Moses and Jesus taught free will

[Theophilus]

it occurs to me that you never really understood what Calvinism teaches, or at least, that you missed many of the implications, or attributed false implications, to what Calvinism teaches. I can only guess what you are trying to say here, and your reasoning as to why these verses argue against Calvinism. I'm guessing, in Chronicles you think Calvinism would say that God does not grant requests. In the other three, I can only guess that you think Calvinism implies that God does not deliver from evil. Not so.

See there it is right there. Their favorite two lines.

You don't understand Calvinism. And it's a mystery that has to be guessed.

 

[civic]

It is the "logical" alternative to viewing all of God's attributes.
Those that advocate for "Universalism", as an example, tend to see a 'god' of only LOVE where all roads lead to heaven, which is not the God of scripture.

You COULD have chosen to respond to my questions about God's other attributes instead of taking a shot at calvinism (although it was a funny shot).
They were an honest question. Does it matter that God's love is also a HOLY LOVE? and a JUST LOVE?
Does it matter that God's JUSTICE is equally HOLY and LOVING?

See, God cannot be just one thing and turn off his other innate attributes. HE is those things ... they exist because they come from HIM. God cannot stop being GOD, or being less GOD in some aspect.

So what is HOLY LOVE?
What is JUST LOVE?
What is ETERNAL LOVE?
What is UNCHANGING LOVE?
What is HOLY JUST ETERNAL UNCHANGING LOVE?

What are the other attributes of God?

There was no justice before creation, this is another fallacy. There was no sovereignty before creation which is another fallacy, there was no wrath before creation another fallacy- But there was Love before creation between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit which IS AN INNATE attribute unlike the other mentioned which have to de with creation and the fall of man.

No wonder you do not want to debate me on the Trinity.

see below

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/god-is-love-theology-101.1022/#post-32700

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

See there it is right there. Their favorite two lines.

You don't understand Calvinism. And it's a mystery that has to be guessed.

calvin pleads to mystery often in his writings when he saw his own doctrines were in conflict with scripture. if he were to face them then he would have to deny his own teachings on deteminism, double predestination etc......

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

It is the "logical" alternative to viewing all of God's attributes.
Those that advocate for "Universalism", as an example, tend to see a 'god' of only LOVE where all roads lead to heaven, which is not the God of scripture.

You COULD have chosen to respond to my questions about God's other attributes instead of taking a shot at calvinism (although it was a funny shot).
They were an honest question. Does it matter that God's love is also a HOLY LOVE? and a JUST LOVE?
Does it matter that God's JUSTICE is equally HOLY and LOVING?

See, God cannot be just one thing and turn off his other innate attributes. HE is those things ... they exist because they come from HIM. God cannot stop being GOD, or being less GOD in some aspect.

So what is HOLY LOVE?
What is JUST LOVE?
What is ETERNAL LOVE?
What is UNCHANGING LOVE?
What is HOLY JUST ETERNAL UNCHANGING LOVE?

What are the other attributes of God?

In case nobody answers...

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Wrath
Power
Patience
Glory
Mercy

Those are some of God's attributes. There are others, obviously. Knowing God means more than just knowing God's love.

 

[makesends]

False nonsense. You don't believe that about yourself. Your theology betrays you. You believe you are specially chosen by God and those who "love others more than themselves" are not specifically chosen by God.

Purposeful misrepresentation of what I believe.

AH.... but YOU claim to know God because God has chosen you.... How nice. Must be wonderful being so special. How do you feel being so privilege while believing "God has passed over"

I barely know God.

I've seen this from "snobs" my entire life. They talk of how they are just like everyone else while they claim and participate in every that include the qualities life. Many Calvinists have a "snobbish" theology.

You will be measured by your own standard, by which you measure others. Just as I will be by my standard.

See how self centered this is when you claim it for yourself while the you're happy those "less fortunate" than you are destined for damnation?

You continue to flame me —not debate. I think we are done.

 

[civic]

In case nobody answers...

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Wrath
Mercy

Those are some of God's attributes. There are others, obviously. Knowing God means more than just knowing God's love.

Those are Gods attributes ( wrath, mercy ) in relation to the fall of man. There was no wrath of mercy prior to creation.

see below

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/god-is-love-theology-101.1022/#post-32700

 

[makesends]

Well we know the WCF says this. But that doesn't mean it's right. It has all the appearance of double talk.

Yes, to the self-determinist it does sound that way.

 

[atpollard]

There was no justice before creation, this is another fallacy. There was no sovereignty before creation which is another fallacy, there was no wrath before creation another fallacy- But there was Love before creation between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit which IS AN INNATE attribute unlike the other mentioned which have to de with creation and the fall of man.

Is God "unchanging"?

 

[civic]

Is God "unchanging"?

Where was there wrath within the Trinity before creation, prior to anything existing. Please explain. Where was the Justice between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit before creation ?

But we know there was Love between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit for God is love.

I rest my case and all the skeptics questions asked will not change those facts regarding Gods INNATE ATTRIBUTES.

Theology is the study of God and has nothing to do with man. Anthropology is the study of man.

You are conflating them. Try and stay on topic.

We are discussing God, not man.

These are Gods Innate Attributes apart from creation. Who God is within His own Being as Father, Son and Holy Spirit

1-Aseity- Self Sufficient
2-Eternal
3-Omnipresent
4-Omnipotent
5-Omniscient
6-Love
7-Holy
8-Immutable
9-Perichoresis
10-God is One- Unity within the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
11- Infinite
12- Transcendent
13- Humility
14- Good
15- Glorious

hope this helps !!!

 

[atpollard]

It exposes your fallacy again. Please demonstrate Jesus was refereeing to anyone else besides the 12 ( His sheep ) and the pharisees ( not His sheep ).

John 6
Some time after this, Jesus crossed to the far shore of the Sea of Galilee (that is, the Sea of Tiberias), 2 and a great crowd of people followed him because they saw the signs he had performed by healing the sick. 3 Then Jesus went up on a mountainside and sat down with his disciples. 4 The Jewish Passover Festival was near.

5 When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip, “Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?” 6 He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do.

7 Philip answered him, “It would take more than half a year’s wages[a] to buy enough bread for each one to have a bite!”

8 Another of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, spoke up, 9 “Here is a boy with five small barley loaves and two small fish, but how far will they go among so many?”

10 Jesus said, “Have the people sit down.” There was plenty of grass in that place, and they sat down (about five thousand men were there). 11 Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish.

12 When they had all had enough to eat, he said to his disciples, “Gather the pieces that are left over. Let nothing be wasted.” 13 So they gathered them and filled twelve baskets with the pieces of the five barley loaves left over by those who had eaten.

14 After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.” 15 Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.

​

16 When evening came, his disciples went down to the lake, 17 where they got into a boat and set off across the lake for Capernaum. By now it was dark, and Jesus had not yet joined them. 18 A strong wind was blowing and the waters grew rough. 19 When they had rowed about three or four miles,[b] they saw Jesus approaching the boat, walking on the water; and they were frightened. 20 But he said to them, “It is I; don’t be afraid.” 21 Then they were willing to take him into the boat, and immediately the boat reached the shore where they were heading.

22 The next day the crowd that had stayed on the opposite shore of the lake realized that only one boat had been there, and that Jesus had not entered it with his disciples, but that they had gone away alone. 23 Then some boats from Tiberias landed near the place where the people had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. 24 Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus.

25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

​

60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Just for the record, we can safely disregard all of John 6 as nothing but a Historic curiosity about 12 dead people that has no lessons for those living today ... we EARN our salvation by CHOOSING TO BELIEVE (but not John 6).

I just wanted to make sure I understood your position.

 

[makesends]

Well we can sure hope he did. He did seek to honor Christ in different ways in the coming days but we don't know. My point was Jesus tried to get all of them to believe by providing his natural analogy (the direction of the wind) . And he said to Nicodemus also and yet you people do not accept our testimony He wanted them to or he wouldn't have tried to explain it to them.

Ok, let's say, for the sake of argument, that Jesus did "try". My opinion is that Jesus operated by his human nature. He put aside his "God-ness", and depended on the Father. He did not hold all fact in his conscious mind.

Meanwhile, whether or not he did "try", we have the witness of scripture, and the product of reason, that GOD does even plead with people, give them time to repent, and so on, for at least 4 purposes: To demonstrate their rebellion and utter deserving of perdition, to give them no excuse, to demonstrate his patience, and, for some, to further harden their hearts.

 

[atpollard]

Where was there wrath within the Trinity before creation, prior to anything existing. Please explain. Where was the Justice between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit before creation ?

But we know there was Love between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit for God is love.

I rest my case and all the skeptics questions asked will not change those facts regarding Gods INNATE ATTRIBUTES.

Theology is the study of God and has nothing to do with man. Anthropology is the study of man.

You are conflating them. Try and stay on topic.

We are discussing God, not man.

hope this helps !!!

Was that YES, God is unchanging, or NO, God changed?
I honestly cannot tell from your response.

 

[civic]

Just for the record, we can safely disregard all of John 6 as nothing but a Historic curiosity about 12 dead people that has no lessons for those living today ... we EARN our salvation by CHOOSING TO BELIEVE (but not John 6).

I just wanted to make sure I understood your position.

more nonsense- prove John 6 applies to anyone outside of the 12- His disciples.

I challenged you so don't go and shift the burden of proof to me. You made the claims and I challenged you to prove it.

You cannot which is why you are now questioning me and deflecting.

hope this helps !!!

 

[makesends]

At face value Jesus is only talking to the 12- context is king and down goes tulip. Jesus called the 12, His sheep who literally heard His voice.

You have never seen Jesus nor heard His voice.

"No one can come to Me" [Total Inability of the 12]
"unless the Father who sent Me" [Unconditional Election of the 12]
"draws him;" [Irresistible Grace of the 12 ]
"and I will raise him up on the last day." [Preservation of the Saints -the 12 ]
- John 6:44

hope this helps !!!

If this reference is wrongly used by Calvinists to apply to all those to whom God shows mercy, but does show it true for the 12, it does not defeat TULIP. In fact, it only shows that TULIP applied to [at least] the 12.

 

[makesends]

The Bible was given to us out of God's love for us so that we could know him better. Also as far as what we can know about God's love Jesus gives us the answer. He said if you've seen me you've seen the father. What did Jesus do during his three-year minister? He went around loving and healing broken people. That's just how good and loving he is.

He also died for those to whom God showed mercy. So far we are going way past "no need to say more".

 

[makesends]

We are talking about determining everything beforehand that happens ( the WCF ) says everything that comes tom pass is ordained by God which contradicts all the passages I posted.

I can see how you think it contradicts the Jeremiah passages, though I disagree. You did not demonstrate or explain how it contradicts the rest.

 

[civic]

If this reference is wrongly used by Calvinists to apply to all those to whom God shows mercy, but does show it true for the 12, it does not defeat TULIP. In fact, it only shows that TULIP applied to [at least] the 12.

On that we can agree. The context is the 12 not everyone in John 6. So in the context of John 6 we can agree.

But there is still one problem with the chosen/elect in that passage. the trump card- judas.

 

[civic]

I can see how you think it contradicts the Jeremiah passages, though I disagree. You did not demonstrate or explain how it contradicts the rest.

Those passages show God never planned those sins to occur.

 

[makesends]

See there it is right there. Their favorite two lines.

You don't understand Calvinism. And it's a mystery that has to be guessed.

WHAT is a mystery that has to be guessed —what people think, that disagree with Calvinism?

I never said that Calvinism is a mystery, nor that it has to be guessed.

By the way, just so you know, I don't myself really identify as a Calvinist. They just agree with me on most points.

 

[makesends]

On that we can agree. The context is the 12 not everyone in John 6. So in the context of John 6 we can agree.

But there is still one problem with the chosen/elect in that passage. the trump card- judas.

There is another specific choosing —and maybe a representation of the notion of predestination to perdition. Christ did not say that he was given to him for salvation.