Pauls use of Predestination

[praise_yeshua]

No one said anything about requiring.

You said God determined all that happened. Including the evil things that happened.

This creates a requirement. Explain how it does not.

Why bring up Tiberius then?

He did not take part in the event. LOL

Did you forget? You asked me what happened that God "left to chance"?

Are you so divorced from reality that you don't understand that your claims require what does and doesn't happen?

 

[TedT]

Romans 5:12 (UASV) — 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned,

Well...even using a surrogate like Adam to create sinners is still the gnostic idea that GOD is the creator of evil, that sinfulness is not caused only by the free will decision of the person.

I suggest that:
through one man sin entered into the world, though the fallen serpent entered the garden with evil intent and though Eve sinned by both following the demon serpent and by eating but Adam was the first sinner...how creative must we be to make this work? I suggest that he existed as a self chosen sinner at the time GOD breathed him into his body in the garden and as the first to be sown, not created, (Matt 13:36-39) into the garden he brought sin with him.

death through sin - no one dies except sinners, ie, death proves sinfulness even in the womb.

so death spread to all men because all (men) sinned - NOT because Adam sinned!! It just does not say that! It says all people have sinned and come under the death Adam bought with him. Only sinners are born into Adam's death.

Why would we die in Adam for the sins we choose? So Christ would only have to die once for all the sinful people of His kingdom, all His sheep gone astray.

 

[TedT]

No one said He needs it. It does serve His purposes though as does everything else in his creation.

What is HIS purpose for life on earth? In my Christian opinion it is to separate HIS sinful elect, HIS sinful sheep gone astray into evil, the sinful people of HIS kingdom from the reprobate demons who have been condemned already for having never believed in HIS name, John 3:28, so their judgement may finally be fulfilled...

Why was Satan's judgement postponed?
Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference to the explanation of this parable, ie, no more metaphor, in verses 36-39]
So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’[to bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because..] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. IF the reason for the postponement of the judgement is to save the sinful good seed from being pulled up and burnt with the reprobate weeds, then this assumes that at the time of the Satanic fall and the necessity of their judgment, the fall of the sinful good seed MUST have also already occurred!!!

 

[TedT]

So some things are beyond His control or He just simply chooses not to?

IF GOD refused to allow any of HIS creation to sin by rejecting HIM as their GOD and husband, then they could only love HIM by HIS will, not their own, even if they wanted to hate HIM instead.

This is a terrible platform to build a loving marriage upon, absolutely impossible, so HE chose NOT to disallow their evil desires but to separate those who accepted HIM from those who who hated HIM by the banishment of the haters to the outer darkness as an absolute necessity for HIS marriage to HIS creation to be a true, loving marriage by our will in perfect accord with HIS, not just by HIS will against our will.

 

[Presby02]

You said God determined all that happened. Including the evil things that happened.

This creates a requirement. Explain how it does not.



Did you forget? You asked me what happened that God "left to chance"?

Are you so divorced from reality that you don't understand that your claims require what does and doesn't happen?

No it doesn't create a requirement

If God did not plan and determine all that occurred in the crucifixion then logically some is left to chance. What that is or would be you refuse to tell us.

 

[Presby02]

No it wasn't. That is your false claim and you certainly haven't established such. You can't.

Isn't is interesting that you claim that Luke didn't have to include an exhaustive list but you are claiming that everything that happened was determined by God.

Double minded much?

So no sin was involved in the crucifixion?

Yup, He works all things out after the council of His will. Paul fails to mention yours

 

[civic]

You said God determined all that happened. Including the evil things that happened.

This creates a requirement. Explain how it does not.



Did you forget? You asked me what happened that God "left to chance"?

Are you so divorced from reality that you don't understand that your claims require what does and doesn't happen?

The failure of determinism on display , good job.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No it doesn't create a requirement

Geesh....

requirement = a thing that is compulsory; a necessary condition.

If God did not plan and determine all that occurred in the crucifixion then logically some is left to chance. What that is or would be you refuse to tell us.

As previous stated, God overcame the plans of evil men. This does not present a requirement that evil men do exactly as God "supposedly planned".

Not matter what evil man planned, God is too powerful for weak evil men to handle. You're jumping all over the place in this.

 

[praise_yeshua]

So no sin was involved in the crucifixion?

I've been saying that you teach a requirement for Christ to serve sin for how long now?

Yup, He works all things out after the council of His will. Paul fails to mention yours

So you're back to claiming evidence from silence? Can you at least try to be consistent?

 

[TomL]

Well...even using a surrogate like Adam to create sinners is still the gnostic idea that GOD is the creator of evil, that sinfulness is not caused only by the free will decision of the person.

Not even close. Man brought sin into the world. That is scripture not gnosticism

I suggest that:
through one man sin entered into the world, though the fallen serpent entered the garden with evil intent and though Eve sinned by both following the demon serpent and by eating but Adam was the first sinner...how creative must we be to make this work? I suggest that he existed as a self chosen sinner at the time GOD breathed him into his body in the garden and as the first to be sown, not created, (Matt 13:36-39) into the garden he brought sin with him.

death through sin - no one dies except sinners, ie, death proves sinfulness even in the womb.

so death spread to all men because all (men) sinned - NOT because Adam sinned!! It just does not say that! It says all people have sinned and come under the death Adam bought with him. Only sinners are born into Adam's death.

And what makes you think I suggested otherwise

I did not

 

[praise_yeshua]

The failure of determinism on display , good job.

You would think he might understand "being crucified through weakness".... "yet living by the POWER of God"....

2Co 13:4 For he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God.

 

[Presby02]

I've been saying that you teach a requirement for Christ to serve sin for how long now?



So you're back to claiming evidence from silence? Can you at least try to be consistent?

I never said the word requirement except quoting you. False

This from the guy claiming Tiberius was part of the plan? That's rich.

 

[Presby02]

Geesh....

requirement = a thing that is compulsory; a necessary condition.



As previous stated, God overcame the plans of evil men. This does not present a requirement that evil men do exactly as God "supposedly planned".

Not matter what evil man planned, God is too powerful for weak evil men to handle. You're jumping all over the place in this.

Still does not entail requirement. You simply assume.

It's says God planned, determined, brought about by His hand. Nothing about man's plans. We're in Acts 4 remember?

 

[Presby02]

You would think he might understand "being crucified through weakness".... "yet living by the POWER of God"....

2Co 13:4 For he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God.

Irrelevant to Acts 4. Your all over the place. LOL

 

[praise_yeshua]

I never said the word requirement except quoting you. False

This from the guy claiming Tiberius was part of the plan? That's rich.

I never said Tiberius was part of God's plan. I simply made the point that there is context to words spoken. You are injecting "all" in what is written in Acts 4. I made the point that Tiberius wasn't there even though the "kings of the earth stood together". Your claims are false no matter how you try to establish them.

Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood together, and the rulers assembled together, against the Lord and against his Christ.’
Act 4:27 “For indeed both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together in this city against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed,
Act 4:28 to do as much as your power and your plan had decided beforehand would happen.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Irrelevant to Acts 4. Your all over the place. LOL

Words concerning the Crucifixion are not relative to Acts 4?

Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood together, and the rulers assembled together, against the Lord and against his Christ.’
Act 4:27 “For indeed both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together in this city against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed,
Act 4:28 to do as much as your power and your plan had decided beforehand would happen.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Still does not entail requirement. You simply assume.

It's says God planned, determined, brought about by His hand. Nothing about man's plans. We're in Acts 4 remember?

Man's plans and God's plans are mentioned in Acts 4. They are not one in the same. Men planned evil. God didn't.

Men's plan.....
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood together

God's plan
Act 4:28 to do as much as your power and your plan had decided beforehand would happen.

Both are mentioned.

I mean seriously, the "kings" didn't plan the Resurrection. Get it???? No. I don't think you do. You prefer blindness.

 

[Presby02]

Man's plans and God's plans are mentioned in Acts 4. They are not one in the same. Men planned evil. God didn't.

Men's plan.....
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood together

God's plan
Act 4:28 to do as much as your power and your plan had decided beforehand would happen.

Both are mentioned.

I mean seriously, the "kings" didn't plan the Resurrection. Get it???? No. I don't think you do. You prefer blindness.

Acts 4:26 says nothing about a plan. These same people are gathered to carry out God's plan.

You prefer to see what you want to see.

 

[Presby02]

Words concerning the Crucifixion are not relative to Acts 4?

Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood together, and the rulers assembled together, against the Lord and against his Christ.’
Act 4:27 “For indeed both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together in this city against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed,
Act 4:28 to do as much as your power and your plan had decided beforehand would happen.

Yup. What part of the crucifixion was not part of God's plan. Quote the relevant text in Acts 4

 

[praise_yeshua]

Acts 4:26 says nothing about a plan. These same people are gathered to carry out God's plan.

You prefer to see what you want to see.

Do you even read what you write. You say there wasn't a plan mentioned and then claim it is God's plan. Are you delusional?