PSA as central to the Gospel
- Thread starter Diserner
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Joe
Active Member
God "commanded" or God gave over our Lord to those who would kill Him?
"Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death" (Act 2:23)
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." (Act 2:36)
God is never portrayed as commanding what men did to His Son, but by foreknowledge He knew what they would do, and He used their lawlessness under the power of the devil to "make the Author of their salvation perfect through suffering" and "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
You're conflating punishment from God with punishment from men that God used to "make the Author of their salvation perfect through suffering." And "In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered."
There is only one thing and one thing only that atones for the sin of mankind, the death of Jesus Christ. "For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
You cannot find anywhere in the bible that anything else atones for our sins but the blood-death of God's unblemished Lamb.
The beatings, scourging, thorns, insults, and hatred from lawless men never atoned for the sins of mankind according to God's Word. It is read into the text; assumed and yet never stated.
God Bless
brightfame52
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes according to His predetermined purpose Acts 4:27-28
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Alive
Active Member
Penal substitution diminishes the significance of Jesus’ life and resurrection. If penal substitution is correct, neither the life of Jesus nor his resurrection have much significance.
Jesus’ resurrection cannot be readily incorporated into a penal substitutionary doctrine of the atonement:
Penal substitution does not quite know what to make of the resurrection … The resurrection is seen only as the sign of the Father’s acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice, his affirmation of the sufficiency of what has been done to secure our pardon, and as a rather disconnected promise of life after death to those who belong to Christ.
Jesus’ resurrection cannot be readily incorporated into a penal substitutionary doctrine of the atonement:
Penal substitution does not quite know what to make of the resurrection … The resurrection is seen only as the sign of the Father’s acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice, his affirmation of the sufficiency of what has been done to secure our pardon, and as a rather disconnected promise of life after death to those who belong to Christ.
Joe
Active Member
I asked: God "commanded" or God gave over our Lord to those who would kill Him?
I'm assuming your reply of Yes is meant that He commanded, since you did not exactly specify.
First: That does not mean God commanded.
Second: It does not mean God commanded that beatings, whippings, scourging, insults, and hatred be required for the sins of mankind to be atoned. One is using something out of context to prove their misunderstanding that these actions atoned for our sins.
What is the one thing and one thing alone with no riders-customization that atoned for the sins of mankind?
It is not beatings.
It is not whippings.
It is not scourging.
It is not insults.
It is not hatred.
What is the only thing that atones for our sin? There is only one thing. What is it?
The believers prayer in Acts 4 recognized that man's wrath upon His Son Jesus could never operate outside of God's control, and even so it was according to His predetermined purpose.
As examples, the unbelieving Jews wanted to kill Him before God's predetermined time but they could not.
- "Therefore they sought to take Him; but no one laid a hand on Him, because His hour had not yet come." (Joh 7:30)
- "These words Jesus spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one laid hands on Him, for His hour had not yet come." (Joh 8:20)
Commanded? No. God did no such thing as command people to sin against Him.
God Bless
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civic
Active Member
Spot on
brightfame52
Active Member
civic
Active Member
Makes all the difference
brightfame52
Active Member
No it doesn't. If God predetermined something it's a done deal
civic
Active Member
Salty
Active Member
Penal Substitutionary Atonement is a Reformation invention that finds no support throughout the first millennium of the church. It has also been criticized as a distortion of Scripture, nowhere clearly taught in the Old or New Testaments. It has been blasted as a barbaric distortion of God’s character that places Him in the category of pagan gods such as Molech, depicting Him as a “monster God” It shows God as some sort of violent, pagan deity. Is it incompatible with the loving God of the Bible as revealed through Jesus Christ.
It has nothing to do with the gospel.
It has nothing to do with the gospel.
Blessed
Active Member
For me the question is whether such charges brought against PSA are accurate. Is PSA a relatively recent invention? Does it truly depict God as some sort of violent, pagan deity? Is it incompatible with the loving God of the Bible as revealed through Jesus Christ?
My answer is Yes to all three questions. But wait, there is more:
PSA creates an alarming division in the Trinity, portraying the Father as needing to punish the Son to satisfy His wrath as if the Father were some angry pagan deity that requires homicidal violence to satiate its wrath. But the New Testament clearly and consistently reveals that God was fully present and active “in Jesus” at the cross, not opposed to Him or pouring out His anger and wrath upon an innocent victim. It was man, not God, that murdered Jesus.
The apostles clearly and consistently blamed human sinfulness and violence for the crucifixion. If PSA is correct, then those who crucified Jesus were carrying out God’s will. God forbid! The Apostles, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, called individuals to repentance for murdering the incarnation of God’s Love (Jesus) and never once approved of their act (or support) of homicidal violence.
My answer is Yes to all three questions. But wait, there is more:
PSA creates an alarming division in the Trinity, portraying the Father as needing to punish the Son to satisfy His wrath as if the Father were some angry pagan deity that requires homicidal violence to satiate its wrath. But the New Testament clearly and consistently reveals that God was fully present and active “in Jesus” at the cross, not opposed to Him or pouring out His anger and wrath upon an innocent victim. It was man, not God, that murdered Jesus.
The apostles clearly and consistently blamed human sinfulness and violence for the crucifixion. If PSA is correct, then those who crucified Jesus were carrying out God’s will. God forbid! The Apostles, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, called individuals to repentance for murdering the incarnation of God’s Love (Jesus) and never once approved of their act (or support) of homicidal violence.
Neil Spargo
Active Member
The PSA theory is deeply flawed as it presents a God who cannot forgive without homicidal violence, a Father who must kill His own innocent Son in order to pardon evildoers, and a gospel that sounds more like legalism than liberation.
But there’s good news as Christ’s gospel of peace is infinitely more beautiful. God didn’t demand a sacrifice. He became the sacrifice, not to satisfy justice, but to dismantle the lie that God is against us. The cross reveals a God who would rather die at our hands than stop loving us. This is the gospel of peace.
The gospel of Christ. The gospel that does not retaliate, but redeems. God absorbed human violence, He didn’t demand it. He overcame evil not through retaliation but rather through nonviolent love of both friends and enemies. He forgives, restores, and rises again.
At Calvary, we see a love more powerful than sin, more enduring than death, and far more beautiful than any fear-driven religion could ever imagine. It’s an act of divine restoration, not divine retribution. And that difference changes everything.
But there’s good news as Christ’s gospel of peace is infinitely more beautiful. God didn’t demand a sacrifice. He became the sacrifice, not to satisfy justice, but to dismantle the lie that God is against us. The cross reveals a God who would rather die at our hands than stop loving us. This is the gospel of peace.
The gospel of Christ. The gospel that does not retaliate, but redeems. God absorbed human violence, He didn’t demand it. He overcame evil not through retaliation but rather through nonviolent love of both friends and enemies. He forgives, restores, and rises again.
At Calvary, we see a love more powerful than sin, more enduring than death, and far more beautiful than any fear-driven religion could ever imagine. It’s an act of divine restoration, not divine retribution. And that difference changes everything.
Joe
Active Member
It does make a difference. Commanding sinful acts to be done is different from using foreknown sinful acts.
One makes God commanding creation to sin, the other is foreknowing creation's sin and using it to accomplish His purpose.
"Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death" (Acts 2:23)
God did not command mankind to sin in the text of Acts 2:23, or Acts 4:24-28. God foreknew what would happen, and His prearranged plan was carried out when our Lord was delivered over to the unbelieving Jews who used the Gentiles to put Him to death by crucifixion.
You jumped into my dialogue with another poster, which is okay, when I asked, "Did God ever command the sacrifices to suffer physical harm such as beatings, whippings, and the such and then a violent death?"
You answered, "But God commanded the such for Christ! And His dying was a murder, a violent murder. Acts 7:52"
Please provide texts in context that prove your assertion that God ordered mankind to sin against Him and murder His Son. You will not find any. But you will find many that God used their sinful acts for our good.
God Bless
brightfame52
Active Member
Joe
Active Member
Brother,
It does make a difference no matter what you say. Commanding sinful acts to be done is different from using foreknown sinful acts.
Did God command Joseph's brothers to hate him and throw him down a well? No! But God foreknew it and predetermined to use their wicked actions to save many people from famine.
And in the same way, God foreknew the wickedness of Judas, the Jewish leaders, the Jewish people, and the Gentiles and He determined long ago before the foundation of the world to use them and their actions in His redemptive plan of mankind.
God did not command those involved to sin. He used their sinfulness according to His predetermined plan.
I really have no more desire to address this over and over with you. Denying it is simply refusing to accept the truth.
God Bless
