PSA as central to the Gospel
- Thread starter Diserner
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Joe
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God "commanded" or God gave over our Lord to those who would kill Him?
"Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death" (Act 2:23)
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." (Act 2:36)
God is never portrayed as commanding what men did to His Son, but by foreknowledge He knew what they would do, and He used their lawlessness under the power of the devil to "make the Author of their salvation perfect through suffering" and "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
You're conflating punishment from God with punishment from men that God used to "make the Author of their salvation perfect through suffering." And "In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered."
There is only one thing and one thing only that atones for the sin of mankind, the death of Jesus Christ. "For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
You cannot find anywhere in the bible that anything else atones for our sins but the blood-death of God's unblemished Lamb.
The beatings, scourging, thorns, insults, and hatred from lawless men never atoned for the sins of mankind according to God's Word. It is read into the text; assumed and yet never stated.
God Bless
brightfame52
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes according to His predetermined purpose Acts 4:27-28
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Alive
Active Member
Penal substitution diminishes the significance of Jesus’ life and resurrection. If penal substitution is correct, neither the life of Jesus nor his resurrection have much significance.
Jesus’ resurrection cannot be readily incorporated into a penal substitutionary doctrine of the atonement:
Penal substitution does not quite know what to make of the resurrection … The resurrection is seen only as the sign of the Father’s acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice, his affirmation of the sufficiency of what has been done to secure our pardon, and as a rather disconnected promise of life after death to those who belong to Christ.
Jesus’ resurrection cannot be readily incorporated into a penal substitutionary doctrine of the atonement:
Penal substitution does not quite know what to make of the resurrection … The resurrection is seen only as the sign of the Father’s acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice, his affirmation of the sufficiency of what has been done to secure our pardon, and as a rather disconnected promise of life after death to those who belong to Christ.
Joe
Active Member
I asked: God "commanded" or God gave over our Lord to those who would kill Him?
I'm assuming your reply of Yes is meant that He commanded, since you did not exactly specify.
First: That does not mean God commanded.
Second: It does not mean God commanded that beatings, whippings, scourging, insults, and hatred be required for the sins of mankind to be atoned. One is using something out of context to prove their misunderstanding that these actions atoned for our sins.
What is the one thing and one thing alone with no riders-customization that atoned for the sins of mankind?
It is not beatings.
It is not whippings.
It is not scourging.
It is not insults.
It is not hatred.
What is the only thing that atones for our sin? There is only one thing. What is it?
The believers prayer in Acts 4 recognized that man's wrath upon His Son Jesus could never operate outside of God's control, and even so it was according to His predetermined purpose.
As examples, the unbelieving Jews wanted to kill Him before God's predetermined time but they could not.
- "Therefore they sought to take Him; but no one laid a hand on Him, because His hour had not yet come." (Joh 7:30)
- "These words Jesus spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one laid hands on Him, for His hour had not yet come." (Joh 8:20)
Commanded? No. God did no such thing as command people to sin against Him.
God Bless
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civic
Active Member
Spot on
brightfame52
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civic
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Makes all the difference
brightfame52
Active Member
No it doesn't. If God predetermined something it's a done deal
civic
Active Member
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