Kirk Cameron and annihilationism
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I have read and studied 1 Corinthians 15. I don't find anywhere in that chapter that says that the raised body of Jesus was either glorified or immortal. Could you point it out to me where in that chapter it says that?
civic
Active Member
The entire chapter is based off of and from the Resurrection of Jesus the centerpiece of the gospel.
And who is the 1st man/adam and who is the 2nd man/adam ?
And denying the physical, bodily Resurrection /Ascension/Return of Jesus is a direct attack on the very gospel itself. Its one of the reasons the JW's preach a false gospel.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
We are promised a new glorified body.
The Bible discusses the new glorified body primarily in 1 Corinthians 15, where it explains that the resurrection body will be imperishable, glorious, and powerful, contrasting it with our current natural bodies. Additionally, Philippians 3:20-21 mentions that believers will be transformed to be like Christ's glorious body.
1 cor 15: 35-54
The Resurrection Body
35But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36You fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37And what you sow is not the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or something else. 38But God gives it a body as He has designed, and to each kind of seed He gives its own body.
39Not all flesh is the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another, and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the splendor of the heavenly bodies is of one degree, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is of another. 41The sun has one degree of splendor, the moon another, and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. 43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam a life-giving spirit.
46The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so also are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man.
Where, O Death, Is Your Victory?
(Hosea 13:9–14)
50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
And The Bible discusses Jesus' glorified body in 1 Corinthians 15:42-44, where it describes the transformation of the perishable body into an imperishable one, and the natural body into a spiritual body. Additionally, Philippians 3:20-21 mentions that Jesus will transform our lowly bodies to be like his glorious body.
Oh come now @civic, I am not denying the "physical, bodily Resurrection /Ascension/Return of Jesus". I asked a simple question. Apparently, one that you are not able to answer. There is not in all of 1 Corinthians 15 that speaks to the body of the raised Jesus being glorified and immortal.
You are confusing discussions about Jesus being raised, his resurrection if you will, and the resurrection at the end of the age. And for what it is worth, when it speaks of the raising of Jesus, different Greek words are used than that used for the resurrection at the end of the age. The Greek word for resurrection of the dead at the end of the age is ἀνάστασις [anastasis]. In speaking of Jesus' resurrection from the grave, the Greek word is ἔγερσις [egersis] (Matt 27:53). Again, for what it is worth that is the same word used to speak of Lazarus' resurrection at the hand of Jesus. I don't hold a lot to that, but I also do not think it to be insignificant.
The 2nd Adam is Jesus Christ both before and after crucifixion.
It doesn't speak of the "heavenly man". It speaks of our bearing the image of the heavenly, i.e., Jesus who was in heaven before coming as a man and who is in heaven now. Again, nothing there about a glorified and immortal physical body of Jesus following His being raised from the dead.
I see Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15 but I see nothing about his raised body being glorified and immortal. That is not 1 Corinthians 15, that is you,
civic
Active Member
You do realize 1 Corininthians 15 in the Greek has no verses right ?
That its one continual thought/topic right ?
Lets see all the references to Jesus below:
1 Corinthians 15
1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
“Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die.”
33Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” 34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.
33 references to Jesus above in verses 1-33- See a pattern here, a focus here from Paul ? Now Paul goes onto describing the Resurrected body and the different types of FLESH
Christ is mentioned 8 times below through the end of the chapter. Its all about Him in in 1 Corinthians 15- Jesus is mentiuoned no less than 40 times in this chapter.
35But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
50I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
55“Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
What happens at the trumphet sound about in 1 Corinthians 15:52-53
Below is the parallel passage about the same event when our bodies will be changed and be just like His ( Jesus ) human body. Paul goes into more detail below about who does the calling together of the saints/gathering them with the trumpet sound. Notice Jesus is mentioned another 4 times below.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. / After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Notice again in both passages about the same event- Paul is encouraging them.
1 Corinthians 15:35-58 corresponds with the above passage in Thessalonians.
I'm sorry you don't see its all about Jesus and His Resurrected body in 1 Corinthians 15.
I rest my case !
hope this helps !!!
I'm not saying it's one way or the other, but I think it's good to defend what the scripture says, and not to stop learning.
civic
Active Member
I been studying this topic for many years and debating it with the JW's who also teach what I consider the heresy of annihilationism
Annihilationism is the belief that, instead of suffering eternal punishment in hell, the wicked will ultimately be destroyed or cease to exist. This doctrine challenges the traditional Christian teaching of eternal conscious torment for the damned and asserts that, after a period of judgment, the souls of the unrighteous are annihilated, thus ending their existence. Annihilationism has appeared throughout Christian history but has consistently been rejected by historic Christian orthodoxy. For a modified view of annihilationism, see this article on Conditional Immortality (CI).
History of Annihilationism
- Early Church and Patristic Period: The earliest Christian writings affirm the traditional view of eternal punishment for the wicked, as seen in the teachings of Jesus (Matthew 25:46) and the Apostolic Fathers. However, certain early theologians, such as Origen (3rd century), introduced ideas that deviated from the traditional view, including his concept of universal reconciliation (although not annihilationism itself).
Arnobius of Sicca (late 3rd–early 4th century) is sometimes cited as one of the early Christian thinkers who leaned toward a form of annihilationism. He proposed that the souls of the wicked might face destruction rather than eternal torment. However, his views were not widely accepted or influential. - Reformation Era: During the Reformation, some radical Protestant groups began to question the traditional view of hell. Figures like Michael Servetus and the Socinians (a rationalist Unitarian movement) began to teach forms of conditional immortality—the belief that only the saved are granted eternal life, and the wicked simply cease to exist after judgment. This view gained traction among some Anabaptist and Unitarian groups.
- 19th and 20th Centuries: Annihilationism saw renewed interest in the 19th century with the rise of movements such as Seventh-day Adventism and Christadelphianism, both of which rejected the traditional doctrine of hell and taught conditional immortality or soul sleep (the belief that the soul is unconscious after death until the resurrection). Prominent advocates like Edward White and John Stott (a 20th-century evangelical theologian who leaned toward annihilationism later in life) contributed to modern discussions on this issue.
In the 20th century, Jehovah's Witnesses also became known for their belief in annihilationism, teaching that only the 144,000 faithful will reign with Christ, while the rest of humanity either enjoys life on a restored Earth or is annihilated after judgment. - Contemporary Annihilationism: Today, annihilationism is most commonly found within Adventist, Christadelphian, and Jehovah’s Witness circles, but it has also gained some attention among certain evangelical theologians who find the idea of eternal conscious torment difficult to reconcile with God’s love and justice. However, it remains a minority view in broader evangelicalism and is still rejected by the majority of Reformed and Catholic theologians.
Theology of Annihilationism
Annihilationism generally teaches that the wicked will not suffer eternal conscious punishment in hell but will instead face complete destruction or cessation of existence after being judged by God. There are different variations of this doctrine, but most annihilationists argue that immortality is a gift granted only to the righteous, while the wicked are either punished for a limited time and then annihilated or immediately destroyed after judgment.Key theological points in Annihilationism include:
- Conditional Immortality:
- Annihilationists often hold to the idea of conditional immortality, which teaches that only the saved are granted eternal life, while the unsaved do not possess an immortal soul. The wicked are not inherently immortal and, after a period of punishment, are destroyed rather than existing forever in hell.
- This contrasts with the traditional view that both the righteous and the wicked will experience eternal existence, either in the joy of heaven or the torment of hell.
- God's Justice and Love:
- Annihilationists argue that the traditional doctrine of eternal torment is inconsistent with the biblical teachings about God’s justice and love. They claim that it would be unjust for finite sins committed in a human lifetime to result in infinite, unending punishment.
- They also argue that eternal torment contradicts the nature of God’s love and mercy, suggesting that a loving God would not allow creatures to suffer forever.
- Destruction in Scripture:
- Annihilationists often point to biblical passages that speak of the destruction of the wicked (e.g., Matthew 10:28; 2 Thessalonians 1:9) as evidence that the final punishment is death or destruction, not eternal suffering. They interpret terms like “perish,” “destruction,” and “death” literally, understanding them as pointing to non-existence rather than eternal suffering.
- Hell as the Second Death:
- Annihilationists often interpret hell (or the lake of fire) as the second death described in Revelation 20:14-15. They argue that this “second death” is the final and complete annihilation of the wicked, rather than eternal conscious torment.
Why Annihilationism is Considered Heretical by Historic Christian Orthodoxy
Annihilationism is considered heretical or, at the very least, a serious theological error by most branches of historic Christianity for the following reasons:- Contradicts the Teaching of Eternal Conscious Punishment:
- The historic Christian view, rooted in the teachings of Jesus and the Apostolic Fathers, is that the punishment of the wicked is eternal and conscious. Jesus clearly speaks of eternal fire and torment in several passages (e.g., Matthew 25:46—"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life"), which implies unending existence in a state of punishment for the unrighteous.
- Revelation 14:11 also speaks of the wicked, saying, "The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night." These texts are interpreted by traditional theologians to mean everlasting conscious torment.
- Distorts the Biblical Concept of Justice:
- Traditional Christian theology teaches that God’s justice demands eternal punishment for those who reject Him. Sin against an infinite, holy God requires a proportional punishment, which is eternal because it reflects the seriousness of rebelling against the Creator.
- Annihilationism, by proposing that the wicked simply cease to exist, minimizes the gravity of sin and distorts the biblical teaching on divine retribution.
- Undermines the Doctrine of Immortality:
- Orthodox Christian doctrine teaches that all human beings possess immortality by virtue of their creation in the image of God. This immortality applies both to the saved and the unsaved, who will experience eternal life or eternal punishment (John 5:28-29; Daniel 12:2).
- Annihilationism’s teaching of conditional immortality is a departure from the traditional view that both the righteous and the wicked will experience eternal consequences.
- The Consistent Testimony of Church Tradition:
- From the early church fathers (e.g., Tertullian, Augustine) to the medieval theologians (e.g., Thomas Aquinas) and Reformers (e.g., John Calvin, Martin Luther), the doctrine of eternal punishment has been a cornerstone of Christian teaching. The church’s understanding of hell as eternal conscious punishment is deeply rooted in its interpretation of Scripture and has been upheld by major creeds and confessions throughout history.
- The Apostles’ Creed and Nicene Creed affirm belief in life everlasting, implying eternal life for the righteous and eternal consequences for the wicked.
The Historic Christian Orthodox View
The orthodox Christian view holds to the doctrine of eternal conscious punishment for the wicked and eternal life for the righteous, based on the teachings of Jesus, the apostles, and the consistent witness of the church.- Eternal Life and Eternal Punishment:
- In Matthew 25:46, Jesus says, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." The parallel between eternal punishment and eternal life suggests that both are of the same duration. The righteous experience eternal bliss, and the wicked experience eternal separation from God and conscious suffering.
- Human Responsibility and Divine Justice:
- The traditional doctrine of hell emphasizes the seriousness of sin and human rebellion against God. Hell is seen as just retribution for rejecting God’s grace, with the Bible consistently presenting it as a place of unending torment for those who refuse to repent (Luke 16:23-24; Revelation 14:9-11).
- Immortality of the Soul:
- Christian orthodoxy teaches that all people possess immortal souls (1 Corinthians 15:53-54), which will be raised at the final judgment. Both the righteous and the wicked will face eternity, with their souls and bodies either glorified in eternal life or condemned to eternal suffering.
- God’s Love and Justice:
- While God is infinitely loving, He is also perfectly just. The doctrine of hell reflects the seriousness of sin and the rejection of God’s love. It also underscores the justice of God in upholding His holiness and providing appropriate punishment for those who reject Him.
Conclusion
Annihilationism represents a significant departure from the historic Christian teaching on hell and eternal punishment. While it attempts to reconcile the concept of God’s justice with modern sensibilities about love and fairness, it ultimately distorts the biblical doctrine of sin, judgment, and immortality. Historic Christian orthodoxy has consistently affirmed the reality of eternal conscious punishment for the wicked, upholding the biblical teaching that God’s justice requires a proportional and eternal response to sin.https://www.monergism.com/annihilationismhope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
annihilationism basically is a thing these days dues to humanism, its makes people "feel" good about the afterlife. its a sign of the times and a departure from biblical truth. it was predicted by the writers of scripture in. the end times they would go after false doctrines, having their ears tickled. I have no interest in Camerons views. But he has many followers who will swallow the poison pill of heresy he is peddeling
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
2 Peter 2:1-3
Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. / Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of truth will be defamed. / In their greed, these false teachers will exploit you with deceptive words. The longstanding verdict against them remains in force, and their destruction does not sleep.
Matthew 24:11-12
and many false prophets will arise and deceive many. / Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold.
Acts 20:29-30
I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. / Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them.
1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Jude 1:17-19
But you, beloved, remember what was foretold by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ / when they said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow after their own ungodly desires.” / These are the ones who cause divisions, who are worldly and devoid of the Spirit.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
2 Peter 2:1-3
Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. / Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of truth will be defamed. / In their greed, these false teachers will exploit you with deceptive words. The longstanding verdict against them remains in force, and their destruction does not sleep.
Matthew 24:11-12
and many false prophets will arise and deceive many. / Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold.
Acts 20:29-30
I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. / Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them.
1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Jude 1:17-19
But you, beloved, remember what was foretold by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ / when they said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow after their own ungodly desires.” / These are the ones who cause divisions, who are worldly and devoid of the Spirit.
I have looked up the scriptures, there is scripture proof, for both beliefs.
I watched the whole video, it's over an hour long, but I would think it would be definitely wrong to reject relevant scriptures!
I don't care if the information came from talking monkeys. Information is still information that might be useful. I have never been afraid to watch any video or go on any website to gather information, pertaining to any scripture in God's word the Bible.
Here's the problem: It was Satan who said Ye shall not surely die. But the wages of sin is death, not being tortured forever.
Jesus saves us from that second death. Those who do not accept Jesus, are going to die according to John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." This verse means that those who do not believe in Him WILL perish, and not stay in a state of dying forever. Also 1 Tim 6:16 says that God alone hath immortality. We are not immortal.
Jesus saves us from that second death. Those who do not accept Jesus, are going to die according to John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." This verse means that those who do not believe in Him WILL perish, and not stay in a state of dying forever. Also 1 Tim 6:16 says that God alone hath immortality. We are not immortal.
civic
Active Member
I’ve watched the video when it first came out and I know what the doctrine teaches long before Cameron knew what it even meantI have looked up the scriptures, there is scripture proof, for both beliefs.
I watched the whole video, it's over an hour long, but I would think it would be definitely wrong to reject relevant scriptures!
I don't care if the information came from talking monkeys. Information is still information that might be useful. I have never been afraid to watch any video or go on any website to gather information, pertaining to any scripture in God's word the Bible.
atpollard
Active Member
Wow, you are old.I’ve watched the video when it first came out and I know what the doctrine teaches long before Cameron was even born
civic
Active Member
Kinda sorta , turning 66 next week. Well I’m only 11 years older than him. So I exaggerated a bitWow, you are old.
