die.....

That is what PSA represents.

 

[civic]

Full agreement! This runs parallel with the story of Joseph. His brothers meant evil against him, but God meant it for good. God did not command his brothers to hate him and throw him in a well. He certainly foreknew it since Joseph had a dream about them bowing down to him, and God used their evil actions for the good of both Abraham's decedents and Gentile.

But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. (Gen 50:20)



I oppose PSA after once believing it. In saying that, those who crucified our Lord did carry out our Father's permissive will; whereby He foreknew both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the Jewish people would set themselves against Him and His Anointed. He used their sinfulness against our Lord for the good of all, even those who crucified Him.

"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. (Act 2:22-24)

So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: "Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: 'WHY DID THE NATIONS RAGE, AND THE PEOPLE PLOT VAIN THINGS? THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND, AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.' "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. (Act 4:24-28)

The contention is why did God will for our Lord to come into our form and identify with us and die at the hands of evil men. What purpose did it serve. I've heard teachings from PSA advocates ranging from God damned our Lord to He simply punished Him in our place, and none of it is biblically accurate.

God gives us a similarity in the story of Joseph. And so it is with our Lord. What evil men intended upon our Lord, God meant for our good.

God Bless

Amen you and I once upon a time in a land far far away use to believe that heresy, but God in His rich grace had mercy upon us and delivered us from that doctrine of man. PTL !!!

And according to those who espouse the doctrine we had no choice to believe otherwise.

God has made us reject it after God made us believe it for years.

That predestined thing is wild lol.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Amen you and I once upon a time in a land far far away use to believe that heresy, but God in His rich grace had mercy upon us and delivered us from that doctrine of man. PTL !!!

And according to those who espouse the doctrine we had no choice to believe otherwise.

God has made us reject it after God made us believe it for years.

That predestined thing is wild lol.

It really does destroy the Wonderous nature of God. God didn't keep Joseph from experiencing the evil of his brothers. God keep him THROUGH it. He even made his brothers bow (which Joseph didn't want) before him for THEIR good.

In all things. He is wonderfully kind and generous not allow us to consume ourselves.

 

[civic]

It really does destroy the Wonderous nature of God. God didn't keep Joseph from experience the evil of his brothers. God keep him THROUGH it. He even made his brothers bow (which Joseph didn't want) before him for THEIR good.

In all things. He is wonderfully kind and generous not allow us to consume ourselves.

Amen !!!

The opposition has a serious problem when it comes to their "view " of Sovereignty when it goes the other way from their beliefs since God is the one who causes us to believe what we believe at all times.

Only if they were honest enough to admit that basic flaw in their belief system. That double edged sword cuts both directions/ways.

 

[Blessed]

It's what called a decretive command, What God decreed is a command like 2 Cor 4:6

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Psalm 33:9

9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Psalm 105:8

He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

In 2 Corinthians 4:6, the metaphor of light piercing through darkness is not just about physical illumination; it’s about spiritual enlightenment. The darkness symbolizes confusion, despair, and sin, while the light represents hope, clarity, and righteousness.

Why is this distinction important?

Because it shows us that no matter how dark our situation might seem, there is always the opportunity for light to break through. In our personal struggles, we can reflect on this promise and remember that God desires to shine His light into all of our lives.

Matthew 11:28
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Come to Jesus and there is no more stumbling around in the darkness. He is calling All to come to Him.

 

[brightfame52]

@Alive

Jesus’ resurrection cannot be readily incorporated into a penal substitutionary doctrine of the atonement:

But it is, His resurrection was theirs as well and it is why they are born again from above 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

[Salty]

Penal substitutionary doctrine of the atonement is ‘cosmic child abuse’

God isn’t guilty of child abuse (that’s a relief).

However, we are culpable of depicting Him that way, if we hold to the Penal Substitution Theory of the Atonement because this theory does portray God as a cosmic child abuser.

 

[DavidTree]

Amen !!!

The opposition has a serious problem when it comes to their "view " of Sovereignty when it goes the other way from their beliefs since God is the one who causes us to believe what we believe at all times.

Only if they were honest enough to admit that basic flaw in their belief system. That double edged sword cuts both directions/ways.

i do not understand what it is that you guys are so against the punishment that CHRIST took on His Body for your sins an dmine as well.

Without the pre-determined Counsel of Elohim to come to earth and SUFFER IMMENSE Physical and emotional TRAUMA,
you and i could never have our sins washed away =
Isaiah 53 = by HIS STRIPES we are healed

Job 6:9
“Oh, that I might have my request,
That God would grant me the thing that I long for!
That it would please God to crush me,
That He would loose His hand and cut me off!
Then I would still have comfort;
Though in anguish I would exult,
He will not spare;
For I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.

Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,

@Joe @praise_yeshua

 

[civic]

Penal substitutionary doctrine of the atonement is ‘cosmic child abuse’

God isn’t guilty of child abuse (that’s a relief).

However, we are culpable of depicting Him that way, if we hold to the Penal Substitution Theory of the Atonement because this theory does portray God as a cosmic child abuser.

It makes God appear to be as a logical conclusion for anyone who is objective and unbiased when examining the wrath issue from Father to Son. Many theologian teach it was God who killed His own Son, not man.

 

[DavidTree]

Penal substitutionary doctrine of the atonement is ‘cosmic child abuse’

God isn’t guilty of child abuse (that’s a relief).

However, we are culpable of depicting Him that way, if we hold to the Penal Substitution Theory of the Atonement because this theory does portray God as a cosmic child abuser.

Read Isaiah 53 and then read the Gospel and if then watch the movie "PASSION of the CHRIST" so that you can SEE with your eyes the brutal punishment CHRIST took on your behalf, and mine as well!!!

 

[civic]

i do not understand what it is that you guys are so against the punishment that CHRIST took on His Body for your sins an dmine as well.

Without the pre-determined Counsel of Elohim to come to earth and SUFFER IMMENSE Physical and emotional TRAUMA,
you and i could never have our sins washed away =
Isaiah 53 = by HIS STRIPES we are healed

Job 6:9
“Oh, that I might have my request,
That God would grant me the thing that I long for!
That it would please God to crush me,
That He would loose His hand and cut me off!
Then I would still have comfort;
Though in anguish I would exult,
He will not spare;
For I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.

Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,

@Joe @praise_yeshua

I have dismantled this in another thread. The PSA advocates have misused and abused Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. The only 2 passages they use for PSA. Its found nowhere in the N.T. from Jesus or the Apostles teaching.

The 2 verses ripped from their context in Isiah 53 and Psalm 22 are not even mentioned anywhere in the N.T. This is a death blow for the false doctrine/heresy/ lie know as Penal Substitution Theory of the Atonement ( PSA ).

hope this helps !!!

All sound doctrine has its beginning with Gods nature and character. PSA is proof of unsound doctrine. Its an assault on Gods Good and Loving nature/character within His own Being as Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

It makes God a Dis- Unity, not a Tri-Unity. It makes God disfunctional.

Its the same logic and reasoning from the other lies from the same camp with replacement theology with the church and Israel. The same camp with the errors of TULIP.

Thread 'The Nature of God in the Atonement'

Jul 13, 2023

Link removed and posted below.

The above is to long to post here it would be 5/6 separate posts. I might break it up in sections below.

• civic
• Replies: 472
• Forum: Penal Substitutionary Atonement

• 

 

[DavidTree]

I have dismantled this in another thread. The PSA advocates have misused and abused Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. The only 2 passages they use for PSA. Its found nowhere in the N.T. from Jesus or the Apostles teaching.

The 2 verses ripped from their context in Isiah 53 and Psalm 22 are not even mentioned anywhere in the N.T. This is a death blow for the false doctrine/heresy/ lie know as Penal Substitution Theory of the Atonement ( PSA ).

hope this helps !!!

All sound doctrine has its beginning with Gods nature and character. PSA is proof of unsound doctrine. Its an assault on Gods Good and Loving nature/character within His own Being as Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

It makes God a Dis- Unity, not a Tri-Unity. It makes God disfunctional.

Its the same logic and reasoning from the other lies from the same camp with replacement theology with the church and Israel. The same camp with the errors of TULIP.

Thread 'The Nature of God in the Atonement'

Jul 13, 2023

Link removed and posted below.

The above is to long to post here it would be 5/6 separate posts. I might break it up in sections below.

• civic
• Replies: 472
• Forum: Penal Substitutionary Atonement

• 

i do not advocate for 'labels' on Truth and Pure doctrine from the Scriptures

You and i KNOW that Elohim is THREE = FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT
JESUS said: "I am never alone for the FATHER is with ME"

CHRIST confirmed that HE had to suffer and die for our sins = Yes? or No?

 

[civic]

i do not advocate for 'labels' on Truth and Pure doctrine from the Scriptures

You and i KNOW that Elohim is THREE = FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT
JESUS said: "I am never alone for the FATHER is with ME"

CHRIST confirmed that HE had to suffer and die for our sins = Yes? or No?

Of course He suffered and died at the hands of wicked men, not God.


Scripture is unanimous it was wicked men, not God.

Acts 4:10, 11
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 7:52
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him

Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him

1 Corinthians 2:8-
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

Will you believe Jesus ?

He said it 7 times below

Matthew 17:23
They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.” And the disciples were filled with grief.

Mark 9:31
31for he was teaching his disciples, and said to them, “The Son of Man is being handed over to the hands of men, and they will kill him; and when he is killed, on the third day he will rise again.”

Luke 9:22
“The Son of Man must suffer many things,” He said. “He must be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”

Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

Matthew 20:18-19
“Look, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and scribes. They will condemn Him to death / and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life.”

Mark 8:31
Then He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and after three days rise again.

Luke 18:31-33
Then Jesus took the Twelve aside and said to them, “Look, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything the prophets have written about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. / He will be delivered over to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. / They will flog Him and kill Him, and on the third day He will rise again.”

John 2:19-21
Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.” / “This temple took forty-six years to build,” the Jews replied, “and You are going to raise it up in three days?” / But Jesus was speaking about the temple of His body.

 

[praise_yeshua]

i do not understand what it is that you guys are so against the punishment that CHRIST took on His Body for your sins an dmine as well.

Without the pre-determined Counsel of Elohim to come to earth and SUFFER IMMENSE Physical and emotional TRAUMA,
you and i could never have our sins washed away =
Isaiah 53 = by HIS STRIPES we are healed

Job 6:9
“Oh, that I might have my request,
That God would grant me the thing that I long for!
That it would please God to crush me,
That He would loose His hand and cut me off!
Then I would still have comfort;
Though in anguish I would exult,
He will not spare;
For I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.

Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,

@Joe @praise_yeshua

I believe we could summarizes this by simply recognizing what pleased who.....

One of the issues is relative to the translation and manuscripts you're following.

You believe God took pleasure in this "bruising" that took place of Christ. I do not. Many of us do not. It pleased men to bruise our Lord. God wasn't pleased with the bruising that took place. Mankind was. That is how we treat those who disobey us. That is how Satan treats those who disobey him.

Christ submitted to the punishment of mankind. There no context of that punishment actually pleasing God other than God showing to humanity that He would take from them their own judgments of Him.

The punishment itself was not God's choosing.

 

[DavidTree]

Of course He suffered and died at the hands of wicked men, not God.


Scripture is unanimous it was wicked men, not God.

Acts 4:10, 11
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 7:52
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him

Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him

1 Corinthians 2:8-
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

Will you believe Jesus ?

He said it 7 times below

Matthew 17:23
They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.” And the disciples were filled with grief.

Mark 9:31
31for he was teaching his disciples, and said to them, “The Son of Man is being handed over to the hands of men, and they will kill him; and when he is killed, on the third day he will rise again.”

Luke 9:22
“The Son of Man must suffer many things,” He said. “He must be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”

Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

Matthew 20:18-19
“Look, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and scribes. They will condemn Him to death / and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life.”

Mark 8:31
Then He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and after three days rise again.

Luke 18:31-33
Then Jesus took the Twelve aside and said to them, “Look, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything the prophets have written about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. / He will be delivered over to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. / They will flog Him and kill Him, and on the third day He will rise again.”

John 2:19-21
Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.” / “This temple took forty-six years to build,” the Jews replied, “and You are going to raise it up in three days?” / But Jesus was speaking about the temple of His body.

ABSOLUTEL TRUTH = i AGREE

Religion and Politics
It was God's Will that His Son to suffer and be put to death by the Jews who rebelled and the worlds Gentile political system.

Romans 2:6-11 [notice there is no separation between Jew & Gentile]
God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
For there is no partiality with God.

Question #1 - Did CHRIST confirm that HE must suffer and die for the sins of the world = Yes? or No?

Question #2 - Did CHRIST confirm that it was the Will of His FATHER for Him to suffer and die for the sins of the world? Y? or N?

 

[praise_yeshua]

ABSOLUTEL TRUTH = i AGREE

Religion and Politics
It was God's Will that His Son to suffer and be put to death by the Jews who rebelled and the worlds Gentile political system.

Romans 2:6-11 [notice there is no separation between Jew & Gentile]
God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
For there is no partiality with God.

Question #1 - Did CHRIST confirm that HE must suffer and die for the sins of the world = Yes? or No?

Question #2 - Did CHRIST confirm that it was the Will of His FATHER for Him to suffer and die for the sins of the world? Y? or N?

#1. Yes
#2. Yes

I don't believe you understand what you're saying. You believe that God desired and took pleasure in the suffering of Christ. That is exactly what you're saying. You may not realize this but it is.

 

[Wilber]

One of the fundamental problems with penal substitutionary atonement is its portrayal of God’s justice. This view suggests that God is an angry judge who demands satisfaction through punishment. It reduces God’s character to a merciless deity who must inflict pain and suffering on an innocent substitute in order to forgive humanity.

However, this understanding fails to acknowledge the biblical depiction of God as a loving and merciful Father, seeking reconciliation rather than retribution.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@Alive



But it is, His resurrection was theirs as well and it is why they are born again from above 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

You're conflating. That deals with the rights of Eternal life.

It doesn't deal with death. Why death. You must deal with this. You're conflating.