Predestination and Determinism
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
LOL ,dumbest thing I have ever heard. Believe so I can gift you faith says no Bible or theologian anywhere.
civic
Active Member
I’ve already quoted the only 4 verses in the NT that mention it’s a gift and every time it’s a believer .
Can an unbeliever have the fruit of the spirit? Yes or no
Case closed
LOL, it does not say that belief has any causation when it comes to faith. Your view, as silly as it is, has geniune believers without saving faith.
That's a new one I will give you that.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
No one can reasonably deny this at all. Faith is synergistic.
Salvation is of the Lord..... Monenergism.
Faith.....Synergism.
Why is why the demand that Salvation from some is "either or" is nothing more than a false dichotomy. It is both Synergistic and Monenergistic.
Last edited:
synergy
Active Member
I see that Matt 25:23 has placed you in an utter state of shock to where all you can do is deny it. Typical calvinist reaction. Denial comes first but hopefully you will allow your mind to face reality. I'm not holding my breath...
I simply asked to explain it's relevance to the topic at hand and apparently your incapable of doing so. I, for one, am shocked.
synergy
Active Member
You were stigmatizing people who "believe all men are endowed with a measure of faith. Those who choose to exercise it properly are rewarded with eternal life. That's called merit."
In sharp contrast to your statement, Matt 25:23 talks in good terms about a faithful servant who chose to exercise his faith, by multiplying his God-given "talents", an integral part of his faithfulness, and enters into the joy of our Lord. A calvinist would rip that parable out of his Bible and scream "Merit!" in utter horror, in similar fashion to what you wrote.
It's simply not Biblical. That's the issue
atpollard
Active Member
... but does the ability?
We (man) also has a responsibility to obey the whole Law of God.
We (man) also has a responsibility to shun sin.
We (man) do neither [also according to "Sola Scriptura"], therefore having a responsibility to do something does not automatically mean that we have the ability to do it. If we could obey the law and live sinless, the job of the CHRIST and the HOLY SPIRIT would be far simpler than it is (according to God's laments in Scripture).
Ephesians 1 paints a picture of "GOD has a plan" while Ephesians 2 paints a picture of "GOD works out His plan on/in/through us". Both paint GOD as the "PRIME MOVER" and man as the "object" acted upon. Never in those chapters is man presented as being the "driving force" in salvation. Never is OUR RESPONSIBILITY or OUR ACTIONS the "first cause" of anything good (we are the first cause of our sin early in Ephesians 2).
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Where does the law demand that you sell all you have and follow Jesus?
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Would you say Jesus misspoke that this man didn't keep the law?
Yes it does
John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?
Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief
Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed
Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven
Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”
unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe
Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Mat 11:21-24 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe
Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.
John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief
2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As is the preaching of it.
Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?
Miracles have power to bring about faith
atpollard
Active Member
Good question.
Why would God actively prevent someone from being saved?
Are you advocating this as the "FIRST CAUSE" of all damnation? RADICAL SUPRALAPSARIANISM! God actively choosing those whom He will damn and preventing them from following their natural desire to believe and be saved.
You raised the issue ... do you have an explanation for the verse?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Mar 6:4 Then Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown, and among his relatives, and in his own house.”
Mar 6:5 He was not able to do a miracle there, except to lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them.
Mar 6:6 And he was amazed because of their unbelief. Then he went around among the villages and taught.
Yes amazed at their unbelief not amazed by an idea that God was with-holding faith from them
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Retracted. My mistake.
Last edited:
So why did you not answer it
What need is there to prevent one from believing who has no capacity to believe (see who has no capacity to see)
BTW Yes i do.
Behold
Active Member
And a few verses later the NT says that some did believe who are in that group.
The way to understand this "hardening", stuff....
"God gave them over to THEIR desires"....
Its the same in Romans 1, when talking about Homosexuals, and "strong delusion".
So, why would God "turn you over" to "stay deceived"?
Its because a person can become "conscience seared" and can never hear the Holy Spirit, ever again.
So, that is the "hardened"... and the "strong delusion".. Its God's ability to FOREKNOW when a person is too far gone to be brought back.
You can read Hebrews 6 &10 and see the "unpardonable sin" being committed by those JEWS.
You can read Acts 28:28 and find those same JEWS, being rejected by PAUL.
"trodden underfoot the blood" "doing despite to the spirit of Grace".
That is such a hardened heart, such a seared conscience, that no amount of God's Love can reach it.
Paul calls this "stiff necked" and they are GONE.
There is no hope for that one.
Last edited:
Jesus had a further intention in mind known as the messianic secret
He had a mission to go to the cross. Had he been accepted as messiah the crucifixion would never have happened
Behold
Active Member
Well,
Jesus was accepted by some as Messiah, but what the House of Israel didnt understand was why Jesus came, and that was their confusion.
They wanted a King to "get those Romans out of Here and lets get our Kingdom up and running".
But Jesus was sent, ultimately, as a Blood Atonement for the World.
Jesus on The Cross is the Birthday of CHRISTianity., and His resurrection proved it.
Similar threads
