Moses and Jesus taught free will

How can we as Christian escape the text, “God is love”? But if we use this text we have said it all, for the text is so all-inclusive, so final, that it leaves nothing to be said.
Oh, Great! So I can discard the rest of the Bible as useless?

Who are we to make such statements? What do we know about the nature of the infinite love of God? We are mere creatures, ignorant, short-sighted, self-centered, fickle, and self-serving. We hardly know God at all. "Our" faith by which we know and love God isn't even ours, but is done in us by God. We must NOT build our theology on our notions of love.

It is not because love is best, that God is love. Love is what it is, because God is love —not the other way around.
 
That serves as an indication of what free will is. It does not show that Calvinism is wrong.

Westminster Confession of Faith, chapter 3: 1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

Free will chooses. But it is not autonomous.
These passages alone should tell you the WCF is 100% wrong with God ordaining, predestining, determining everything that comes to pass is wrong.

Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Hinnom so they could burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I never commanded, nor did it even enter My mind.

Jeremiah 19:5
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

Jeremiah 32:35
They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin
God does not cause anyone to sin nor tempt anyone to sin or do evil.

God delivers from evil not causes it .

James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.

1 Chronicles 4:10
And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.

Psalm 121:7,8
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul…

Jeremiah 15:21
And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.

Matthew 6
Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father, who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
 
And lets add Jesus to that same victim list
Let's not ...

John 10:17-18 [NASB]
"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it back. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it back. This commandment I received from My Father."

Matthew 26:51-56 [NASB]
And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his ear. Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? How then would the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?"
At that time Jesus said to the crowds, "Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me as you would against a man inciting a revolt? Every day I used to sit within the temple grounds teaching, and you did not arrest Me. But all this has taken place so that the Scriptures of the prophets will be fulfilled." Then all the disciples left Him and fled.

Mark 14:48-49 [NASB]
And Jesus said to them, "Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me, as you would against a man inciting a revolt? Every day I was with you within the temple grounds teaching, and you did not arrest Me; but this has taken place so that the Scriptures will be fulfilled."

Luke 22:49-53 [NASB]
When those who were around Him saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?" And one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus responded and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him. And Jesus said to the chief priests and officers of the temple and elders who had come against Him, "Have you come out with swords and clubs as [you would] against a man inciting a revolt? While I was with you daily in the temple, you did not lay hands on Me; but this hour and the power of darkness are yours."

John 18:4-11 [NASB]
Jesus therefore, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, came out into the open and said to them, "Whom are you seeking?" They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He said to them, "I am [He.]" And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them. Now then, when He said to them, "I am [He,]" they drew back and fell to the ground. He then asked them again, "Whom are you seeking?" And they said, "Jesus the Nazarene." Jesus answered, "I told you that I am [He;] so if you are seeking Me, let these men go on their way." This took place so that the word which He spoke would be fulfilled: "Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one." Then Simon Peter, since he had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus. So Jesus said to Peter, "Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, am I not to drink it?"
 
How can we as Christian escape the text, “God is love”? But if we use this text we have said it all, for the text is so all-inclusive, so final, that it leaves nothing to be said.
Is that God's only attribute?
God's attributes do not come and go, they are "active" all of the time because HE defines THEM.

So God's LOVE is a HOLY LOVE.
God's HOLINESS is a LOVING HOLINESS.

What other attributes of God are always active?

(or do you worship a god-shaped idol, made by man, that is only "LOVE" and discards all the other attributes that you don't like? ... some people do.)
 
Let's not ...

John 10:17-18 [NASB]
"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it back. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it back. This commandment I received from My Father."

Matthew 26:51-56 [NASB]
And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his ear. Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? How then would the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?"
At that time Jesus said to the crowds, "Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me as you would against a man inciting a revolt? Every day I used to sit within the temple grounds teaching, and you did not arrest Me. But all this has taken place so that the Scriptures of the prophets will be fulfilled." Then all the disciples left Him and fled.

Mark 14:48-49 [NASB]
And Jesus said to them, "Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me, as you would against a man inciting a revolt? Every day I was with you within the temple grounds teaching, and you did not arrest Me; but this has taken place so that the Scriptures will be fulfilled."

Luke 22:49-53 [NASB]
When those who were around Him saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?" And one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus responded and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him. And Jesus said to the chief priests and officers of the temple and elders who had come against Him, "Have you come out with swords and clubs as [you would] against a man inciting a revolt? While I was with you daily in the temple, you did not lay hands on Me; but this hour and the power of darkness are yours."

John 18:4-11 [NASB]
Jesus therefore, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, came out into the open and said to them, "Whom are you seeking?" They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He said to them, "I am [He.]" And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them. Now then, when He said to them, "I am [He,]" they drew back and fell to the ground. He then asked them again, "Whom are you seeking?" And they said, "Jesus the Nazarene." Jesus answered, "I told you that I am [He;] so if you are seeking Me, let these men go on their way." This took place so that the word which He spoke would be fulfilled: "Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one." Then Simon Peter, since he had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus. So Jesus said to Peter, "Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, am I not to drink it?"
Jesus bearing God's “cup of wrath” and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in Scripture.

A Biblical lesson on the cup from Jesus Himself as taught in Scripture- not calvinisms indoctrination.



In Matthew 26:39, Jesus says, "If it be your will, let this cup pass from me." Jesus tells us precisely what the cup was. It was the cup of his suffering, which meant that He would die an agonizing death as a martyr. In the passage below, Jesus told His disciples that they would also drink of the same "cup":

Matthew 20:17-
Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. 21 “What is it you want?” he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?” “We can,” they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

1Thessalonians 5:9-For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

As we see above it was not the cup of wrath Jesus was speaking about but it was the suffering He was going to have to endure for our sins. God has not appointed us to wrath and the cup means the suffering of Jesus and that the disciples would also suffer death as martyrs. In fact, many scriptures testify that believers too will suffer persecution for being a follower of Jesus. Suffering persecution is a promise for a believer who follows Jesus, it is something we should expect to happen in our life.

2 Timothy 3:12- Yes, and everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

John 15:20 Remember the word that I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well; if they kept My word, they will keep yours as well.

Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

2 Corinthians 4:9- persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.

Wrath from God is not required for the forgiveness of sins, that is a misnomer.

Exodus 34:6
Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in faithfulness and truth;

Isaiah 48:9 For the sake of My name I will delay My wrath; for the sake of My praise I will restrain it, so that you will not be cut off.


Psalm 78:38 And yet He was compassionate; He forgave their iniquity and did not destroy them. He often restrained His anger and did not unleash His full wrath.

Psalm 85:1-3 You, Lord, showed favor to your land;you restored the fortunes of Jacob.2 You forgave the iniquity of your people and covered all their sins. 3 You set aside all your wrath and turned from your fierce anger.

hope this helps !!!
 
Is that God's only attribute?
God's attributes do not come and go, they are "active" all of the time because HE defines THEM.

So God's LOVE is a HOLY LOVE.
God's HOLINESS is a LOVING HOLINESS.

What other attributes of God are always active?

(or do you worship a god-shaped idol, made by man, that is only "LOVE" and discards all the other attributes that you don't like? ... some people do.)
Its His primary one as God was /is love before there was any creation. We call this the Tri- Unity. God as Triune is Love.

Theology 101. Theology ( the study of God )begins with who God is at His core Being. I have yet to meet a single calvinist on any forum that will debate the Trinity with me to defend their calvinist beliefs.

Are you up for the debate ?


next........
 
Oh, Great! So I can discard the rest of the Bible as useless?

Who are we to make such statements? What do we know about the nature of the infinite love of God? We are mere creatures, ignorant, short-sighted, self-centered, fickle, and self-serving.

False nonsense. You don't believe that about yourself. Your theology betrays you. You believe you are specially chosen by God and those who "love others more than themselves" are not specifically chosen by God.

We hardly know God at all. "Our" faith by which we know and love God isn't even ours, but is done in us by God. We must NOT build our theology on our notions of love.

AH.... but YOU claim to know God because God has chosen you.... How nice. Must be wonderful being so special. How do you feel being so privilege while believing "God has passed over"

I've seen this from "snobs" my entire life. They talk of how they are just like everyone else while they claim and participate in every that include the qualities life. Many Calvinists have a "snobbish" theology.

It is not because love is best, that God is love. Love is what it is, because God is love —not the other way around.

See how self centered this is when you claim it for yourself while the you're happy those "less fortunate" than you are destined for damnation?
 
Is that God's only attribute?
God's attributes do not come and go, they are "active" all of the time because HE defines THEM.

So God's LOVE is a HOLY LOVE.
God's HOLINESS is a LOVING HOLINESS.

What other attributes of God are always active?

(or do you worship a god-shaped idol, made by man, that is only "LOVE" and discards all the other attributes that you don't like? ... some people do.)

What is "Holy" about the love you describe that God has?

If you're guilty then you have no right to claim privilege.
 
Lets put on our thinking caps here and use a little common sense.
1 Corinthians 1
18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written:

“I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE UNDERSTANDING OF THOSE WHO HAVE UNDERSTANDING, I WILL CONFOUND.”
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has God not made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than mankind, and the weakness of God is stronger than mankind.

According to SCRIPTURE ... "putting on our thinking caps and using common sense" to reject the foolishness of God is a bad plan.
 
1 Corinthians 1
18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written:

“I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE UNDERSTANDING OF THOSE WHO HAVE UNDERSTANDING, I WILL CONFOUND.”
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has God not made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than mankind, and the weakness of God is stronger than mankind.

According to SCRIPTURE ... "putting on our thinking caps and using common sense" to reject the foolishness of God is a bad plan.

Then you don't understand it either......

Notice I will destroy the wisdom of the wise....

You claim you're wise..... Where does that leave you?????

Again. More empty claims to privilege.
 
Jesus bearing God's “cup of wrath” and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in Scripture.
Neither is Jesus being a victim.
(Read those scriptures again.)

Christus Victor ... Jesus did what HE set out to do.
 
Then you don't understand it either......

Notice I will destroy the wisdom of the wise....

You claim you're wise..... Where does that leave you?????

Again. More empty claims to privilege.
yes equivocating again and once again RIPPED from its context. Paul goes onto referring the the same ones ( believers ) in chapter 2 as natural/carnal- babes.
 
Are you up for the debate ?
I cannot get you to engage in a "CONVERSATION" ... so much so that I changed my Avatar, Signature and purpose on BAM from "fellowship" to "defending the Faith".
What chance would a debate stand if a conversation cannot be engaged?

I pass on the invitation.
Debating TRINITY will not defend the truth of scripture found in the Doctrines of Grace and the 5 Solas (we are both TRINITARIANS).
 
I cannot get you to engage in a "CONVERSATION" ... so much so that I changed my Avatar, Signature and purpose on BAM from "fellowship" to "defending the Faith".
What chance would a debate stand if a conversation cannot be engaged?

I pass on the invitation.
Debating TRINITY will not defend the truth of scripture found in the Doctrines of Grace and the 5 Solas (we are both TRINITARIANS).
It will expose every error with calvinism. Its all based upon a wrong Theology ( Study of God ) AT ITS VERY FOUNDATION. When one is wrong about God it filters down through every single doctrine.

hope this helps !!!
 
That serves as an indication of what free will is. It does not show that Calvinism is wrong.

Westminster Confession of Faith, chapter 3: 1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
Well we know the WCF says this. But that doesn't mean it's right. It has all the appearance of double talk.

 
Not according to HIM (John 10:17-18).
(Yes, He was innocent; No, He was not a victim.)
Is the murder of an innocent person a victim of a crime ? yes or no

And take off your calvinist lens for just a second and give an honest answer to the question. Is that an impossible request ?
 
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