Open Debate on the "Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"

@101G

Before the foundation of the world there was ONE Spirit, whose name was Jehovah. Just because God purposed what he was going to do in time, before the foundation of the world, does not mean there was a body prior to Genesis 1:1.

@101G needs to reconsider this a little more.
ERROR, first God's name is not Jehovah. second, yes, there was a body before Genesis 1:1... a Glorified not yet manifested.
Third, the bible of the OT is all prophecy of things to come. did you not know this? yes prophecy of things that are to be revealed, or manifested in TIME to us. you should know this, already.

101G
 
ERROR, first God's name is not Jehovah. second, yes, there was a body before Genesis 1:1... a Glorified not yet manifested.
Third, the bible of the OT is all prophecy of things to come. did you not know this? yes prophecy of things that are to be revealed, or manifested in TIME to us. you should know this, already.

101G
Greetings.

Overview of the Old Testament Canon

The Old Testament comprises thirty-nine books recognized and revered within the broader body of Scripture. These books outline key events in ancient history, the formation of a covenant people, foundational moral teachings, poetic expressions of worship, and prophetic declarations. Preserved in Hebrew (with a few portions in Aramaic), they have been carefully transmitted through centuries, as demonstrated by archaeological findings such as the Dead Sea Scrolls. These ancient manuscripts confirm consistent scriptural texts that align quite closely with modern printed editions.

Below is a comprehensive summary of the Old Testament books, their traditional groupings, and relevant context.

I. The Pentateuch (Law or Torah)

Also referred to as the Five Books of Moses, the Pentateuch lays the foundation for understanding God's covenant dealings. These books trace the creation of the universe, humanity’s early history, the patriarchs, and the birth of the nation of Israel.

1. Genesis

Often translated as “beginnings,” Genesis recounts the creation of the world, the Flood, and the stories of key patriarchs-Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The text famously opens with: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1).

Archaeological finds, such as discoveries in the ancient Near East regions (e.g., Mesopotamia), support the cultural and geographical details seen in Genesis.

2. Exodus

This book describes the extraordinary deliverance of the Israelites from slavery in Egypt, emphasizing divine judgments on Egypt and the establishment of the covenant at Mount Sinai. The Ten Commandments are introduced here (see Exodus 20:1-17).

Historically, accounts of Egyptian records, topographical data, and the route of the exodus journey have been studied extensively, yielding insights that correlate with biblical references.

3. Leviticus

Leviticus centers on worship, holiness, priestly regulations, and sacrificial systems. It expands on moral and ceremonial laws, housing key instructions like: “Be holy because I am holy” (Leviticus 11:45).

The consistent attention to priestly details reflects the cultural practices of the time, with archaeological evidence showing parallels in neighboring ancient Near Eastern rituals.

4. Numbers

Named for the censuses it records, this book chronicles Israel’s wilderness wanderings. It highlights episodes of faith and rebellion, including the account of the spies sent into Canaan (Numbers 13-14).

Recent geographical and archaeological studies map many sites depicted in Numbers, showcasing how the narrative aligns with the terrain of the Sinai Peninsula and surrounding regions.

5. Deuteronomy

A series of final speeches by Moses, Deuteronomy restates the Law for a new generation about to enter the Promised Land. Deuteronomy 6:4 includes the famous Shema: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One.”

Scholars note how the structure of Deuteronomy mirrors ancient near-eastern treaty formats, suggesting a historically grounded context.

II. Historical Books

Following the Pentateuch, these twelve books track Israel’s entry into the land of Canaan, the era of judges, the establishment of the monarchy, the divided kingdom, and the eventual exile of the people.

1. Joshua

Conveys the conquest and settlement of Canaan. Detailed lists of cities and tribal allocations (Joshua 13-22) provide archaeologists with valuable site names. Excavations at locations such as Hazor and Jericho have intersected with biblical timelines.

2. Judges

Depicts a cyclical pattern of Israel’s back-and-forth obedience and rebellion. Figures like Deborah (Judges 4:4-16) and Gideon (Judges 6-8) exemplify leadership through times of moral and political turbulence.

3. Ruth

A short book focusing on loyalty and redemption, following Ruth’s journey from Moab to Bethlehem and her eventual inclusion in the lineage of King David (Ruth 4:13-22). This narrative underscores cultural customs like gleaning and levirate marriage.

4. 1 Samuel

Traces the childhood of the prophet Samuel, the role of the priest Eli, and the ascension of Israel’s first king, Saul. This book offers insight into tribal dynamics and the establishment of centralized governance.

5. 2 Samuel

Continues the narrative with David’s reign, highlighting his conquests, moral failings, and ultimate legacy. Chapter 7 is pivotal, featuring the Davidic Covenant, which promises a lasting dynasty (2 Samuel 7:12-16).

6. 1 Kings

Covers the close of David’s life, the rise of Solomon, the construction of the Temple, and the division of the kingdom into Israel (north) and Judah (south). Archaeological records (e.g., the Tel Dan Stele) corroborate names and events from this period.

7. 2 Kings

Documents the monarchy’s downward spiral, foreign invasions, and eventual exile of both kingdoms. References to the fall of Samaria (2 Kings 17) and the fall of Jerusalem (2 Kings 25) align with extrabiblical Assyrian and Babylonian records.

8. 1 Chronicles

Parallels much of the historical content found in Samuel and Kings, but with a more priestly perspective, highlighting genealogies and temple worship. The Chronicler’s emphasis on David’s lineage sets the stage for later reflections on the Messianic hope.

9. 2 Chronicles

Continues the detailed account of Judah’s kings, stressing temple reforms and spiritual revival. Exploration of archaeological sites tied to kings like Hezekiah has unearthed conduits and seals mentioned in biblical descriptions.

10. Ezra

Nehemiah’s contemporary, Ezra led a group of returned exiles, reinstating temple worship and the reading of the Law. The text underscores spiritual reform (Ezra 9-10), aligning with historical records of Persian decrees permitting Jewish return.

11. Nehemiah

Records the rebuilding of Jerusalem’s walls under Nehemiah’s governance, facing opposition and adversity. The archaeological evidence of fortifications around Jerusalem’s ancient City of David area offers external confirmation of such construction activities.

12. Esther

Depicts Jewish life in Persia under King Xerxes (Ahasuerus), spotlighting divine providence in the rescue of the Jewish people. The narrative’s mention of Persian courts aligns with historical details from Achaemenid Persian sources.

III. Poetic and Wisdom Books

These five books consist of poetic expressions, philosophical discourse, and instruction in righteous living, often shaping worship and reflection.

1. Job

An examination of suffering and faith, with Job’s discourses regarding divine justice. Such profound questions resonate with universal human experiences, pointing to a timeless theodicy that underscores trust in ultimate divine wisdom.

2. Psalms

A diverse compilation of 150 hymns, prayers, and laments, many attributed to David. Scripture frequently quotes Psalms to express worship, including praise such as: “The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want” (Psalm 23:1).

3. Proverbs

A collection of wise sayings and ethical teachings. Often credited to Solomon, it addresses everyday life topics: hard work, speech, relationships, and the fear of the LORD, as in: “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge” (Proverbs 1:7).

4. Ecclesiastes

Presents reflections on life’s purpose and the search for meaning. Often considered to be Solomon’s later writings, it concludes that fearing God and keeping His commandments is the essence of humanity’s duty (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

5. Song of Solomon (Song of Songs)

A poetic celebration of love within marriage, abundant in metaphors and imagery. Its inclusion in the canon highlights the importance of faithful covenant relationships, both human and divine.

IV. The Major Prophets

Named “major” due to their length (rather than greater importance), these five books foresee judgment and redemption, speaking authoritative words to ancient Israel, surrounding nations, and eventual future fulfillment.

1. Isaiah

Renowned for its Messianic prophecies, including the well-known passage: “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son…” (Isaiah 7:14). The Great Isaiah Scroll (among the Dead Sea Scrolls) demonstrates extensive manuscript continuity.

2. Jeremiah

Describes looming judgment on Judah and Jerusalem’s destruction, interspersed with promises of a New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34). The historical record of Babylonian invasions parallels this account.

3. Lamentations

A poetic lament over Jerusalem’s fall. The acrostic structure underscores the depth and intensity of the grief at the city’s destruction while still looking toward divine mercy.

4. Ezekiel

Known for vivid imagery and symbolic actions. Ezekiel ministered among the exiles in Babylon, emphasizing personal responsibility and a hopeful vision of restoration (Ezekiel 37:1-14).

5. Daniel

A blend of narrative and apocalyptic prophecy, portraying Daniel’s steadfast faith in captivity (Daniel 6) and foretelling future kingdoms. Historical cross-references highlight Babylonian and Persian contexts affirming Daniel’s setting.

V. The Minor Prophets

Also referred to as the Book of the Twelve, these shorter prophetic books present messages of warning, hope, and spiritual insight. Despite being more concise, they are no less significant in shaping the biblical narrative.

1. Hosea

Illustrates God’s relentless love, likening Israel’s unfaithfulness to marital betrayal.

2. Joel

Speaks of looming judgment through locust plagues and promises a future outpouring of God’s Spirit (Joel 2:28-29).

3. Amos

Denounces social injustice in Israel, calling for genuine righteousness rather than empty ritual.

4. Obadiah

The shortest Old Testament book, detailing Edom’s downfall and Israel’s eventual triumph.

5. Jonah

Recounts Jonah’s commission to preach to Nineveh, highlighting God’s mercy on repentant nations.

6. Micah

Targets issues of social injustice but also foresees a ruler born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2).

7. Nahum

Declares the impending destruction of Nineveh, displaying the justice of the Almighty.

8. Habakkuk

Wrestles with seemingly unanswered injustice, concluding that “the righteous will live by faith” (Habakkuk 2:4).

9. Zephaniah

Prophesies a sweeping day of the LORD’s judgment, followed by restoration for the faithful.

10. Haggai

Urges the returned exiles to rebuild the temple and place God’s priorities first.

11. Zechariah

Contains apocalyptic visions and Messianic predictions, encouraging the community’s spiritual renewal.

12. Malachi

The final Old Testament book addresses spiritual complacency and foretells the coming of “Elijah” (Malachi 4:5-6), bridging toward the New Testament period.

Supporting Historical and Archaeological Evidence

Multiple lines of evidence bolster the reliability of these books. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, dating as early as the third century BC, reveals that the text of many Old Testament books was transmitted with remarkable accuracy. Other archaeological artifacts, such as the Taylor Prism referencing Sennacherib’s campaigns, or the Cyrus Cylinder from the Persian era, tie directly to events recorded in Kings, Chronicles, Ezra, and Nehemiah.

Conclusion

The Old Testament features thirty-nine books that trace sacred history, worship, and prophecy, culminating in a collective narrative demonstrating divine sovereignty, covenant relationship, and preparation for the New Testament era. The continuity observed in ancient manuscripts, alongside corroborating cultural and historical data, affirms the authenticity and enduring significance of these foundational writings.
 
ERROR, first God's name is not Jehovah. second, yes, there was a body before Genesis 1:1... a Glorified not yet manifested.
Third, the bible of the OT is all prophecy of things to come. did you not know this? yes prophecy of things that are to be revealed, or manifested in TIME to us. you should know this, already.

101G
Who best to know a person's name than themselves, would you disagree? You seem to think you know better than God what his name is. Maybe he forget and needs you help to remind him what his name really is. I speak as a fool, on purpose.

The four consonants of I AM THAT I AM form the Jewish tetragrammaton, which the KJV identifies over 6,000 times as LORD (all capitals). The tetragrammaton pointed up with vowels is Jehovah.

Many Bible names include portions or all of Jehovah as prefixes or suffixes e.g. Jehovah-Jireh (Genesis 22:14), Jehoshua (Numbers 22:16), Jehoshaphat (2nd Samuel 8:16), Elijah (1st Kings ), and Alleluia (Revelation 19:1).

Jehovah, I AM THAT I AM, is the only true and living God, the Creator God of the Bible. His Son is Jesus, or Jehoshua in Hebrew, which means Jehovah is salvation, as the angel specified (Matthew 1:21).

Do we know this God? The Bible tells us about Him and His Son. we should fear and love both. and a wise man will.

You said:

"Third, the bible of the OT is all prophecy of things to come. did you not know this? yes prophecy of things that are to be revealed, or manifested in TIME to us. you should know this, already."

Of course we all that that to be so, not only, but as a whole, yes. Yet that does not prove that there were bodies before Genesis 1:1. Give me scriptures proving that bodies were before Genesis 1;1
 
Laptop going black can mean many different things. It could be losing power from battery issues or even a bad power button itself. It could also be hibernating. I would recommend when it is working, go into the power settings and disable hibernation. Also set the hard drive to not go to sleep. If you keep it always plugged up, none of those settings actually amount to anything.

WI-FI Direct isn't anything you actually need. It just allows a direct connection over wifi to the printer without the necessity of a wireless router. It gives the printer more flexibility when deploying it but it isn't necessary. You should be connecting it to your wifi network and then printing to it. Sounds like it was actually hard reset and the wifi direct came on because it is defaulted in factory settings. Not sure what model it is but I can look it up if you have a model #.

You can always print to a printer if it has a USB port. It is always active. There might be one somewhere that can be disabled but I've never seen one personally. You can find settings like this on very expensive equipment. Also, it doesn't sound like it is too old to not work with Windows 11 (not sure if you have this or not. Windows 10 pretty much is left without security patches after November this year). Just mentioning it as a side note.

Not sure if I covered what you're looking for. Let me know. Thanks.
Thank you,
 
Sure you are promoting a religion your own manmade one called Unitarianism

Whether it's the man-made religion of the "triune god", or the man-made religion you call "Unitarianism", I promote neither one. You say I do, but you also say Jesus wasn't a Man of Faith.

This is a tenant of your adopted religion, that anyone who doesn't adopt this world's "triune god", along with the man made high days in worship of this god, is a reprobate. You also preach the Prophesied Messiah, the prophesied man child, born of a virgin, was NOT a MAN of Faith, but overcame sin and temptation in this world by reserving powers unto Himself that HE Himself withheld from all other humans, then glorified Himself above all other humans, by overcoming with powers no other human was allowed to have. And that your triune god created laws impossible for men to obey, then lied to people by telling them they could obey, then slaughtered them by the thousands when they didn't obey.

This is the religion of this world that hates God. And it's tenants are embraced by this entire world. Movies and statues and massive religious sects and businesses all embrace this "triune god". The entire world's economies are influenced by how many people spend money partaking of this religions man-made high days of worship towards this worlds "triune god". This world loves this god.

While the "Way of the Lord", not of this world, that Jesus Walked in, that "Made Him Perfect" as it is written, is rejected and despised as prophesied. The Judgments, Statutes and Commandments HE walked in, and instructed me to walk in, are rejected by this world's religions, and always have been. Men who "Press Towards" the perfection that was in Christ Jesus, are called names, cast out, ridiculed and demeaned. This world's religious system, embraced by the masses, has despised the Jesus "of the Bible", the Author and Finisher of True Faith.

And replaced Him with "another Jesus" who faked His own death.

That is the man-made religion.
 
Whether it's the man-made religion of the "triune god", or the man-made religion you call "Unitarianism", I promote neither one. You say I do, but you also say Jesus wasn't a Man of Faith.

This is a tenant of your adopted religion, that anyone who doesn't adopt this world's "triune god", along with the man made high days in worship of this god, is a reprobate. You also preach the Prophesied Messiah, the prophesied man child, born of a virgin, was NOT a MAN of Faith, but overcame sin and temptation in this world by reserving powers unto Himself that HE Himself withheld from all other humans, then glorified Himself above all other humans, by overcoming with powers no other human was allowed to have. And that your triune god created laws impossible for men to obey, then lied to people by telling them they could obey, then slaughtered them by the thousands when they didn't obey.

This is the religion of this world that hates God. And it's tenants are embraced by this entire world. Movies and statues and massive religious sects and businesses all embrace this "triune god". The entire world's economies are influenced by how many people spend money partaking of this religions man-made high days of worship towards this worlds "triune god". This world loves this god.

While the "Way of the Lord", not of this world, that Jesus Walked in, that "Made Him Perfect" as it is written, is rejected and despised as prophesied. The Judgments, Statutes and Commandments HE walked in, and instructed me to walk in, are rejected by this world's religions, and always have been. Men who "Press Towards" the perfection that was in Christ Jesus, are called names, cast out, ridiculed and demeaned. This world's religious system, embraced by the masses, has despised the Jesus "of the Bible", the Author and Finisher of True Faith.

And replaced Him with "another Jesus" who faked His own death.

That is the man-made religion.
You are a unitarian so deny promoting it all you want its like me as a trinitarian saying I don't promote the trinity. Its an oxymoron at best or a lie at worst.
 
thanks for the reply, but 101G must disagree. and here's why. Genesis 2:7 “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

when spirit meets body, a soul is created. and did God have a body before the foundation of the world? yes. 1 Peter 1:20 'Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you".

so, God had a body that was to come, ... in the fullness time, for man is in God IMAGE ..... Who is himself a "spirit".

hope this help.

101G.
The problem with what you have presented is that, strictly speaking, the soul is not something you have. rather it is something that you are. In Genesis one, the Hebrew word for soul in Genesis 2:7 is nephesh. That same word occurs in verses 1:21 and 1:24.

Gen 1:21 So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature (Heb - nephesh) that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures (Heb - nephesh) according to their kinds--livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so.

That word nephesh throughout the OT is translated soul, whether referring to man or animals. It means, a breathing creature. Thus, both man and animals are souls (creatures). The Hebrew word for spirit is ruach. Just like a body, the spirit is something that we as human beings, i.e., living souls, possess. However, that is not the case for other animals. Since God is Spirit, it is in man's spirit that he is created in God's image.

Strictly speaking, we human beings are souls, i.e., creatures, that have both a body and a spirit. Animals are also souls, i.e., creatures, that have a body. However, they do not have spirits. In both the OT and the NT when speaking of human beings, the word soul and spirit are almost always used interchangeably.

Therefore, I do not agree with your interpretation that God has a body. God is Spirit. Angels are spirits. Human beings are living beings with a body and a spirit. In that sense humans are spirits also, but spirits which are formed within humans (see Zechariah 12:1; Ecclesiastes 12:7).

In the case of Jesus, He was Spirit, John refers to Him as "Word". He took on the body, the flesh and blood, of a human being when He was the child of the woman Mary. And there we see the difference between Jesus and the rest of mankind. We are creatures into which God forms a spirit. Jesus is Spirit which took on the body of a creature. And that is how Jesus was both 100% human and 100% divine.
 
@civic if you're willing, we can REASON OUT who is sitting on the throne in Revelation chapter 4 and 5

not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this, "is not the Lord Jesus God's "OWN ARM?". and do an arm act on it's own or is directed by the head?

101G.

Great question. In my understanding, God's reference to "His Arm" in the Law and Prophets always meant "Strength, Power, help".

I agree that the "Arm/hand" of God is the Lord's Christ.

Mark. 9: 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

I don't believe the Scriptures portrayed the Christ as a robot, programed to obey God. I come by this understanding by believing what is written about Him.

Ps. 45: 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore (Because of this) God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Phil. 2: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he "humbled himself", and "became" obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore (Because of this) God (His God) also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Matt. 3: 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, "in whom I am well pleased".

Clearly Jesus, the perfect Man of Faith, "Chose" to "Please His Father", in my view.

Heb. 11: 6 But "without faith" it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is "a rewarder" of them "that diligently seek him".

Heb. 5: 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able "to save him from death", and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet "learned he obedience" by the things which he suffered; 9 And being "made perfect", he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So I would say Jesus, my Lord, according to what is written, chose to be directed, not by His Own Will, but chose to be directed "By His Head", the Will of His God who, according to Him, is also my God.

And for this reason, according to Scriptures, His God Glorified Him.
 
Greetings.

Overview of the Old Testament Canon

The Old Testament comprises thirty-nine books recognized and revered within the broader body of Scripture. These books outline key events in ancient history, the formation of a covenant people, foundational moral teachings, poetic expressions of worship, and prophetic declarations. Preserved in Hebrew (with a few portions in Aramaic), they have been carefully transmitted through centuries, as demonstrated by archaeological findings such as the Dead Sea Scrolls. These ancient manuscripts confirm consistent scriptural texts that align quite closely with modern printed editions.

Below is a comprehensive summary of the Old Testament books, their traditional groupings, and relevant context.

I. The Pentateuch (Law or Torah)

Also referred to as the Five Books of Moses, the Pentateuch lays the foundation for understanding God's covenant dealings. These books trace the creation of the universe, humanity’s early history, the patriarchs, and the birth of the nation of Israel.

1. Genesis

Often translated as “beginnings,” Genesis recounts the creation of the world, the Flood, and the stories of key patriarchs-Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The text famously opens with: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1).

Archaeological finds, such as discoveries in the ancient Near East regions (e.g., Mesopotamia), support the cultural and geographical details seen in Genesis.

2. Exodus

This book describes the extraordinary deliverance of the Israelites from slavery in Egypt, emphasizing divine judgments on Egypt and the establishment of the covenant at Mount Sinai. The Ten Commandments are introduced here (see Exodus 20:1-17).

Historically, accounts of Egyptian records, topographical data, and the route of the exodus journey have been studied extensively, yielding insights that correlate with biblical references.

3. Leviticus

Leviticus centers on worship, holiness, priestly regulations, and sacrificial systems. It expands on moral and ceremonial laws, housing key instructions like: “Be holy because I am holy” (Leviticus 11:45).

The consistent attention to priestly details reflects the cultural practices of the time, with archaeological evidence showing parallels in neighboring ancient Near Eastern rituals.

4. Numbers

Named for the censuses it records, this book chronicles Israel’s wilderness wanderings. It highlights episodes of faith and rebellion, including the account of the spies sent into Canaan (Numbers 13-14).

Recent geographical and archaeological studies map many sites depicted in Numbers, showcasing how the narrative aligns with the terrain of the Sinai Peninsula and surrounding regions.

5. Deuteronomy

A series of final speeches by Moses, Deuteronomy restates the Law for a new generation about to enter the Promised Land. Deuteronomy 6:4 includes the famous Shema: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One.”

Scholars note how the structure of Deuteronomy mirrors ancient near-eastern treaty formats, suggesting a historically grounded context.

II. Historical Books

Following the Pentateuch, these twelve books track Israel’s entry into the land of Canaan, the era of judges, the establishment of the monarchy, the divided kingdom, and the eventual exile of the people.

1. Joshua

Conveys the conquest and settlement of Canaan. Detailed lists of cities and tribal allocations (Joshua 13-22) provide archaeologists with valuable site names. Excavations at locations such as Hazor and Jericho have intersected with biblical timelines.

2. Judges

Depicts a cyclical pattern of Israel’s back-and-forth obedience and rebellion. Figures like Deborah (Judges 4:4-16) and Gideon (Judges 6-8) exemplify leadership through times of moral and political turbulence.

3. Ruth

A short book focusing on loyalty and redemption, following Ruth’s journey from Moab to Bethlehem and her eventual inclusion in the lineage of King David (Ruth 4:13-22). This narrative underscores cultural customs like gleaning and levirate marriage.

4. 1 Samuel

Traces the childhood of the prophet Samuel, the role of the priest Eli, and the ascension of Israel’s first king, Saul. This book offers insight into tribal dynamics and the establishment of centralized governance.

5. 2 Samuel

Continues the narrative with David’s reign, highlighting his conquests, moral failings, and ultimate legacy. Chapter 7 is pivotal, featuring the Davidic Covenant, which promises a lasting dynasty (2 Samuel 7:12-16).

6. 1 Kings

Covers the close of David’s life, the rise of Solomon, the construction of the Temple, and the division of the kingdom into Israel (north) and Judah (south). Archaeological records (e.g., the Tel Dan Stele) corroborate names and events from this period.

7. 2 Kings

Documents the monarchy’s downward spiral, foreign invasions, and eventual exile of both kingdoms. References to the fall of Samaria (2 Kings 17) and the fall of Jerusalem (2 Kings 25) align with extrabiblical Assyrian and Babylonian records.

8. 1 Chronicles

Parallels much of the historical content found in Samuel and Kings, but with a more priestly perspective, highlighting genealogies and temple worship. The Chronicler’s emphasis on David’s lineage sets the stage for later reflections on the Messianic hope.

9. 2 Chronicles

Continues the detailed account of Judah’s kings, stressing temple reforms and spiritual revival. Exploration of archaeological sites tied to kings like Hezekiah has unearthed conduits and seals mentioned in biblical descriptions.

10. Ezra

Nehemiah’s contemporary, Ezra led a group of returned exiles, reinstating temple worship and the reading of the Law. The text underscores spiritual reform (Ezra 9-10), aligning with historical records of Persian decrees permitting Jewish return.

11. Nehemiah

Records the rebuilding of Jerusalem’s walls under Nehemiah’s governance, facing opposition and adversity. The archaeological evidence of fortifications around Jerusalem’s ancient City of David area offers external confirmation of such construction activities.

12. Esther

Depicts Jewish life in Persia under King Xerxes (Ahasuerus), spotlighting divine providence in the rescue of the Jewish people. The narrative’s mention of Persian courts aligns with historical details from Achaemenid Persian sources.

III. Poetic and Wisdom Books

These five books consist of poetic expressions, philosophical discourse, and instruction in righteous living, often shaping worship and reflection.

1. Job

An examination of suffering and faith, with Job’s discourses regarding divine justice. Such profound questions resonate with universal human experiences, pointing to a timeless theodicy that underscores trust in ultimate divine wisdom.

2. Psalms

A diverse compilation of 150 hymns, prayers, and laments, many attributed to David. Scripture frequently quotes Psalms to express worship, including praise such as: “The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want” (Psalm 23:1).

3. Proverbs

A collection of wise sayings and ethical teachings. Often credited to Solomon, it addresses everyday life topics: hard work, speech, relationships, and the fear of the LORD, as in: “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge” (Proverbs 1:7).

4. Ecclesiastes

Presents reflections on life’s purpose and the search for meaning. Often considered to be Solomon’s later writings, it concludes that fearing God and keeping His commandments is the essence of humanity’s duty (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

5. Song of Solomon (Song of Songs)

A poetic celebration of love within marriage, abundant in metaphors and imagery. Its inclusion in the canon highlights the importance of faithful covenant relationships, both human and divine.

IV. The Major Prophets

Named “major” due to their length (rather than greater importance), these five books foresee judgment and redemption, speaking authoritative words to ancient Israel, surrounding nations, and eventual future fulfillment.

1. Isaiah

Renowned for its Messianic prophecies, including the well-known passage: “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son…” (Isaiah 7:14). The Great Isaiah Scroll (among the Dead Sea Scrolls) demonstrates extensive manuscript continuity.

2. Jeremiah

Describes looming judgment on Judah and Jerusalem’s destruction, interspersed with promises of a New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34). The historical record of Babylonian invasions parallels this account.

3. Lamentations

A poetic lament over Jerusalem’s fall. The acrostic structure underscores the depth and intensity of the grief at the city’s destruction while still looking toward divine mercy.

4. Ezekiel

Known for vivid imagery and symbolic actions. Ezekiel ministered among the exiles in Babylon, emphasizing personal responsibility and a hopeful vision of restoration (Ezekiel 37:1-14).

5. Daniel

A blend of narrative and apocalyptic prophecy, portraying Daniel’s steadfast faith in captivity (Daniel 6) and foretelling future kingdoms. Historical cross-references highlight Babylonian and Persian contexts affirming Daniel’s setting.

V. The Minor Prophets

Also referred to as the Book of the Twelve, these shorter prophetic books present messages of warning, hope, and spiritual insight. Despite being more concise, they are no less significant in shaping the biblical narrative.

1. Hosea

Illustrates God’s relentless love, likening Israel’s unfaithfulness to marital betrayal.

2. Joel

Speaks of looming judgment through locust plagues and promises a future outpouring of God’s Spirit (Joel 2:28-29).

3. Amos

Denounces social injustice in Israel, calling for genuine righteousness rather than empty ritual.

4. Obadiah

The shortest Old Testament book, detailing Edom’s downfall and Israel’s eventual triumph.

5. Jonah

Recounts Jonah’s commission to preach to Nineveh, highlighting God’s mercy on repentant nations.

6. Micah

Targets issues of social injustice but also foresees a ruler born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2).

7. Nahum

Declares the impending destruction of Nineveh, displaying the justice of the Almighty.

8. Habakkuk

Wrestles with seemingly unanswered injustice, concluding that “the righteous will live by faith” (Habakkuk 2:4).

9. Zephaniah

Prophesies a sweeping day of the LORD’s judgment, followed by restoration for the faithful.

10. Haggai

Urges the returned exiles to rebuild the temple and place God’s priorities first.

11. Zechariah

Contains apocalyptic visions and Messianic predictions, encouraging the community’s spiritual renewal.

12. Malachi

The final Old Testament book addresses spiritual complacency and foretells the coming of “Elijah” (Malachi 4:5-6), bridging toward the New Testament period.

Supporting Historical and Archaeological Evidence

Multiple lines of evidence bolster the reliability of these books. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, dating as early as the third century BC, reveals that the text of many Old Testament books was transmitted with remarkable accuracy. Other archaeological artifacts, such as the Taylor Prism referencing Sennacherib’s campaigns, or the Cyrus Cylinder from the Persian era, tie directly to events recorded in Kings, Chronicles, Ezra, and Nehemiah.

Conclusion

The Old Testament features thirty-nine books that trace sacred history, worship, and prophecy, culminating in a collective narrative demonstrating divine sovereignty, covenant relationship, and preparation for the New Testament era. The continuity observed in ancient manuscripts, alongside corroborating cultural and historical data, affirms the authenticity and enduring significance of these foundational writings.
and?

101G.
 
Who best to know a person's name than themselves, would you disagree? You seem to think you know better than God what his name is. Maybe he forget and needs you help to remind him what his name really is. I speak as a fool, on purpose.

The four consonants of I AM THAT I AM form the Jewish tetragrammaton, which the KJV identifies over 6,000 times as LORD (all capitals). The tetragrammaton pointed up with vowels is Jehovah.

Many Bible names include portions or all of Jehovah as prefixes or suffixes e.g. Jehovah-Jireh (Genesis 22:14), Jehoshua (Numbers 22:16), Jehoshaphat (2nd Samuel 8:16), Elijah (1st Kings ), and Alleluia (Revelation 19:1).

Jehovah, I AM THAT I AM, is the only true and living God, the Creator God of the Bible. His Son is Jesus, or Jehoshua in Hebrew, which means Jehovah is salvation, as the angel specified (Matthew 1:21).

Do we know this God? The Bible tells us about Him and His Son. we should fear and love both. and a wise man will.
Well ok, Let's see. you gave scripture, Many Bible names include portions or all of Jehovah as prefixes or suffixes e.g. Jehovah-Jireh (Genesis 22:14), Fine let's see the ERROR of that name. Listen carefully. Exodus 6:3 "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them." God speaking, and he said, Abraham did not know the name of God as JEHOVAH ... right, so why is that name in Abraham mouth? remember YOUR scripture... Genesis 22:14 "And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen." and do not Exodus comes after Genesis? and God spoke this in Exodus, so who is LYING? we KNOW God don't LIE, and Abraham is the Friend of God who is ... "FAITHFUL", with the promise, and he didn't lie... so who LIED? the translators. they put that lie in Abraham mouth, ..... Ignorant MEN. see how easy it is to catch a lie of men.

as 101G said, God name was never JEHOVAH. Ignorant MEN added vowels to the tetragrammaton, and MEN tampered with it by adding vowels to these four letters. the tetragrammaton is a term from the Greek word, τετραγράμματον, meaning, "a word having four letters". It is the Hebrew written word, or four letters, (יהוה), Yodh, He, Waw, He, hence the translation into English, YHWH, or JHVH by some. these four letters, suppose to be the unpronounced name of God. and from these four letters come the man made names Yahweh, Hebrew, and Jehovah, English.

so we have the English man made, and the Hebrew man made form of God's supposed unpronounced name. Every time men add or take away from the Word of God/the TRUTH they put the spiritual noose around their own necks.

101G suggest that one listen to God instead of men.

101G.
 
That word nephesh throughout the OT is translated soul, whether referring to man or animals. It means, a breathing creature. Thus, both man and animals are souls (creatures). The Hebrew word for spirit is ruach. Just like a body, the spirit is something that we as human beings, i.e., living souls, possess. However, that is not the case for other animals. Since God is Spirit, it is in man's spirit that he is created in God's image.
STOP right there and listen... Job 27:3 "All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;"
now please tell us who is the MY and the ME, while the spirit of God is in our nostrils? your answer please.

101G
 
You are a unitarian so deny promoting it all you want its like me as a trinitarian saying I don't promote the trinity. Its an oxymoron at best or a lie at worst.


It's hard to keep up with your perpetual judgments Civic. I believe that there is No relationship with God without His Son, my Lord, the Jesus "of the Bible". And there is no relationship with my Lord, the Jesus "of the bible" unless HIS God gives me to Him. I believe their relationship existed before the world was, when they were both Spirits. I believe they were both "Holy Spirits". I believe God sent the Christ into the world to complete a work in the very beginning, "let there be Light". And part of this "work" included becoming a man in the person of Jesus to provide a sacrifice for the transgressions of those who God would give to Him for cleansing.

There is no God, without the Christ "of the Bible" in this world. There is no Christ without the God "of the Bible" in this world. "Uni" means 1. "Tri" means 3. I don't believe the Godhead "of the Bible" is either.

But I know how this world's religious system functions, and how important it is for it's promoters to place those who do not adopt their triune god into judgment boxes. So you go ahead and place me in another of your judgment boxes according to your religious traditions. I have come to expect nothing different, according to the Prophesies of the Lord's Christ Himself.

And I will continue pressing towards the perfect Faith that was in Christ Jesus, as did Paul, Abraham and all the examples of Faithful man delivered to us through the Holy Scriptures.

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, "and" the faith of Jesus.
 
The
Well ok, Let's see. you gave scripture, Many Bible names include portions or all of Jehovah as prefixes or suffixes e.g. Jehovah-Jireh (Genesis 22:14), Fine let's see the ERROR of that name. Listen carefully. Exodus 6:3 "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them." God speaking, and he said, Abraham did not know the name of God as JEHOVAH ... right, so why is that name in Abraham mouth? remember YOUR scripture... Genesis 22:14 "And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen." and do not Exodus comes after Genesis? and God spoke this in Exodus, so who is LYING? we KNOW God don't LIE, and Abraham is the Friend of God who is ... "FAITHFUL", with the promise, and he didn't lie... so who LIED? the translators. they put that lie in Abraham mouth, ..... Ignorant MEN. see how easy it is to catch a lie of men.

as 101G said, God name was never JEHOVAH. Ignorant MEN added vowels to the tetragrammaton, and MEN tampered with it by adding vowels to these four letters. the tetragrammaton is a term from the Greek word, τετραγράμματον, meaning, "a word having four letters". It is the Hebrew written word, or four letters, (יהוה), Yodh, He, Waw, He, hence the translation into English, YHWH, or JHVH by some. these four letters, suppose to be the unpronounced name of God. and from these four letters come the man made names Yahweh, Hebrew, and Jehovah, English.

so we have the English man made, and the Hebrew man made form of God's supposed unpronounced name. Every time men add or take away from the Word of God/the TRUTH they put the spiritual noose around their own necks.

101G suggest that one listen to God instead of men.

101G.
You surprise me. Did you post that from someone else or write yourself. It is wrong in some ways but better than many.
 
Great question. In my understanding, God's reference to "His Arm" in the Law and Prophets always meant "Strength, Power, help".

I agree that the "Arm/hand" of God is the Lord's Christ.

Mark. 9: 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

I don't believe the Scriptures portrayed the Christ as a robot, programed to obey God. I come by this understanding by believing what is written about Him.

Ps. 45: 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore (Because of this) God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Phil. 2: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he "humbled himself", and "became" obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore (Because of this) God (His God) also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Matt. 3: 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, "in whom I am well pleased".

Clearly Jesus, the perfect Man of Faith, "Chose" to "Please His Father", in my view.

Heb. 11: 6 But "without faith" it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is "a rewarder" of them "that diligently seek him".

Heb. 5: 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able "to save him from death", and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet "learned he obedience" by the things which he suffered; 9 And being "made perfect", he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So I would say Jesus, my Lord, according to what is written, chose to be directed, not by His Own Will, but chose to be directed "By His Head", the Will of His God who, according to Him, is also my God.

And for this reason, according to Scriptures, His God Glorified Him.
GINOLJC, to all,
First thanks for the reply. second, no, the Lord Jesus is not a robot. you just misunderstood what the FUNCTION of the ARM of God is. let 101G give you an example ok.

The arm of flesh vs The Arm of the LORD, “authority”​
When Sennacherib king of Assyria invaded Judah, with him was his ARMY, called an ARM of FLESH. 2 Chronicles 32:7 "Be strong and courageous, be not afraid nor dismayed for the king of Assyria, nor for all the multitude that is with him: for there be more with us than with him: 8 With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the LORD our God to help us, and to fight our battles. And the people rested themselves upon the words of Hezekiah king of Judah".

so, the "POWER" or the "ARM" of Sennacherib king of Assyria was his ARMY. one of the failing prompts of the Unitarians, and the JW belief, and others is this. they say, "Jesus is not God", and one of there excuses they quote, "he could do nothing of himself", John 8:28 "Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things”.

as the "the ARM of God", he , Jesus, was not authorized to act alone, or his own . this is clear as with the Assyrian army. no army act alone, or on their own power or authorization. not even our, the American Army, just get up and go to war with another country without authorization from the commander in chief, or the congress. just as 101G's own physical arm don't wave unless 101G head authorized it to wave. the head gives direction to the body, while on earth in a body, he is the body of Christ, the Church. this is explained in the understanding of the use of POWERS, the G1411 dunamis, and the G1849 exousia. just as the Army can do nothing of their own so do the Lord Jesus, he don't act alone, while on earth in flesh. hence one of the reason why he was in a G2758 keno, (to abase, neutralize, or make of none effect) state. but at his baptism he was authorized with G1849 exousia to act in the NAME of God, who doth the work. as to forgive sin, heal the sick, raise the dead, and so on. he is our example of how the G1849 exousia works. and that's why we, as 1 John 3:2a states, "now we're the Sons of God". because we was not before, by default, (in sin), we was the son of the evil one. our Lord Jesus having the NATURE, (see Phil 2:5) of God. yes, BEING IN THE FORM of God, having his nature, he took on our humanity. so that as the "KINSMAN" redeemer, (the power, or the ARM of God), in flesh and blood, (a Man... God own IMAGE), he then could give that BLOOD, which is the LIFE of the flesh, for our sins. see the ARM of God was authorized at his baptism, by the Holy Spirit descending on him. understand now? ... ARM of Flesh, the POWER of God.

101G.
 
STOP right there and listen... Job 27:3 "All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;"
now please tell us who is the MY and the ME, while the spirit of God is in our nostrils? your answer please.

101G
Albert Barnes says:

Job 27:3

And the spirit of God is in my nostrils - As long as I live. The “spirit of God” here means the breath that God breathed into man when he created him, Gen_2:7. It would seem probable that there was an allusion to that fact by the language here, and that the knowledge of the way in which man was created was thus handed down by tradition.


Seems About right.

But how does any of that disagree with anything that I presented.
 
The

You surprise me. Did you post that from someone else or write yourself. It is wrong in some ways but better than many.
no. 101G posted it before, and yes, it's the same .... FACTS....... (smile).

now to follow up, the NAME "JESUS", the Strong's # is (H3442), look this Strong’s number up. it is written Yod-Shin-Vav-Ayin, it is a masculine noun that means, "He is salvation" or "He saves”. for only God SAVES. H3442 יֵשׁוַּע Yeshuwa` (yay-shoo'-ah) n/l.
1. he will save.
2. Jeshua, the name of ten Israelites, also of a place in Israel.
[for H3091]
KJV: Jeshua.
Root(s): H3091

this name was given in the O.T. but hidden in PLAIN SIGHT... (Smile).

101G.
 
Intro:

This is a debate that anyone can join into so long as you KEEP IT ON TOPIC.

Specifically posted in this forum due to the fact that it is the bible that is at the heart of both beliefs and it is good to get it sides defined.

The sides being where you come down on Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship ?

Prologue: of sorts....

The following cut and pastes came from The member Comments of the current limited debate "The Deity of Jesus Christ , True or False" and has been suggested again by @Red Baker.

Copy starts now to bring all up to date........................................

@Red Baker
@FreeInChrist
I was rushing my self ~meant to write along, not alone!
Save time and make it simple: Eternal Sonship vss Incarnate Sonship which is biblical? I'll be on the Incarnate Sonship side, and maybe @dwight92070 can be with me, since what I have read from some of his posit, he seems to be an incarnate believer, even if he does not call himself that.

Or, better yet, just start a thread on this subject, since there are Christians on both side of this subject and some have never even considered the other side and all of its ramifications.

@FreeInChrist
Ill take it under advisement and let you know.

Or better yet.....

Anyone reading this in any way interested in either side of this?

@360watt

I would also be on the Jesus always being God side. Pre existent as the Son. Son as in 'image ' 'expression ' rather than 'born out of'. But this may be a bit too technical of a debate. I can try though.

Red
@360watt
Brother, the good thing is this: there are believers on both side, one just not yet educated on the Sonship doctrine.

I was first taught the eternal Sonship position, but soon found that it has some serious hole in its position. Many good men that I have high regard for taught the eternal Sonship position. But, we can not follow man, but the scriptures.

I do not know all that Michael Servetus believe in his strong disagreement with John Calvin, that cost him his life. but it was over this very issue, to what degree we shall never know since Servetus' works were burned with him. But histroy tell us his last words were these:

AI Overview

Defending the Execution of Servetus – Purely Presbyterian


Michael Servetus's last words, uttered as he was being burned at the stake in 1553, were, "Jesus, Son of the Eternal God, have mercy on me". These words are considered a reflection of his anti-Trinitarian views, as he emphasized Jesus' identity as the "Son of the Eternal God" rather than "eternal Son of God".

Red
One more thought.

John Calvin did not have Servetus burned, because of his understanding, the men of Geneva did. Calvin labored to get him to changed his understanding but refused to do so. Michael Servetus went to Geneva to confront Calvin, which was not wise on his part. I have read some things where Calvin and him disagree but only from Calvin's writings, so, who knows, I would have love to hear exactly what Michael Servetus did truly believe, but his confession sounded very good, so who knows.

@Eternally Grateful
I would be curious to understand how someone who does not believe in the eternal essence of the son, can trust in the cross for salvation. and be satisfied with this.

If Jesus is mere man. How could he pay for all of our sin?

@Red Baker

The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.

Please consider carefully: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time~Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation~therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity~is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.

You said: "How someone who does not believe in the eternal essence of the son, can trust in the cross for salvation. and be satisfied with this. If Jesus is mere man. How could he pay for all of our sin?"

By the very fact God was his Father, being the very express image of who God is, more than qualify him to be the very person for God to laid help upon to secure the salvation of his elect.

@Eternally-Grateful
Begotten is his humanity..,
I ask again

How can you trust a God who punishes a mere man for your salvation. And not the eternal God

Scripture said it is through Jesus all things were created.

It calls him God

Jesus said before abraham came into existence. he always existed (he is eternal)

I mean I do not get it.

@Red Baker
Later, I have meeting. I have explained this at length a few times over, but will be happy to do so again Late this afternoon ~ EST.

@FreeInChrist

You say your beliefs are grounded in the bible....

I will repeat from before
Col 1: 15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Irrefutable proof that Jesus was before creation. Before any creation, even of the angels as Col 1:15 reads
Now... let us move on tyo what it says elsewhere in the Holy Scriptures and why.
In eternity past
Matthew 11:27: “All these things have been given to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father and anyone to whom the Son of Man decides to reveal him.”

The bottom line is that the Greek present tense is timeless and supports the notion that the Father and Son knew each other intimately for eternity, in the past, present and future—forever. Jesus did not become the Son at his birth or baptism
check out ~ (Matthew: Zondervan Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament [Zondervan, 2010], p. 440).

Back to John ever so briefly:

John 1: 1-2 states that God and the Word existed before creation:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.

This verse further clarifies the identity of God and the Word ~ they ARE Father and Son, who came from the Father in heaven

John 1:14 states ~ And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

then

John 17:5 states ~ “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Right here, for no one to miss... Jesus is saying with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Jesus is stating to the Father they were together before the world was.
If this is not convincing you yet.... answer this

So how does Jesus have the status of being the Word, and how does God have the status of being God before the world existed but do not have the status of the Father and Son before creation?

How do you understand John 5:26? “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
Do you see this gift cannot be temporary because the Father also has life in himself eternally. Therefore the Son also has life in himself eternally–just as the Father has this.
How about John 17:24? “Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
Can you not understand this is the Son talking to his Father about when they were before the foundation of the world.
John 1:18 says: No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
First note the further proof of Jesus being God here. Plus Jesus more fully reveals their status and nature of Father and Son...beyond God and Word. Therefore the Father was in heaven with his Son before the incarnation and birth.
John 8:38. “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” The point is they were in close relationship as we have seen in John 1:1-2, 14 and 17:5. This relationship in the Father’s presence happened before the incarnation. To be the Father, he had to have at least one son in his presence. That Son is Jesus.
@FreeInChrist

I would welcome you, but at the same time I will ask @civic or @Administrator if they can mopve this from where Red said he wanted a debate into its own thread... not necessarily a debate opne but could be.... so comments from that debate dont
bump into these.

I already answered one to Red... so basically in my mind it is on... no matter where.

So come on in, the water is fine

@Administrator

You can setup whatever you like and it's fine with me. Let me know if you need any help.

@Red Baker
In the morning, I will answer ~ no problem.

@civic
I’m willing to defend the eternal Son side :)

@Red Baker

In his Deity AS GOD, he created all things. No problem, by separating Jesus' complex nature.

You said: "irrefutable proof that Jesus was before creation."

Jesus as the Son of God was conceived and born around two thousand years ago, we have the record of his birth recorded for us in Luke's gospel. God had no Son until then, only in his eternal purposes did he purpose to have a Son.
That is not scriptural but someone's opinion with no proof other than the Greek said so, and that does not count. I have more than once explain the meaning of Son and Father relationship to each other. This teaching destroys Jesus' Deity as God
It does not said anything close to that. John is simply stating the the Word was God without any qualifications. I can and will come back later and address John 1:1 in depth. I'm heading back to bed, I could not sleep so I got up, but now very shortly I'm heading.
Jesus was the God of Genesis 1:1, so yes in his Divine nature he was God. Even while on earth, he was IN HEAVEN as far as being God manifest in the flesh!
“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
Jesus was NOT the Word in the beginning, God was the Word, Jesus was the Son of God born in time.
One more time:

The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.

Please consider carefully: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time ~ Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation ~ therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity ~ is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.
I'm going to bed..I'll pick up here later. It is past 2:00 am

OKAY PEOPLE... LET THE GAMES BEGIN

AND KEEP IT ON TOPICE, PLEASE........................................................ IF NOT I ASK ADMIN TO DELETE THOSE POSTS.

📖 Christ, the Only-Begotten of the Father and Mediator of All Creation​


Scripture presents Christ as unique in His origin and as Mediator of all creation, always in subjection to the Father, and pointing to the final consummation.




1. Christ, the only One who proceeds directly from the Father​


  • Christ is called only-begotten (μονογενής, monogenēs), the only one born from the Father (Jn 1:14; Lk 1:35).
  • This distinguishes Him radically from all created things: He does not proceed as the creatures do, but directly from the Father.
  • His sonship is unique: no one else shares that relationship.



2. Everything else was created through the Son,​


  • John 1:3: “All things (πάντα, panta) were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.”
  • Colossians 1:16: “For in Him all things were created… all things have been created through Him and for Him.”
  • 1 Corinthians 8:6: “for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things (ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα), and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things (δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα).”
  • Hebrews 1:2: “Through the Son He also made the universe.”

👉 These statements cover everything without exception: matter, spiritual beings, invisible powers, and even space-time itself.
👉 The Father is the Source and Author, and the Son carries out creation as Mediator, by commission of the Father.




3. Implication: Christ is prior to space-time​


  • If “all things” were made through the Son, this includes:
    • Space (the heavens and the earth).
    • Time (Ἐν ἀρχῇ, en archē = “in the beginning”).
  • Christ was originated by the Father before space-time, and everything else —including time itself— was created through Him, by commission of the Father.
  • Therefore Christ may be called “eternal” in the biblical sense: not without origin like the Father, but prior to time, the mediating cause of all that exists.



4. “Only-begotten” and “Firstborn”​


  • Only-begotten: underlines His unique origin from the Father → only Christ proceeds directly from God.
  • Firstborn of all creation (Col 1:15): does not mean He is “one more creature,” but that He is first in rank and the mediating agent through whom all was made.
  • He is also:
    • Firstborn from the dead (Col 1:18): the first to rise to eternal life.
    • Firstborn among many brothers (Rom 8:29): the head of the new humanity.

👉 Both terms imply causality and derivation: the Father is prior as Source; the Son proceeds from Him; everything else proceeds from the Father through the Son, by the Father’s commission.




5. Kenosis: in Christ, not in the Father​


  • Here we must be careful: Scripture never says the Father “emptied Himself.”
  • First kenosis (metaphorical): it may be understood as the fact that the Son received His being from the Father before space-time, in total dependence on Him. It is not the Father who empties Himself, but in the Son the Father’s gift is expressed.
  • Second kenosis (historical): in the incarnation, the Son “emptied Himself” (ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν, heauton ekenōsen — Phil 2:6–7), taking the form of a servant and humbling Himself unto death on the cross.



6. Biblical warning​


  • We must not go beyond what is written.
  • Scripture reveals enough: the Father as the only Source, the Son as Mediator by the Father’s commission, the Spirit as the living action.
  • The hidden things remain in mystery: “The secret things belong to YHWH our God, but the things revealed belong to us” (Deut 29:29).



7. All things were created​


  • Colossians 1:16: “all things were created through Him and for Him.”
  • This means creation is His inheritance: the Father entrusts all things to the Son (Ps 2:8).
  • But this “for Him” does not end in Christ alone:
    • 1 Corinthians 15:24–28: the Son will hand over the Kingdom to the Father, so that God may be all in all.
    • Revelation 21:1: “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.”

👉 Thus, what was created for Christ is fulfilled in Him, and after the millennium opens into a new cosmic order, where God Himself is the fullness of all.




🔑 Conclusion​


  • Christ is the only one who proceeds directly from the Father.
  • Everything else, including space and time, was created through Him, by the Father’s commission.
  • As only-begotten, He expresses His unique origin; as firstborn, His supremacy over all creation and over the new humanity.
  • He is eternal in the biblical sense: prior to time, but dependent on the Father as Source.
  • All was created “for Him,” but after the millennium there will be a new arrangement: Christ will hand the Kingdom back to the Father, and the new creation will begin, where God will be all in all.

👉 In this way, we affirm the full divinity of Christ in function, as universal Mediator and heir of all things, always subject to the Father as the only Source and Author.
 
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