Praying to Jesus

[civic]

Sorry no it does not

You assume that ignoring the fact Jesus was specifically stated to have a sword coming out of his mouth and have eyes of blazing fire

You are not doing exegesis you are simply spouting your theology ignoring the text and the obvious identification

Revelation 1:13–18 (KJV 1900) — 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 19:11–16 (KJV 1900) — 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 17:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

ditto

 

[TomL]

ditto

I believe this is a clear case and those who would deny Christ are clearly refuted

 

[TomL]

Excellent work!

What's the one common error that all Judaizers (JWs, Unitarians, Messianic Jews, etc...) make when they claim that all those Divine Apperances are those of the Father? It's the fact that no one can see the Father, except Jesus. The Father can only be seen through Jesus.

(John 6:46) Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God, He has seen the Father.

Thank you

All praise and glory to my Lord - Jesus Christ

 

[DavidTree]

It says Jesus is made in human likeness. Hey, so am I. What is your point?

Good Morning,
i am not here to bash you this morning but to share His Love for you = Hebrews 10:1-7 , John 1:14 , John 17:1-5
Only to share these verses with that proves beyond any doubt the Eternal WORD, Who came from the Bosom of the FATHER

Hebrews 10:1-7
For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would not the offerings have ceased? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt the guilt of their sins.

Instead, those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
but a body You prepared for Me.
In burnt offerings and sin offerings
You took no delight.
Then I said, ‘Here I am, it is written about Me in the scroll:
I have come to do Your will, O God.’ ”
a body You prepared for Me

a physical flesh body was prepared in Mary's womb for the WORD to become Flesh
John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory,
the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.


Pre-Existent Eternal WORD Declared by the WORD = John 17:1-5
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
I have glorified You on the earth.
I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
And now, O Father, Glorify Me together with Yourself,
with the Glory which I had with You before the world was.

SHALOM only in JESUS CHRIST

 

[Runningman]

a judaizer is one who attempts to deceive you by returning to the old covenant which the LORD nailed to the Cross on His Body

The old covenant was written on stone tablets which cannot be nailed to a cross.

It remains only for the Jews who refuse to come to their Savior for Redemption of their sins and or remain in Him.
Since they refuse to come to their MESSIAH, they will be judged by the law of Moses which will result in DEATH.

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
Galatians 5:1-6

That doesn't describe me. I am a New Covenant Christian. It was ratified by the blood of Jesus in which he purchased for God using his blood those from every nation.

Thank you for proving I am not a Judaizer and giving me the floor to explain what I believe rather than just hurling false accusations around in every comment like someone else does.

​

Luke 22​

20In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you.​

​

Revelation 5​

9And they sang a new song: “Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.​

 

[Runningman]

No rebuttal I see. Your request to end the debate is understandable now that you realized how much your Judaizing theories are continuously being slammed by the Bible at every turn you take.

So let's stick to the issues since you seem to be coming back around. Jesus is never called the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Facts. What do you say about that?

 

[Runningman]

The point is he pre-existed being made in human likeness

A common refrain from you guys is that he was an impersonal thing. Phil 2:6 however shows how baseless and unbiblical that claim is.

That is the point

There is no suggestion of a pre-existence in saying someone is made in human likeness. Are you saying Jesus isn't a human but is rather similar to a human?

 

[DavidTree]

The old covenant was written on stone tablets which cannot be nailed to a cross.

That doesn't describe me. I am a New Covenant Christian. It was ratified by the blood of Jesus in which he purchased for God using his blood those from every nation.

Thank you for proving I am not a Judaizer and giving me the floor to explain what I believe rather than just hurling false accusations around in every comment like someone else does.

​

Luke 22​

20In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you.​

​

Revelation 5​

9And they sang a new song: “Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.​

I am a New Covenant Christian. It was ratified by the blood of Jesus in which he purchased for God using his blood those from every nation.

AWESOME = If you have been Born-Again by the Spirit thru the Washing of the Blood of Christ = we are FAMILY

Thank you for proving I am not a Judaizer and giving me the floor to explain what I believe rather than just hurling false accusations around in every comment like someone else does.

This is DOUBLE AWESOME that you understood my post was NOT against you at all.
There are some on this forum who are 'judaizers' as they proclaim we need the old covenant and MESSIAH
That is REAL BAD = REAL BAD

The old covenant was written on stone tablets which cannot be nailed to a cross.

GOOD NEWS for you @Runningman,


In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body [h]of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements(the old covenant) that was against us, which was contrary to us.
And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

the tablets of stone are the Eternal 10 Commandments which ALL Reside in CHRIST

the old covenant was written down on papyrus schrolls and was BINDING until the NEW Covenant Walked this earth

SHALOM

 

[Runningman]

You mean other than John 1:1

Jesus' name isn't in John 1:1. I asked you where Jesus is called the Word in Scripture. If you don't have a verse just say so. I am ready for you to cede that point when you're comfortable.

You ignored the fact that one stated to have a sword coming out of his mouth is Jesus

The Father is never stated to have a sword coming out of his mouth

Hello

Others also have the sword, which is the word of God. It refers to the words of God coming out of one's mouth. The Father has it and you should too.

Ephesians 6
17And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Um
Revelation 1:12–18 (NASB 2020) — 12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And after turning I saw seven golden lampstands; 13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and wrapped around the chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze when it has been heated to a glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

It is one like a Son of man who died - Jesus

Then you have proven the rider on the white horse isn't God because God can't die. See Revelation 1:4-8 where Jesus isn't "who is and was and is to come."

Totally false

Revelation 17:14 (NASB 2020) — 14 These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

You have ignored fact after fact

And you have ignored the context of Revelation and ran to the Old testament

The war in Revelation 17:14-18 is distinct from the war in Revelation 19:17-21. For starters, John didn't describe the rider on the white horse as Jesus, but rather as the Father as was already previously proven. You mentioned he is the "Lord of lords and King of kings" but that word order doesn't match the word order of what was written on the Rider of the white horse, therefore they aren't the same things. Also, as was already shown, the only "King of kings and Lord of lords" isn't Jesus in 1 Timothy 6:16.

Therefore, the war in Revelation 19:17-21 features a different person.

Sorry you are simply denying scripture based on your reasoning and bias

Revelation 17:14 (NASB 2020) — 14 These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

You have argued the making of war, being faithful, being the king of kings , the lord of lords indicates it is not Jesus contrary to the text of revelation which refutes your claims

You are blatantly denying Scripture. The Rider on the white horse doesn't have "Lord of lords and King of kings" written on him. You don't have an argument to support a different conclusion.

Nonsense

Revelation 19:11–16 (NASB 2020) — 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Jesus is identified as the one with the sword coming out of his mouth as shown above

We still have Revelation 19:11-16 which describes the Father.

Revelation 17:14 (NASB 2020) — 14 These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

and your claim that word order means it is not Jesus is absurd

You are in serious denial and have simply ignored the context of revelation

You have produced a bad argument and are conflating different contexts that doesn't describe the Rider on the white horse. Jesus wouldn't have a named written on him that only he knows because he isn't omniscient according to Scripture. I have already shown you Matthew 24:36 where Jesus doesn't know what the Father knows. Done. The Rider isn't Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

Unfortunately for you however

Jesus the lamb is the only one specifically states to have a sword coming out of his mouth

Revelation 1:12–18 (NASB 2020) — 12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And after turning I saw seven golden lampstands; 13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and wrapped around the chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze when it has been heated to a glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

You are simply not willing to allow the text to speak for itself

If this was Jesus it would imply the Father has no idea what name was written on Jesus. Since the Father is omniscient and Jesus clearly isn't in Matthew 24:36 then the rider is the Father.

​

Revelation 1​

12...He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows.​

​

Matthew 24​

36No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. ​

Jesus is never described as having a robe dipped in blood in Scripture. Jesus was stripped of his clothing during his crucifixion and he wasn't wearing a robe, he was wearing a tunic. However, the Father is described as having a robe with blood on it. Furthermore, Jesus is never described as treading a winepress, but the Father is described as doing it alone.

Isaiah 63​

3“I have trodden the winepress alone,​

And from the peoples no one was with Me.​

For I have trodden them in My anger,​

And trampled them in My fury;​

Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments,​

And I have stained all My robes.​

​

Revelation 19​

13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood...​

​

Revelation 19​

15...He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.​

​

There is not enough Biblical precedent to support your theory.

 

[Runningman]

Sorry but that is simply gratuitous

In Revelation

It is the rider on the white horse who has a Sword coming out of his mouth (Jesus) who judges and makes war

Revelation 19:11–16 (KJV 1900) — 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

compare

Revelation 1:13–18 (KJV 1900) — 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.



Hello

You consistently ignore the facts seen in revelation running everywhere else

You have not dealt with the fact that it's the Father who is the ultimate judge even if He delegates some judgement authority to Jesus. The true judge is the Father, not Jesus in Scripture.

Acts 17
31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

 

[Runningman]

We are in revelation

You keep running from that fact

Revelation 1:13–18 (KJV 1900) — 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


as you have consistently done

It is not the text which is driving your arguments but your theology

We are in the Bible. We can use the entire book because it's all relevant. You have also just proven that Jesus isn't God again. God can't die, He is immortal. So that Rider isn't Jeuss.

 

[Runningman]

Sorry no it does not

You assume that ignoring the fact Jesus was specifically stated to have a sword coming out of his mouth and have eyes of blazing fire

You are not doing exegesis you are simply spouting your theology ignoring the text and the obvious identification

Revelation 1:13–18 (KJV 1900) — 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 19:11–16 (KJV 1900) — 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 17:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

1. And its rider is called Faithful = "the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God" - Deuteronomy 7:9

2. and True = "But the LORD is the true God;" - Jeremiah 10:10, John 17:3

3. With righteousness He judges = 'But God is the judge:' - Psalm 75:7

4. and wages war. = "the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you." - Deuteronomy 20:4

5. He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. = This is the Father because the other descriptions about the Father are all the Father.

6. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. = Jesus doesn't know what only God knows. Matthew 24:36

7. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God. = "their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment." - Isaiah 63:3

8. The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. = "my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?" = Matthew 26:53

9. from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword = "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword," - Hebrews 4:12

10. He will rule them with an iron scepter. = "for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me." - Psalm 23:4

11. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. = "I have trodden the winepress alone; " - Isaiah 63:3

12. And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. = "who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;" - 1 Timothy 6:15

 

[Runningman]

Hello again, @Runningman

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Jesus Christ is the Living Word.​

Hi @Selah as you can see, John 1:1 does not contain Jesus' name.

. . . . .

It is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ that we read about in the book of Revelation. …And this Day happens at the 7th trumpet.

Peter lets us know who it is that comes at the last trump (7th). It is the One we have been waiting for! He is the King of kings and Lord of lords:​

Sorry, but as you can also see, Jesus is never called "King of kings and Lord of lords" in Scripture. I feel like your intentions are good so I hope you can see that. I am sure you already know the verses and will agree.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into. Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy." And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

- 1 Peter 1:3-20

God bless you.
s.

I agree 100% with Scripture. It's when people add their commentary to it is when the debates occur. Nothing to add to Peter's words. Jesus is indeed not God as Peter just pointed out. Do you want to have a different eschatology thread (if there is not one already?)

 

[Runningman]

Good Morning,
i am not here to bash you this morning but to share His Love for you = Hebrews 10:1-7 , John 1:14 , John 17:1-5
Only to share these verses with that proves beyond any doubt the Eternal WORD, Who came from the Bosom of the FATHER

Hebrews 10:1-7
For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would not the offerings have ceased? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt the guilt of their sins.

Instead, those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
but a body You prepared for Me.
In burnt offerings and sin offerings
You took no delight.
Then I said, ‘Here I am, it is written about Me in the scroll:
I have come to do Your will, O God.’ ”
a body You prepared for Me

a physical flesh body was prepared in Mary's womb for the WORD to become Flesh
John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory,
the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.


Pre-Existent Eternal WORD Declared by the WORD = John 17:1-5
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
I have glorified You on the earth.
I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
And now, O Father, Glorify Me together with Yourself,
with the Glory which I had with You before the world was.

SHALOM only in JESUS CHRIST

Good morning and thank you for not coming here to bash me this morning. Also, thanks for sharing Scripture. I believe you have missed the mark and that's okay. We can make mistakes and grow in the Scriptures together. I would like to keep my post short to give you something think about. Please feel free to answer at your convenience.

Was Jesus literally slain from the creation of the world and then another time in Israel?

Revelation 13​

8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. ​

 

[DavidTree]

Good morning and thank you for not coming here to bash me this morning. Also, thanks for sharing Scripture. I believe you have missed the mark and that's okay. We can make mistakes and grow in the Scriptures together. I would like to keep my post short to give you something think about. Please feel free to answer at your convenience.

Was Jesus literally slain from the creation of the world and then another time in Israel?

Revelation 13​

8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. ​

Like yourself, the short posts with a scripture or two works best for me.

There is no scripture that declares 'the LAMB' was slain twice.

As a matter of FACT, the scripture DECLARES that JESUS suffered ONCE our sins, NEVER to suffer again.

Hebrews 9:28
Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are [k]copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.
To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

So then why does God tell us this: "the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world"

HERE is why = Isaiah 46:10

"Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,"

SHALOM

 

[Studyman]

This world's religious philosophy that the Word of God didn't come to earth as a mortal human, but "fully" God, is a popular, but insidious lie, if the Holy Scriptures are our guide "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". "Many" preachers, of all manner of religious sects and businesses "who come in Christ's Name", preach to the world that Jesus, "a man of sorrows", overcame sin and Temptations, not by Faith and humble obedience to His Father as the holy Scriptures teach, like HE instructs others "to do", but that HE overcame Sin and Temptations "BECAUSE" HE came to earth as "Fully God". So when the going got tough for Him, like it does for all men of Faith, HE just kicked in some supernatural God Powers no other human has ever had access to, and overcame sin and temptation in that way.

In this religious philosophy, promoted by "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, Jesus didn't "lay down His Life" for anyone. He didn't Risk anything for others. He never feared, He couldn't be tempted, and He never died, "because" HE was "Fully God", not "fully man". So His Faith was never tried, because HE didn't need faith, and yet God gave Him a name above all other humans ever born of a woman.

This would be likened unto a coach of a sports team whose son was also on the team. And the coach withheld performance enhancement drugs to everyone on the team, but to his son, he gave him all he could take. And then, when his son outperformed all the other players, the coach gave the son the trophy and all the rewards and praise. The God and Father of the Lord's Christ didn't behave in this manner at all, at least according to Scriptures.

The foundation of this false teaching is the result of believing another insidious falsehood about God, taught by Many on this same forum, and that is that when men in the Holy scriptures actually believed the God of the Bible, and humbled themselves to trust Him and His Word, HE placed on their necks a "Yoke of Bondage", "Beggarly Elements" and "Rudiments of this world", AKA, Laws impossible to keep. And then slaughtered thousands of His own people for breaking these same impossible to keep Laws HE said was for their own wellbeing. Making God out to be a liar, just as the serpent convinced Eve.

So His Son, that they worship, with long flowing hair and handsome profile, had to come and save mankind, not from Sin (Transgression of God's Laws), because they preach it's impossible not to steal, not to lie, not to cheat others, etc, but from His Father's impossible Laws, or at least the ones that cannot be used as a marketing strategy to grow their religious business and non-profit organizations.

And like the religious sect of the Pharisees before them, they omit and twist Scriptures and promote commandments and traditions of men, to promote their own religion.

In this philosophy and idolatry, they demean the Great Sacrifice the Word of God who became Flesh and dwelled among men made for me. They belittle Him as a scam artist who pretended to die, pretended to be tempted, pretended to be a mortal human but HE wasn't a mortal human, rather, "Fully God".

And they relegate God the Father of the Lord's Christ as a tyrant, and a cheat and a liar, whose Words cannot be trusted.

So when Paul said "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

This world's self-proclaimed "ministers of righteousness" interpret this to others as:


14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (OF GOD) that was against us, which was contrary to us, (Not the prophesied corrupt priesthood that ruled Jerusalem) and took it out of the way, nailing it (God's Laws) to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, (God and the Prophets HE sent to us, not those chief priests who "Professed to know God, but in works denied Him") he made a shew of them (GOD, and the Prophets, not those religious zealots teaching for doctrines the commandments of men) openly, triumphing over them (GOD) in it. (Not the hypocrites in the Synagogues seeking the praise of men, and not God)

I advocate that men "come out of" this world's corrupt religions, as they have rejected God's Judgments, and created their own. They have created an image of God in the likeness of a long-haired men's hair shampoo model and have created their own high days in worship of their idol, while rejecting the Feasts of the Lord and HIS Instruction in Righteousness.

I know there are some who are called out of these religions, just as Abraham, Caleb, Shadrack, and every example of Faith in the Holy scriptures were called out. I want these folks to know they are not alone and not to fear the ridicule they will endure as a result of Trusting the Words of the Christ "of the Bible" and the Words that proceeded out of the mouth of HIS Father who sent Him.

 

[DavidTree]

This world's religious philosophy that the Word of God didn't come to earth as a mortal human, but "fully" God, is a popular, but insidious lie, if the Holy Scriptures are our guide "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". "Many" preachers, of all manner of religious sects and businesses "who come in Christ's Name", preach to the world that Jesus, "a man of sorrows", overcame sin and Temptations, not by Faith and humble obedience to His Father as the holy Scriptures teach, like HE instructs others "to do", but that HE overcame Sin and Temptations "BECAUSE" HE came to earth as "Fully God". So when the going got tough for Him, like it does for all men of Faith, HE just kicked in some supernatural God Powers no other human has ever had access to, and overcame sin and temptation in that way.

In this religious philosophy, promoted by "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, Jesus didn't "lay down His Life" for anyone. He didn't Risk anything for others. He never feared, He couldn't be tempted, and He never died, "because" HE was "Fully God", not "fully man". So His Faith was never tried, because HE didn't need faith, and yet God gave Him a name above all other humans ever born of a woman.

This would be likened unto a coach of a sports team whose son was also on the team. And the coach withheld performance enhancement drugs to everyone on the team, but to his son, he gave him all he could take. And then, when his son outperformed all the other players, the coach gave the son the trophy and all the rewards and praise. The God and Father of the Lord's Christ didn't behave in this manner at all, at least according to Scriptures.

The foundation of this false teaching is the result of believing another insidious falsehood about God, taught by Many on this same forum, and that is that when men in the Holy scriptures actually believed the God of the Bible, and humbled themselves to trust Him and His Word, HE placed on their necks a "Yoke of Bondage", "Beggarly Elements" and "Rudiments of this world", AKA, Laws impossible to keep. And then slaughtered thousands of His own people for breaking these same impossible to keep Laws HE said was for their own wellbeing. Making God out to be a liar, just as the serpent convinced Eve.

So His Son, that they worship, with long flowing hair and handsome profile, had to come and save mankind, not from Sin (Transgression of God's Laws), because they preach it's impossible not to steal, not to lie, not to cheat others, etc, but from His Father's impossible Laws, or at least the ones that cannot be used as a marketing strategy to grow their religious business and non-profit organizations.

And like the religious sect of the Pharisees before them, they omit and twist Scriptures and promote commandments and traditions of men, to promote their own religion.

In this philosophy and idolatry, they demean the Great Sacrifice the Word of God who became Flesh and dwelled among men made for me. They belittle Him as a scam artist who pretended to die, pretended to be tempted, pretended to be a mortal human but HE wasn't a mortal human, rather, "Fully God".

And they relegate God the Father of the Lord's Christ as a tyrant, and a cheat and a liar, whose Words cannot be trusted.

So when Paul said "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

This world's self-proclaimed "ministers of righteousness" interpret this to others as:


14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (OF GOD) that was against us, which was contrary to us, (Not the prophesied corrupt priesthood that ruled Jerusalem) and took it out of the way, nailing it (God's Laws) to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, (God and the Prophets HE sent to us, not those chief priests who "Professed to know God, but in works denied Him") he made a shew of them (GOD, and the Prophets, not those religious zealots teaching for doctrines the commandments of men) openly, triumphing over them (GOD) in it. (Not the hypocrites in the Synagogues seeking the praise of men, and not God)

I advocate that men "come out of" this world's corrupt religions, as they have rejected God's Judgments, and created their own. They have created an image of God in the likeness of a long-haired men's hair shampoo model and have created their own high days in worship of their idol, while rejecting the Feasts of the Lord and HIS Instruction in Righteousness.

I know there are some who are called out of these religions, just as Abraham, Caleb, Shadrack, and every example of Faith in the Holy scriptures were called out. I want these folks to know they are not alone and not to fear the ridicule they will endure as a result of Trusting the Words of the Christ "of the Bible" and the Words that proceeded out of the mouth of HIS Father who sent Him.

Can you share your thesis in a condensed conclusion - Thank You

 

[synergy]

So let's stick to the issues since you seem to be coming back around. Jesus is never called the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Facts. What do you say about that?

I've offered several counterarguments to your mishandling of Acts 3:13 concerning Ex 3:14, 15.

Concerning the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Jesus does reveal the Father in himself. He who sees the Son also sees the Father. Jesus said so himself. Do you believe him?

(John 14:9) Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father?

Now the critical thing is that no one can see the Father, except Jesus. The Father can only be seen through Jesus. So it's actually the Preincarnate Christ that Moses saw because again nobody can see the Father except Christ.

(John 6:46) Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God, He has seen the Father.

Conclusion: It's the Pre-Incarnate Jesus that Moses saw in Ex 3.

 

[DavidTree]

I've offered several counterarguments to your mishandling of Acts 3:13 concerning Ex 3:14, 15.

Concerning the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Jesus does reveal the Father in himself. He who sees the Son also sees the Father. Jesus said so himself. Do you believe him?

(John 14:9) Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father?

Now the critical thing is that no one can see the Father, except Jesus. The Father can only be seen through Jesus. So it's actually the Preincarnate Christ that Moses saw because again nobody can see the Father except Christ.

(John 6:46) Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God, He has seen the Father.

Conclusion: It's the Pre-Incarnate Jesus that Moses saw in Ex 3.

Conclusion: It's the Pre-Incarnate Jesus that Moses saw in Ex 3.

ABSOLUTELY TRUE
and
JESUS said so