Predestination and Determinism

[TomL]

Your position is contradictory. Faith in your system involves merit.

Scripture refutes your claims and you are not able to deal with it

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
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Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

which is why you can neither quote scripture to support your view or rebut contrary to your view scripture

 

[atpollard]

Don't somehow think Scriptures are in agreement with you.

Please explain from those verses why one man hears and believes and another man hears and rejects. What is the “first cause” (uncaused cause) … the uncontrolled variable that determines the difference (according to 1 Cor 1:21)?

 

[TomL]

Respectfully, I am a Particular Baptist and, thus, as unimpressed by what John Calvin said as I am with what the Pope and Magisterium have to say. We take “Sola Scriptura” seriously.

Setting that point aside, “belief is the cause of salvation” is a half-truth that merely kicks the ball down the field. What then, is the source of “belief” that two men should hear the exact same words from the lips of even Christ Himself and one man scoffs and the other weeps in repentance? Does the “first cause” (the uncaused cause that determines the different results) lie with God or with Man?

What does Ephesians tell us? Paul dedicated the first two chapters of his letter to this subject?

God chooses men.
Soli Deo Gloria!

(verses available upon request, but it is more fun if you discover them for yourself)

The responsibility to believe resides with man

Acts 16:30–31 (NASB 2020) — 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Acts 2:37–38 (NASB 2020) — 37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what are we to do?” 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 6:27–30 (NASB 2020) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” 30 So they said to Him, “What then are You doing as a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work are You performing?

that is sola scriptura

 

[TomL]

Please explain from those verses why one man hears and believes and another man hears and rejects. What is the “first cause” (uncaused cause) … the uncontrolled variable that determines the difference (according to 1 Cor 1:21)?

Man himself who believes

 

[TomL]

Your position is contradictory. Faith in your system involves merit.

Sorry you reject scripture and replace it with a mantra from your theology

omans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
..................
Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

 

[Presby02]

Sorry you reject scripture and replace it with a mantra from your theology

omans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
..................
Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Your position is contradictory. According to you it's "your" faith and you are rewarded for using it correctly. That's call merit. Look it up

 

[TomL]

Your position is contradictory. According to you it's "your" faith and you are rewarded for using it correctly. That's call merit. Look it up

Sorry you reject scripture and replace it with a mantra from your theology

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
..................
Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


Why do you not believe scripture?

 

[Presby02]

Sorry you reject scripture and replace it with a mantra from your theology

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
..................
Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


Why do you not believe scripture?

Still contradictory. How does your boy civic put it? Oh ya, lipstick on a pig.

It's your faith and you are rewarded for using it correctly. That's called merit. Look it up

 

[TomL]

Still contradictory. How does your boy civic put it? Oh ya, lipstick on a pig.

It's your faith and you are rewarded for using it correctly. That's called merit. Look it up

Sorry you reject scripture and replace it with a mantra from your theology

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
..................
Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


Why do you not believe scripture?

 

[Presby02]

Sorry you reject scripture and replace it with a mantra from your theology

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
..................
Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,co


Why do you not believe scripture?

Contradictory. Provisionist believe all men are endowed with a measure of faith. Those who choose to exercise it properly are rewarded with eternal life. That's called merit.

 

[Johann]

Please explain from those verses why one man hears and believes and another man hears and rejects. What is the “first cause” (uncaused cause) … the uncontrolled variable that determines the difference (according to 1 Cor 1:21)?

In John 12:47, Jesus says, "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world". However, in the previous verses, Jesus says that those who do not believe in him are "in darkness". John 3:18 says, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son". John 5:24 says that rejecting Jesus means rejecting God, and those who reject God are under God's judgment.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Please explain from those verses why one man hears and believes and another man hears and rejects. What is the “first cause” (uncaused cause) … the uncontrolled variable that determines the difference (according to 1 Cor 1:21)?

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1. This world has "CHANGED" over time. Do you deny this?

This world once knew God. In fact, Paul says this very clearly and unmistakably in Romans chapter 1.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God,

Which is a reference to when God "repented" of creating man.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

2. The Gospel births men.

1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

God sends preachers. The Gospel wins. You have a very poor equation in your line of questioning. You're leaving much of what takes place OUT. You have a partial Gospel. How do you expect anyone to be saved with an incomplete message?

YOU are WHY men are not saved.

Now, I don't expect you actually deal with this at all. You've always taken the "hit and run" approach. By all means, prove me wrong.

 

[synergy]

Contradictory. Provisionist believe all men are endowed with a measure of faith. Those who choose to exercise it properly are rewarded with eternal life. That's called merit.

Read Matt 25:23. A faithful servant is one who multiplies his God-given "talents", an integral part of his faithfulness, and enters into the joy of the Lord. No boasting to be seen here. A calvinist would rip that parable out of his Bible and scream "Merit!" in utter horror.

23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

 

[civic]

Read Matt 25:23. A faithful servant is one who multiplies his God-given "talents", an integral part of his faithfulness, and enters into the joy of the Lord. No boasting to be seen here. A calvinist would rip that parable out of his Bible and scream "Merit!" in utter horror.

23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

Amen

 

[Presby02]

Read Matt 25:23. A faithful servant is one who multiplies his God-given "talents", an integral part of his faithfulness, and enters into the joy of the Lord. No boasting to be seen here. A calvinist would rip that parable out of his Bible and scream "Merit!" in utter horror.

23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

Read it. Whoopee. What nonsense are you imposing on this paticular text?

 

[civic]

Read it. Whoopee. What nonsense are you imposing on this paticular text?

what part of a man being faithful don't you understand ?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Read Matt 25:23. A faithful servant is one who multiplies his God-given "talents", an integral part of his faithfulness, and enters into the joy of the Lord. No boasting to be seen here. A calvinist would rip that parable out of his Bible and scream "Merit!" in utter horror.

23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

Yep.....

Interestingly, Paul sought to WIN.......

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Does God take pleasure in those who seek to win Him?

Most certainly.

 

[Presby02]

what part of a man being faithful don't you understand ?

All of it. Explain it's relevance to the topic at hand.

 

[civic]

All of it. Explain it's relevance to the topic at hand.

I can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink. Faith is synergistic.

 

[Presby02]

I can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink. Faith is synergistic.

Nope. It's a gift of God.