Dizerner
Active Member
Augustine completely renounced his pagan life.
Not that he was doctrinally perfect or anything.
My full defense of PSA
- Thread starter Dizerner
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Augustine completely renounced his pagan life.
Not that he was doctrinally perfect or anything.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
There are different requirements for different levels of sin.
Judgment of all sin doesn't require death. Even the law allowed for simple solutions to sin in restitution.
I try not to say anything without giving much thoughts to why I'm saying it.
Dizerner
Active Member
You're hilarious.
First you say, it never was my responsibility.
Then you say, I didn't do enough.
Lol!
It is not your call, fellow.
The truth has clearly been preached to you multiple times, in great clarity, including sincere intercession for your soul.
If you end up in hell, you have no one to blame but your own rebellion and pride.
Jesus paid the full price for sin on the Cross.
Reject or accept it.
And stop playing around.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Saying such things and actually doing them are entirely different things. Don't argue like this. It is obvious. He has knowledge that he blended with Christianity...or things he learned.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
It made an argument and then accepted your self stated obligation. I was answering your own claim. Not agreeing with you. You're not my arbitrator. Appealing to Ezekiel is self serving on your part.
I would like for you to get into the details of your claims you just made. Don't say "I've said enough" now....
Thank you for posting your view; however, I do not agree with it, and an anti PSA video has nothing to do with it.
There are verses that deny a transference of guilt from a father to a son
Ezekiel 18:20 (LEB) — 20 The person, the one sinning, will die. A son shall not bear the guilt of the father, and a father shall not bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be on him; the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.
Deuteronomy 24:16 (LEB) — 16 “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, and children shall not be put to death because of their fathers; each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
Jeremiah 31:29–30 (LEB) — 29 “In those days they will say no longer, ‘Parents have eaten unripe fruit, and the teeth of the children are set on edge.’ 30 But each will die because of his iniquity, everyone who eats the unripe fruit, their teeth will be set on edge.
Ezekiel 18:1–4 (LEB) — 1 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, 2 “What do you mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel, saying, ‘The fathers, they ate unripe fruit, and the teeth of the child became blunt.’ 3 As I live, declares the Lord Yahweh, it will surely not any longer be appropriate for you to quote this proverb in Israel! 4 Look! All lives are mine. The lives of father and son alike are mine. The person sinning will die.
2 Kings 14:6 (LEB) — 6 But the sons of the killers he did not kill, as it is written in the scroll of the law of Moses which Yahweh had commanded, saying, “Fathers should not be killed because of children, and children should not be killed because of fathers; but a man should die because of his own sin.”
civic
Active Member
For the readers here is a thread on the history and origin of PSA.
civic
Active Member
PSA is not the gospel
civic
Active Member
A
Amen
praise_yeshua
Active Member
This is definitely meaningful to the discussion of the transference of sin from father and mother to sons and daughters.
I will say this though....
The process of "shaping" a child in the womb begins soon after conception. What father's and mother's teach their children can either be accepted or rejected by the son or daughter. That goes from either side of this. Whether the rejection of good things or the rejection of bad things. The message of the Gospel and the clear teaching of the nature of God imparts a lasting impression upon the mind. It forces choices from all of humanity. I creates perspectives.
The doctrine of PSA is flawed in many ways because of the false sense of "justice" that came out of the supposed "Reformation". At least relative to our time/generations.
I really would be good to have a discussion on what "sin" actually is.
The sin that damns is more than just rebellion. It includes more than just acting contrary to what God desires. The sin that damns includes a much worse aspect of life. It involves decisions made in the process of living and growing.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Most Christians read the first part of that verse yet disconnect it from the last part of the verse. It isn't the fact that just any sin damns or condemns.
Paul is harkening back to how he started his letter.
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Notice the same root word. δόξα. (form is different). δόξα has several connotations that cover several similar but different words in the English language.
Most of the time the word chosen by translators is "Glory". However, most people see things different when it comes to what they view as being glorious.
Glory in the sense of the usage in Romans 1:21 and Romans 3:23 must include some sense of "esteem". Which more than just verbally praising someone. It is MORE than just bowing the knee. Esteem comes from the heart. It is reflection of what a person values.
I have more to say but this is a good start.
civic
Active Member
you hit the nail on the head since PSA is actually injustice- the guilty get off unpunished and the innocent is punished. Just the opposite of the justice system.
Like I said in the other thread on PSA I will say it here in this one too:
I will go on record saying the following with full conviction I'm 100% correct.
PSA basically teaches that God doesn’t save us from sin or from death. But instead God saves us from himself. And he does in by punishing himself since Jesus is God. There is no justice in PSA for the guilty was not punished, but the innocent. That by definition is injustice. PSA is a theological pretzel, a mess.
Those who believe in the heretical doctrine of PSA do not understand the Tri-Unity of God. No matter how much they will deny that fact its true. PSA teaches a fracture Trinity, a separation of the Godhead. A Dis-Unity of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. An angry god pouring out his vengeance, anger, retribution on his own son- that is pure paganism, greek philosophy, idolatry, gnosticism at its very core. It is anti god, anti-christ, anti-biblical, anti-christian. PSA is a theological stronghold.
And many have the audacity to say its the gospel. PUKE.
2 Corinthians 10:3-5
For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
hope this helps !!!
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civic
Active Member
yet his beliefs came from them and he held to those doctrines never renouncing them.
Another issue with PSA is the doctrine all that are born are born dead.
but according to scripture
Romans 7:9 (LEB) — 9 And I was alive once, apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life
James 1:13–15 (LEB) — 13 No one who is being tempted should say, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desires. 15 Then desire, after it has conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is brought to completion, gives birth to death.
Are we born “DEAD” according to James? Or is DEATH birthed in those who sin after its “full grown?” What did Paul say?
“What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.” – Romans 7:7-11
Are we born “DEAD” according to Paul? Or was it through the commandment, after “sin sprang to life” that DEATH came?
Bible note
civic
Active Member
yes that originated with Augustine via paganism, greek philosophy and gnosticism.
people willingly remain ignorant as to the origin of the doctrines they espouse and turn a blind eye to them, its a stronghold as sethproton use to say all of the time and he was right. allthough I never admitted that back then and would accuse him of having the stronghold lol.
Truth
civic
Active Member
yes indeed
From the book Crushing the Great Serpent.
If Christ atoned for the sins of mankind, and God satisfied His wrath on Jesus, would this not result in universalism? That God satisfied His wrath over all mankind? That everyone is saved? Logically, it would. Since it is obvious that not every person becomes a Christian and God’s wrath is still present, this forced the Reformers to create a new solution: limit the penal substitutionary atonement to the elect alone. This is one of the two major pillars by which PSA was justified. The second pillar on which PSA is built is Augustine’s view of Original Sin, which was later adopted and popularized by the Reformers (who also developed PSA).[95] This stems from a misunderstanding of Romans 5, where it is believed mankind not only suffers the consequences of a fallen world from Adam, but rather that mankind inherits Adam’s sin, his consequences, and his guilt.[96] This means when Adam sinned, his guilt and his sin was transferred and imputed to all his descendants and, therefore, every single one of us have inherited the guilt of Adam before us and are born equally guilty. This view has become increasingly controversial in the church today due to its many connotations and hermeneutical problems.[97] Dr. Craig perfectly demonstrates my point for me in showing how Augustinian Original Sin and the doctrine of PSA are closely related while simultaneously making an unhelpful distinction regarding transference and imputation: “...the defender of the doctrine of imputation does not hold that when my guilt is imputed to Christ, it is thereby removed from me. Guilt is merely replicated in Christ, just as, according to the doctrine of original sin, Adam’s guilt was replicated in me, not transferred from Adam to me.”[98] Although I understand the distinction Craig is trying to make, the concept of “replication” bears no practical difference to the concept of “transference”. I say this, because it is still taking the sin from one person and putting it unto another. If I were to take the words from this document, copy and paste them to another document, then it is duplicated (i.e.: replicated) and therefore still transferred to another. Thus, it is a distinction without any practical difference.[99] The result of the fall is Adam’s sin being transferred from generation to generation through intercourse, making mankind born in a sinful state. This has problematic implications on the nature of infants, sexual relationships, and God’s command to populate the earth.[100] Regardless, on this view babies themselves are born evil and wicked, or as Voddie Baucham called them, a “viper in a diaper”. He goes so far as to say that those who do not believe in this view of Original Sin do not have children, as he cannot fathom anyone seeing children as anything but wicked sinners.[101]
Hess, William. Crushing the Great Serpent: Did God Punish Jesus? (pp. 66-68). Kindle Edition.
civic
Active Member
Excellent, thanks !!!
