Praying to Jesus

[civic]

There is no suggestion of a pre-existence in saying someone is made in human likeness. Are you saying Jesus isn't a human but is rather similar to a human?

His Pre existence

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.



All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.


John 1:14

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory


These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning

John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"


John 1:30
This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'


John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.


Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.

John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.


This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.


John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.


Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.


John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."


Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.


Jhn 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Fath


John 17:1,5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.


Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God. Below again we see His pre existence and in 17:25 Jesus again states the Father sent the Son into

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.

Below we read it was the Son who already existed as the Son which the Father sent into the world.

John 3:16-17
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

1 Cor 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

Gal 4:4
But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,


1 John 4:14
And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

In 1 John 3:8 we see that the Son of Gods appearance or manifestation was for this very purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. The verb φανερόω means to make manifest, appeared, to make visible or to bring to light something that was previously hidden. This clearly means that Jesus had already existed as the Son of God and He was made manifest or visible to us.

Now we also know from Johns writings that those who deny Jesus came in the flesh are the spirit of antichrist. Those who deny God became flesh and dwelt among us are deceivers. The Incarnation was permanent as we read in 2 John 7- Jesus has come in the flesh. A past action with present results.


Col 1:13-18
For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Heb 1:2-3
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

Heb 1:8
But of the Son He says,

"Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever,

Heb 5:7-8
In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.


The question is who or what was He before the days of His flesh? It is obvious that He pre existed before His birth(days of His flesh) as the Divine Son who is the 2nd person of the Trinity.

Hope this helps !!!

 

[synergy]

ABSOLUTELY TRUE
and
JESUS said so

That's the stumbling block for all heretics, like Mormons and Judaizers, who claim that Divine appearances are the Father. Their claim flies in the face of what Jesus says.

 

[Runningman]

This world's religious philosophy that the Word of God didn't come to earth as a mortal human, but "fully" God, is a popular, but insidious lie, if the Holy Scriptures are our guide "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". "Many" preachers, of all manner of religious sects and businesses "who come in Christ's Name", preach to the world that Jesus, "a man of sorrows", overcame sin and Temptations, not by Faith and humble obedience to His Father as the holy Scriptures teach, like HE instructs others "to do", but that HE overcame Sin and Temptations "BECAUSE" HE came to earth as "Fully God". So when the going got tough for Him, like it does for all men of Faith, HE just kicked in some supernatural God Powers no other human has ever had access to, and overcame sin and temptation in that way.

In this religious philosophy, promoted by "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, Jesus didn't "lay down His Life" for anyone. He didn't Risk anything for others. He never feared, He couldn't be tempted, and He never died, "because" HE was "Fully God", not "fully man". So His Faith was never tried, because HE didn't need faith, and yet God gave Him a name above all other humans ever born of a woman.

This would be likened unto a coach of a sports team whose son was also on the team. And the coach withheld performance enhancement drugs to everyone on the team, but to his son, he gave him all he could take. And then, when his son outperformed all the other players, the coach gave the son the trophy and all the rewards and praise. The God and Father of the Lord's Christ didn't behave in this manner at all, at least according to Scriptures.

The foundation of this false teaching is the result of believing another insidious falsehood about God, taught by Many on this same forum, and that is that when men in the Holy scriptures actually believed the God of the Bible, and humbled themselves to trust Him and His Word, HE placed on their necks a "Yoke of Bondage", "Beggarly Elements" and "Rudiments of this world", AKA, Laws impossible to keep. And then slaughtered thousands of His own people for breaking these same impossible to keep Laws HE said was for their own wellbeing. Making God out to be a liar, just as the serpent convinced Eve.

So His Son, that they worship, with long flowing hair and handsome profile, had to come and save mankind, not from Sin (Transgression of God's Laws), because they preach it's impossible not to steal, not to lie, not to cheat others, etc, but from His Father's impossible Laws, or at least the ones that cannot be used as a marketing strategy to grow their religious business and non-profit organizations.

And like the religious sect of the Pharisees before them, they omit and twist Scriptures and promote commandments and traditions of men, to promote their own religion.

In this philosophy and idolatry, they demean the Great Sacrifice the Word of God who became Flesh and dwelled among men made for me. They belittle Him as a scam artist who pretended to die, pretended to be tempted, pretended to be a mortal human but HE wasn't a mortal human, rather, "Fully God".

And they relegate God the Father of the Lord's Christ as a tyrant, and a cheat and a liar, whose Words cannot be trusted.

So when Paul said "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

This world's self-proclaimed "ministers of righteousness" interpret this to others as:


14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (OF GOD) that was against us, which was contrary to us, (Not the prophesied corrupt priesthood that ruled Jerusalem) and took it out of the way, nailing it (God's Laws) to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, (God and the Prophets HE sent to us, not those chief priests who "Professed to know God, but in works denied Him") he made a shew of them (GOD, and the Prophets, not those religious zealots teaching for doctrines the commandments of men) openly, triumphing over them (GOD) in it. (Not the hypocrites in the Synagogues seeking the praise of men, and not God)

I advocate that men "come out of" this world's corrupt religions, as they have rejected God's Judgments, and created their own. They have created an image of God in the likeness of a long-haired men's hair shampoo model and have created their own high days in worship of their idol, while rejecting the Feasts of the Lord and HIS Instruction in Righteousness.

I know there are some who are called out of these religions, just as Abraham, Caleb, Shadrack, and every example of Faith in the Holy scriptures were called out. I want these folks to know they are not alone and not to fear the ridicule they will endure as a result of Trusting the Words of the Christ "of the Bible" and the Words that proceeded out of the mouth of HIS Father who sent Him.

Yes and amen. A big part of why they want Jesus to be God is so they don't have to try to be like him. According to Scripture, Christianity is not an easy religion. The Scriptures don't attract those who are looking for an easy ride on the coattails of Jesus all the way to heaven. Jesus taught that the way which leads to life is difficult in Matthew 7:13-14 and there is the ultimate possibility of not being found worthy of receiving eternal life at their works-based judgement, according to Paul in Romans 2:5-7.

This message doesn't attract people who are willing to stuff the church coffers with their hard-earned money for a potential guarantee of nothing. It also doesn't attract people who don't want to sacrifice their potentially easy life in exchange for a potentially more difficult life that serves God. It only attracts those who love the Lord and it weeds out the fakers. This is the way it was designed from the beginning. God doesn't need fakers on His team and Jesus wasn't looking for them either.

While Jesus is the sacrificial Lamb that made atonement for sins, the grace of God only applies to those who are walking in the Light or living by faith. This is just Bible-speak for saying those who are living a life of righteousness have access to the sacrifice of Jesus that cleanses them from all sin, according 1 John 1:7. This is also repeated in a similar manner in Hebrews 10:26.

This all ultimately flies in the face of many of the gospels circulating in Protestant circles. In those circles, Jesus is God whose sacrifice allows them to sin as much as they want without consequence. These doctrines are of the variety that itch peoples' ears and tell them what they want to hear with little to no risk to themselves or their life. While it's true Trinitarianism did get a boost from the governmental authorities at the time emperor allowed Trinitarianism to be made the official state religion at the time, it is mostly popular nowadays due to false gospels that ultimately mislead others into idolatry and miscellaneous other sins.

 

[Runningman]

Like yourself, the short posts with a scripture or two works best for me.

There is no scripture that declares 'the LAMB' was slain twice.

As a matter of FACT, the scripture DECLARES that JESUS suffered ONCE our sins, NEVER to suffer again.

Hebrews 9:28
Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are [k]copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.
To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

So then why does God tell us this: "the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world"

HERE is why = Isaiah 46:10

"Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,"

SHALOM

That's true. There are no Scriptures that say Jesus was slain twice. So what we have here in Revelation 13:8 is Jesus allegedly having pre-existed and being slain and then being slain another time in Israel as the gospels state. So numerically, that is two slayings in contradiction to Hebrews 9:28.

So Jesus didn't literally pre-exist then. I have a Scriptural reason to believe this as well. So the way I understand John 17:5 is the glory God shared with Jesus before the foundation of the world wasn't literal because Jesus' glory was his crucifixion. That clarifies what glory Jesus was referring to.

Hebrews 12
2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[Runningman]

I've offered several counterarguments to your mishandling of Acts 3:13 concerning Ex 3:14, 15.

Concerning the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Jesus does reveal the Father in himself. He who sees the Son also sees the Father. Jesus said so himself. Do you believe him?

(John 14:9) Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father?

Now the critical thing is that no one can see the Father, except Jesus. The Father can only be seen through Jesus. So it's actually the Preincarnate Christ that Moses saw because again nobody can see the Father except Christ.

(John 6:46) Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God, He has seen the Father.

Conclusion: It's the Pre-Incarnate Jesus that Moses saw in Ex 3.

Sorry, I mean this respectfully, but your argument is high tier nonsense and someone needs to point this out to you. Please take it constructively.

Acts 3:13 refers to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and His servant Jesus. That means Jesus isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus is called a servant, God isn't called a servant. God sent Jesus (John 17:3) and chose Jesus as His servant (Matthew 12:8.) I have no idea how you are not understanding this.

​

Acts 3​

13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.​

Therefore, in Exodus 3:14,15, where the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is mentioned it is not referring to Jesus unless you are trying to be funny and say that God is His own servant. That's not what Scripture states. For further reading, I would also point you to Acts 4:24-27 where John and Peter prayed to God, the Creator and Sovereign Lord, and referred to Jesus as His servant again. They didn't even pray to Jesus so the servant isn't God.

Therefore Jesus is not YHWH, the I AM, or the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. You aren't understanding John 8:58. The Scriptures contradict you.

 

[synergy]

Sorry, I mean this respectfully, but your argument is high tier nonsense and someone needs to point this out to you. Please take it constructively.

Acts 3:13 refers to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and His servant Jesus. That means Jesus isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus is called a servant, God isn't called a servant. God sent Jesus (John 17:3) and chose Jesus as His servant (Matthew 12:8.) I have no idea how you are not understanding this.

​

Acts 3​

13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.​

Therefore, in Exodus 3:14,15, where the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is mentioned it is not referring to Jesus unless you are trying to be funny and say that God is His own servant. That's not what Scripture states. For further reading, I would also point you to Acts 4:24-27 where John and Peter prayed to God, the Creator and Sovereign Lord, and referred to Jesus as His servant again. They didn't even pray to Jesus so the servant isn't God.

Therefore Jesus is not YHWH, the I AM, or the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. You aren't understanding John 8:58. The Scriptures contradict you.

Not once did you even mention or even hint at any acknowledgement of John 14:9 or John 6:46. Until you do, I will take it as your white flag.

In contrast to those who run away from Bible verses like you, I will deal with Acts 3:13. I do acknowledge Acts 3:13 but Ex 3 talks about a Divine Appearance. John 6:46 precludes the possibility that it's the Father appearing but John 14:9 allows the Father to be seen when one sees Jesus, the Preincarnate Jesus in this case. So stop being true to your name "Runningman" and start acknowledging the true Jesus who is God.

 

[DavidTree]

That's the stumbling block for all heretics, like Mormons and Judaizers, who claim that Divine appearances are the Father. Their claim flies in the face of what Jesus says.

@Runningman

JESUS SAYS:

John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

John 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

 

[TomL]

1. And its rider is called Faithful = "the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God" - Deuteronomy 7:9

2. and True = "But the LORD is the true God;" - Jeremiah 10:10, John 17:3

3. With righteousness He judges = 'But God is the judge:' - Psalm 75:7

4. and wages war. = "the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you." - Deuteronomy 20:4

5. He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. = This is the Father because the other descriptions about the Father are all the Father.

6. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. = Jesus doesn't know what only God knows. Matthew 24:36

7. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God. = "their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment." - Isaiah 63:3

8. The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. = "my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?" = Matthew 26:53

9. from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword = "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword," - Hebrews 4:12

10. He will rule them with an iron scepter. = "for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me." - Psalm 23:4

11. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. = "I have trodden the winepress alone; " - Isaiah 63:3

12. And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. = "who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;" - 1 Timothy 6:15

Sorry you are simply ignoring revelation



You assume that ignoring the fact Jesus was specifically stated to have a sword coming out of his mouth and have eyes of blazing fire

You are not doing exegesis you are simply spouting your theology ignoring the text and the obvious identification

Revelation 1:13–18 (KJV 1900) — 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 19:11–16 (KJV 1900) — 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 17:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

The Father is not the lamb, not the son of man, not the one who was dead and he never is given the appellation the word

The lamb is identified as the King of Kings and the lord of lords

 

[TomL]

We are in the Bible. We can use the entire book because it's all relevant. You have also just proven that Jesus isn't God again. God can't die, He is immortal. So that Rider isn't Jeuss.

Yeah but one should not ignore the immediate context.

You however did

Further you continue in the confusion imaginning trinitarians think Jesus is the father. We don't we believe in Christ's divinty -his Godhood

You do not get to reason away what scripture affirms

John 1:1 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 20:28–29 (NASB 2020) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you now believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

Titus 2:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

2 Peter 1:1 (NASB 2020) — 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

1 John 5:20 (NASB 2020) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

 

[TomL]

You have not dealt with the fact that it's the Father who is the ultimate judge even if He delegates some judgement authority to Jesus. The true judge is the Father, not Jesus in Scripture.

Acts 17
31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

I do not need to as all judgment has been committed to Christ and he has the sword coming out of his mouth

As I noted


Revelation 19:11–16 (KJV 1900) — 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

compare

Revelation 1:13–18 (KJV 1900) — 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


You consistently ignore the facts seen in revelation running everywhere else

 

[TomL]

If this was Jesus it would imply the Father has no idea what name was written on Jesus. Since the Father is omniscient and Jesus clearly isn't in Matthew 24:36 then the rider is the Father.

So live with it

Unfortunately for you however

Jesus the lamb is the only one specifically states to have a sword coming out of his mouth

Revelation 1:12–18 (NASB 2020) — 12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And after turning I saw seven golden lampstands; 13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and wrapped around the chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze when it has been heated to a glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

You are simply not willing to allow the text to speak for itself

​

Revelation 1​

12...He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows.​

​

Matthew 24​

36No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. ​

Jesus is never described as having a robe dipped in blood in Scripture. Jesus was stripped of his clothing during his crucifixion and he wasn't wearing a robe, he was wearing a tunic. However, the Father is described as having a robe with blood on it. Furthermore, Jesus is never described as treading a winepress, but the Father is described as doing it alone.

Except the scene here is the book of revelation not the old terstament
Except the scene here is not the crucifixion but of war

Revelation 17:14 (NASB 2020) — 14 These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

And it is lamb in war

and he is clothed in a robe

Revelation 1:12–13 (NASB 2020) — 12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And after turning I saw seven golden lampstands; 13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and wrapped around the chest with a golden sash.

yet additional points of confirmation

Isaiah 63​

3“I have trodden the winepress alone,​

And from the peoples no one was with Me.​

For I have trodden them in My anger,​

And trampled them in My fury;​

Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments,​

And I have stained all My robes.​

​

Revelation 19​

13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood...​

​

Revelation 19​

15...He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.​

​

There is not enough Biblical precedent to support your theory.

 

[Studyman]

Z

That's true. There are no Scriptures that say Jesus was slain twice. So what we have here in Revelation 13:8 is Jesus allegedly having pre-existed and being slain and then being slain another time in Israel as the gospels state. So numerically, that is two slayings in contradiction to Hebrews 9:28.

So Jesus didn't literally pre-exist then. I have a Scriptural reason to believe this as well. So the way I understand John 17:5 is the glory God shared with Jesus before the foundation of the world wasn't literal because Jesus' glory was his crucifixion. That clarifies what glory Jesus was referring to.

I don't believe the Scriptures support this understanding. Paul said'

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Clearly the Word of God existed "With God" before the World was. And this Same Word of God "became flesh" or laid down His immortal life, to dwell among men and provide atonement for the repentant. Before He became a man, HE was a Spirit, like His Father. He created all that is created, by instruction of His Father. And when the Time was right, according to His Father, He became a mortal human, brought us God's Word, and for this HE was murdered. But God rose Him from the dead, and He was the very First Mortal Human to receive Immortality, or as it is written, "The First Fruits of "many".

The falsehood being promoted by this world's religions, in my view, is not that the Lord's Christ didn't exist before becoming the man Jesus. The falsehood, in my understanding, is that the "Word of God" that was With God, didn't become "fully man" in the person of Jesus.

Hebrews 12
2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Truly HE is my Lord and Savior, sent by God to "Show me in the way that I should go".

John 6: 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Is. 48: 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. 18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

This is the Word of God that became a mortal man, in the person of Jesus.

 

[TomL]

Jesus' name isn't in John 1:1. I asked you where Jesus is called the Word in Scripture. If you don't have a verse just say so. I am ready for you to cede that point when you're comfortable.

It is John 1

You don't get to ignore the rest of John

The word does appear in John 1:1 and we know the word is God and became flesh and identified as Jesus Christ as was previously shown

Don't hold your breath for John chapter 1 refutes your absurd claim

Others also have the sword, which is the word of God. It refers to the words of God coming out of one's mouth. The Father has it and you should too.

Revelation! We are in the book of Revelation

Jesus is the only one with the sword coming out of his mouth

You do not get to ignore those facts

Ephesians 6
17And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Again you run from the text before us

They call that dodging and running away

Then you have proven the rider on the white horse isn't God because God can't die. See Revelation 1:4-8 where Jesus isn't "who is and was and is to come."

More nonsense Jesus the God man can die because he has a mortal human nature along with his divine one

For some reason you want to ignore certain facts

John 1:1 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:18 (NASB 2020) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him.

John 20:28–29 (NASB 2020) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you now believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

Acts 20:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Titus 2:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 1:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

2 Peter 1:1 (NASB 2020) — 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

1 John 5:20–21 (KJV 1900) — 20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

The war in Revelation 17:14-18 is distinct from the war in Revelation 19:17-21. For starters, John didn't describe the rider on the white horse as Jesus, but rather as the Father as was already previously proven. You mentioned he is the "Lord of lords and King of kings" but that word order doesn't match the word order of what was written on the Rider of the white horse, therefore they aren't the same things. Also, as was already shown, the only "King of kings and Lord of lords" isn't Jesus in 1 Timothy 6:16.

Therefore, the war in Revelation 19:17-21 features a different person.

Sorry no he did not decribe the rider as the Father. You are just ignoring facts

1 The rider as just has the sword in his mouth

2 the rider as Jesus has eyes of fire

3 Both are clothed in a robe

4 the father is never callec the word Jesus is

You are blatantly denying Scripture. The Rider on the white horse doesn't have "Lord of lords and King of kings" written on him. You don't have an argument to support a different conclusion.

Another false claim

The lamb is lord of lords and king of king

Revelation 17:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. 15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Only someone completely desperate would argue based on whether lord or king comes first in a sentence

Its the same thing and your objection is absurd

 

[DavidTree]

Christ loves you @Runningman and so do we who are sharing our testimony of faith in the Word of God which Abides FOREVER.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Ditto

The peace offering has come and come it has and has been given unto the realm of christendom .
But beware this trogan horse of peace , love , tolerance and unity .
For from within it , as men have slept , out came the wolves and have taken captive by cunning spun words
entire houses and churches with a love and a unity that was never once OF GOD but rather
of an enemy who played as though he were the friend of GOD
and now his men , from within have taken captive a peoples to serve , NOT GOD , but the dragon
and all shall yield glory and honor unto the beast unto whom this lie prepared the minds and the hearts
of said people to worship as one . A strong delusion has come and it has come in under the name of love
and the claim it is of GOD . beware it , for it grows daily and its end will be perdition .

 

[DavidTree]

That's true. There are no Scriptures that say Jesus was slain twice. So what we have here in Revelation 13:8 is Jesus allegedly having pre-existed and being slain and then being slain another time in Israel as the gospels state. So numerically, that is two slayings in contradiction to Hebrews 9:28.

So Jesus didn't literally pre-exist then. I have a Scriptural reason to believe this as well. So the way I understand John 17:5 is the glory God shared with Jesus before the foundation of the world wasn't literal because Jesus' glory was his crucifixion. That clarifies what glory Jesus was referring to.

Hebrews 12
2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

So Jesus didn't literally pre-exist then. I have a Scriptural reason to believe this as well. So the way I understand John 17:5 is the glory God shared with Jesus before the foundation of the world wasn't literal because Jesus' glory was his crucifixion. That clarifies what glory Jesus was referring to.

Dear Friend - you are calling the LORD Jesus Christ a 'liar' or at BEST that you are wiser, and more righteous then HIM who NEVER sinned.

This is the SIN of the 'judaisers'(not you) on here who FALSELY claim the old covenant is NEEDED for our Righteousness.

Remember - i am responding to you in TRUTH so that you can AVOID deception of religion

 

[DavidTree]

Z


I don't believe the Scriptures support this understanding. Paul said'

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Clearly the Word of God existed "With God" before the World was. And this Same Word of God "became flesh" or laid down His immortal life, to dwell among men and provide atonement for the repentant. Before He became a man, HE was a Spirit, like His Father. He created all that is created, by instruction of His Father. And when the Time was right, according to His Father, He became a mortal human, brought us God's Word, and for this HE was murdered. But God rose Him from the dead, and He was the very First Mortal Human to receive Immortality, or as it is written, "The First Fruits of "many".

The falsehood being promoted by this world's religions, in my view, is not that the Lord's Christ didn't exist before becoming the man Jesus. The falsehood, in my understanding, is that the "Word of God" that was With God, didn't become "fully man" in the person of Jesus.



Truly HE is my Lord and Savior, sent by God to "Show me in the way that I should go".

John 6: 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Is. 48: 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. 18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

This is the Word of God that became a mortal man, in the person of Jesus.

HalleluYAH Brother - Good word

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Christ loves you @Runningman and so do we who are sharing our testimony of faith in the Word of God which Abides FOREVER.

The kingdom of darkness can be likened unto a man who came from within with peace offerings
unto a sleeping people . And made claim HE was light and love and was of GOD
But he was of darkness and the church marveled greatly as though he was light and that the darkness he sold them was light
and that the love he sold them was the LOVE of GOD . But he was and is and always has been
a very wise and cunning serpent indeed who has come to TWIST and to omit the WORD of GOD
Beware my friend , for his peoples are many and though an outward appearance of wool they do wear
they be but wolves in wool sent to seduce and to decieve this people . Stay dug in the bible .
And always remember That any LOVE that cometh of GOD
would have REJOICED IN TRUTH , not inquity , not lies . IN TRUTH .
And always remember this well , that not some , not most , BUT EVERY WORD OF GOD IS TRUTH .
thus is a version of love is omitting truth , IT aint coming from GOD but rather from darkness .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Christ loves you @Runningman and so do we who are sharing our testimony of faith in the Word of God which Abides FOREVER.

By means of another love and of another word , another gospel , an idea of darkness has entered into
and now entertains many even within christendom .
Marvel not that this can occur .
Were we not warned of a falling away and of a time when they would not endure sound doctrine .
Were we not warned of a delusoin that all who rejected the love of the truth would buy and believe a lie .
Many have now put their faith into the Words of men who have come from within to at most
use the bible to SUPPORT a lie , a lie that cannot and will not save
but a lie that rather has come to grind men to powder on the DAY OF THE LORD .
A love has been sung by a well feathered bird
and tis song can be heard in many a church as well as in the world and the false religons .
That song says , Come ye one and come ye all , we all serve the same GOD
it matters not what ye believe , it matters not , you hold your rainbow high or you dollar high
your koran or your budda statue , for we all serve the same GOD .
And many have loved to have this so .
THE song of the well feathered bird makes many a heart sing with joy .
but to the lamb o GOD the song of the well feathered bird
Smells like a well rottted TURD . enjoy the rhyme my friend . cause that song STINKS to these nostrils .
THE ONLY thing that has a great smell and great taste to the lambs , IS EVERY WORD OF THE LORD . THE TRUTH .
that is as honey to the taste of a lamb
and the cup of a HARLOT they will not sip from .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

His Pre existence

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.



All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.


John 1:14

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory


These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning

John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"


John 1:30
This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'


John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.


Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.

John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.


This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.


John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.


Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.


John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."


Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.


Jhn 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Fath


John 17:1,5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.


Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God. Below again we see His pre existence and in 17:25 Jesus again states the Father sent the Son into

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.

Below we read it was the Son who already existed as the Son which the Father sent into the world.

John 3:16-17
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

1 Cor 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

Gal 4:4
But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,


1 John 4:14
And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

In 1 John 3:8 we see that the Son of Gods appearance or manifestation was for this very purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. The verb φανερόω means to make manifest, appeared, to make visible or to bring to light something that was previously hidden. This clearly means that Jesus had already existed as the Son of God and He was made manifest or visible to us.

Now we also know from Johns writings that those who deny Jesus came in the flesh are the spirit of antichrist. Those who deny God became flesh and dwelt among us are deceivers. The Incarnation was permanent as we read in 2 John 7- Jesus has come in the flesh. A past action with present results.


Col 1:13-18
For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Heb 1:2-3
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

Heb 1:8
But of the Son He says,

"Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever,

Heb 5:7-8
In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.


The question is who or what was He before the days of His flesh? It is obvious that He pre existed before His birth(days of His flesh) as the Divine Son who is the 2nd person of the Trinity.

Hope this helps !!!

SOUND IT OUT my friend . SOUND it out . TO THE LORD be all GLORY with all praise and all thanksgivings .