Praying to Jesus

[Runningman]

Would you mind posting the scripture?

There are two white horses mentioned in the book of Revelation. The first white horse is the Antichrist; the second is Jesus Christ, the King of kings and Lord of lords.

I would have to disagree Jesus is called the "King of kings and Lord of lords" (in that word order) in Scripture. I agree about "Lord of lords and King of kings" but the word order is switched to show distinction from God. Check 1 Timothy 6:13-16 where the King of kings and Lord of lords is not Jesus, but the Father.

 

[Selah]

I would have to disagree Jesus is called the "King of kings and Lord of lords" (in that word order) in Scripture. I agree about "Lord of lords and King of kings" but the word order is switched to show distinction from God. Check 1 Timothy 6:13-16 where the King of kings and Lord of lords is not Jesus, but the Father.

First let’s get back to the white horse being God, if you don’t mind. You got a scripture handy? Then we’ll discuss the rest. Okay?

 

[TomL]

Jesus isn't ever called the Word of God in scripture. The Word of God is distinct from Jesus.

Here's an example...

Revelation 20
4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God...

So you imagine Jehovah is spoken of


Revelation 19:13 (ESV) — 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.


Rev 20:4 is not addressing a person but the written/spoken word of God

And in Rev 19:13 it is the name of a person

Revelation 19:11–16 (ESV) — 11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

and he is the king of kings and lord of lords

 

[Selah]

So you imagine Jehovah is spoken of


Revelation 19:13 (ESV) — 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.


Rev 20:4 is not addressing a person but the written word of God

And in Rev 19:13 it is the name of a person

Revelation 19:11–16 (ESV) — 11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

and he is the king of kings and lord of lords

Revelation 19-11 describes the second horse which is ridden by the King of kings and Lord of lords at His Second Advent.

The first horse that we read about in Revelation 6:1-2 is the Antichrist claiming to be Christ:

Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, "Come and see." And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

- Revelation 6:1-2

Revelation 20:4 refers to the millennium when Jesus returns.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

- Revelation 20:4

selah

 

[TomL]

Revelation 19-11 describes the second horse which is ridden by the King of kings and Lord of lords at His Second Advent.

The first horse that we read about in Revelation 6:1-2 is the Antichrist claiming to be Christ:

Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, "Come and see." And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

- Revelation 6:1-2

selah

We both agree the rider at Rev 19 is not God the Father

 

[Runningman]

First let’s get back to the white horse being God, if you don’t mind. You got a scripture handy? Then we’ll discuss the rest. Okay?

Yes I have Scripture for why I believe the rider is the Father.

1. And its rider is called Faithful = "the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God" - Deuteronomy 7:9

2. and True = "But the LORD is the true God;" - Jeremiah 10:10, John 17:3

3. With righteousness He judges = 'But God is the judge:' - Psalm 75:7

4. and wages war. = "the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you." - Deuteronomy 20:4

5. He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. = This is the Father because the other descriptions about the Father are all the Father.

6. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. = Jesus doesn't know what only God knows. Matthew 24:36

7. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God. = "their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment." - Isaiah 63:3

8. The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. = "my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?" = Matthew 26:53

9. from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword = "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword," - Hebrews 4:12

10. He will rule them with an iron scepter. = "for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me." - Psalm 23:4

11. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. = "I have trodden the winepress alone; " - Isaiah 63:3

12. And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. = "who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;" - 1 Timothy 6:15

 

[Runningman]

So you imagine Jehovah is spoken of


Revelation 19:13 (ESV) — 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.

Jesus is never said to have worn a robe with blood on it, but YHWH was. Isaiah 63:3

Rev 20:4 is not addressing a person but the written/spoken word of God

And in Rev 19:13 it is the name of a person

Revelation 19:11–16 (ESV) — 11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

and he is the king of kings and lord of lords

That's definitively not Jesus then.

 

[TomL]

Jesus is never said to have worn a robe with blood on it, but YHWH was. Isaiah 63:3

That's definitively not Jesus then.

UM Jehovah God is not called the word of God

Really ? Jesus is called king of kings

Revelation 17:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Are you going to make Jehovah the lamb as well

 

[Selah]

Yes I have Scripture for why I believe the rider is the Father.

1. And its rider is called Faithful = "the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God" - Deuteronomy 7:9

2. and True = "But the LORD is the true God;" - Jeremiah 10:10, John 17:3

3. With righteousness He judges = 'But God is the judge:' - Psalm 75:7

4. and wages war. = "the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you." - Deuteronomy 20:4

5. He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. = This is the Father because the other descriptions about the Father are all the Father.

6. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. = Jesus doesn't know what only God knows. Matthew 24:36

7. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God. = "their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment." - Isaiah 63:3

8. The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. = "my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?" = Matthew 26:53

9. from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword = "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword," - Hebrews 4:12

10. He will rule them with an iron scepter. = "for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me." - Psalm 23:4

11. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. = "I have trodden the winepress alone; " - Isaiah 63:3

12. And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. = "who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;" - 1 Timothy 6:15

Good morning Thank you for providing “lotsa” Scripture—but still, we disagree.

Let me just bring in some things that I’m sure we both agree on. We know that one of our Father's many promises was that there would be two advents of Christ Jesus, the first of which would be as the Lamb of God, Emmanuel (God with us), who would come and dwell among us in a fleshly tabernacle and pay the ultimate price on the cross of Calvary to save and redeem His children.

The second coming, however, would not be as a Lamb to be slain, but as the mighty King of kings and Lord of lords who would "raise up out of His habitation" (Zech. 2:13) and execute justice and righteousness among all nations.

We can be sure that God has not forgotten that promise, and just as surely as the first advent came to pass 2000 years ago and was fulfilled exactly as it is written, so will the second advent come to pass and be fulfilled exactly as it is written.

s.

 

[TomL]

Yes I have Scripture for why I believe the rider is the Father.


9. from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword = "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword," - Hebrews 4:12

UM that is Christ

Um Revelation 1:12–18 (NASB 2020) — 12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And after turning I saw seven golden lampstands; 13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and wrapped around the chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze when it has been heated to a glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

 

[synergy]

Yes I have Scripture for why I believe the rider is the Father.

1. And its rider is called Faithful = "the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God" - Deuteronomy 7:9

2. and True = "But the LORD is the true God;" - Jeremiah 10:10, John 17:3

3. With righteousness He judges = 'But God is the judge:' - Psalm 75:7

4. and wages war. = "the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you." - Deuteronomy 20:4

5. He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. = This is the Father because the other descriptions about the Father are all the Father.

6. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. = Jesus doesn't know what only God knows. Matthew 24:36

7. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God. = "their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment." - Isaiah 63:3

8. The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. = "my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?" = Matthew 26:53

9. from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword = "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword," - Hebrews 4:12

10. He will rule them with an iron scepter. = "for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me." - Psalm 23:4

11. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. = "I have trodden the winepress alone; " - Isaiah 63:3

12. And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. = "who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;" - 1 Timothy 6:15

Actually, you inadvertently offered support to Jesus' claim that he is the "I Am" OT God. Thank you for all that support. So it's not that the Father is the the Word (John 1:1 makes that an impossibility) but that the Word (Jesus) is the "I Am" God of the OT (explicitly supported by John 8:58 and Ex 3:14).

 

[TomL]

Yes I have Scripture for why I believe the rider is the Father.

3. With righteousness He judges = 'But God is the judge:' - Psalm 75:7

Christ judges John 5:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Romans 14:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

 

[TomL]

Yes I have Scripture for why I believe the rider is the Father.



5. He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. = This is the Father because the other descriptions about the Father are all the Father.

Compare

Revelation 1:12–18 (NASB 2020) — 12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And after turning I saw seven golden lampstands; 13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and wrapped around the chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze when it has been heated to a glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

It's Christ

 

[TomL]

Yes I have Scripture for why I believe the rider is the Father.

4. and wages war. = "the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you." - Deuteronomy 20:4

Revelation 17:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

 

[Runningman]

UM Jehovah God is not called the word of God

Jesus wasn't called the word of God in scripture either. This is prophetic.

Really ? Jesus is called king of kings

Revelation 17:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Observe the word order is different and it doesn't match what was written on him. Only the Father is the King of kings and Lord of lords.

Are you going to make Jehovah the lamb as well

No way. Are you?

 

[Runningman]

Good morning View attachment 866 Thank you for providing “lotsa” Scripture—but still, we disagree.

Let me just bring in some things that I’m sure we both agree on. We know that one of our Father's many promises was that there would be two advents of Christ Jesus, the first of which would be as the Lamb of God, Emmanuel (God with us), who would come and dwell among us in a fleshly tabernacle and pay the ultimate price on the cross of Calvary to save and redeem His children.

Verse?

The second coming, however, would not be as a Lamb to be slain, but as the mighty King of kings and Lord of lords who would "raise up out of His habitation" (Zech. 2:13) and execute justice and righteousness among all nations.

Verse?

We can be sure that God has not forgotten that promise, and just as surely as the first advent came to pass 2000 years ago and was fulfilled exactly as it is written, so will the second advent come to pass and be fulfilled exactly as it is written.

s.

The same way Jesus was "taken" into heaven is the same way he will return. It won't be under his own power nor does he know the time he comes back. He will be brought back by God, not under his own power, according to Scripture.

 

[Runningman]

UM that is Christ

Um Revelation 1:12–18 (NASB 2020) — 12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And after turning I saw seven golden lampstands; 13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and wrapped around the chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze when it has been heated to a glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

The sharp-two edged sword is the word of God, not Jesus himself.

Wasn't Jesus' words not his own? His teachings not his own? Who is the real word of God then... the one from whom the words originate or someone who repeats them. This is easy... you aren't the word of God if you say God's words are you?

 

[Runningman]

Actually, you inadvertently offered support to Jesus' claim that he is the "I Am" OT God. Thank you for all that support. So it's not that the Father is the the Word (John 1:1 makes that an impossibility) but that the Word (Jesus) is the "I Am" God of the OT (explicitly supported by John 8:58 and Ex 3:14).

We still have Acts 3:13 and Exodus 3:14-15 proving that Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. You could simply agree with Scripture, but it seems you have made the Scriptures your enemy, at least on this point.

 

[Runningman]

Christ judges John 5:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Romans 14:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

It's more nuanced than that. The Father is still judge.

Acts 17
31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

 

[Runningman]

Compare

Revelation 1:12–18 (NASB 2020) — 12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And after turning I saw seven golden lampstands; 13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and wrapped around the chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze when it has been heated to a glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

It's Christ

Symbolism. It applies to others who aren't Jesus as well. The context is about the Father.

Daniel 10
6His body was like beryl, his face like the brilliance of lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of polished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.