Moses and Jesus taught free will

I cannot get you to engage in a "CONVERSATION" ... so much so that I changed my Avatar, Signature and purpose on BAM from "fellowship" to "defending the Faith".
What chance would a debate stand if a conversation cannot be engaged?

I pass on the invitation.
Debating TRINITY will not defend the truth of scripture found in the Doctrines of Grace and the 5 Solas (we are both TRINITARIANS).
This is for the other members and guests at BAM.

The word Theology refers to the study of God, and God is Triune, a Trinity- Tri-Unity. All doctrine begins with God at its starting point. God’s innate attributes are Aseity (God is self-sufficient), Infinite (without limit), Eternal (God has no beginning or end, he is timeless), Immutable (God is unchanging), Love (God is love), Holy (God is set-apart), Perichoresis (the indwelling of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). Divine Simplicity states God is Love because He is Love, not because He possesses that quality. God is the center of all the Divine Attributes. They point to His Being. God is not distinct from His nature.

God is Love. In love, the Father sent the Son on our behalf to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. We Love because He first loved us and sent His Son as 1 John 4:19 tells us.

We must understand how God's attributes all work in harmony together, not in opposition to each other. God's attributes and character flow from His love—for God is love.

God being love has nothing to do with His creation. That is secondary. God is love, and that love is perfect, lacking nothing within His Triune nature as God. Love, by definition, has to be expressed with another, which is why a unitarian god cannot be love. Love requires another to share and express that love, and it is what we see with the Triune God. God is love before anyone/anything existed.

Before creation, there was no sin. There was no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, and justice. Why? Because those are God's secondary attributes concerning the creation and the fall. God's love is a primary attribute, like Holy is a primary one. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes, which were not in use until the creation and the fall.

Let’s examine how this works in conjunction with Gods sovereignty and His love. God is sovereign and also love. Both sovereignty and love as they intersect with God have been revealed plainly to us by God in His word. He has done this both through his word and his works. And God has sworn never to change for He is Immutable.

God's sovereignty is never exercised in violation of his love. His love is very everlasting, for God is love. The love of God has not the slightest shadow of variation, and it, not his sovereignty, is the basis upon which his moral standards rest. Any promotion of any doctrine that represents God as acting in a way that violates his love appealing to the fact that He is sovereign is found nowhere in the pages of scripture.

The fact that God can do something is not a justification for Him doing it. The fact that God can damn everyone without a reason is not an argument for justifying teaching that he does as in the Calvinist doctrine of double predestination. All that He can do is restricted by the standard that God values most which is His love. If it will violate love, God will not and cannot do it for that would be contrary to His nature and character as a loving God. And if it will violate love then it is not right. God cannot make it right by doing it just because He is sovereign. If God does it just because He is sovereign then He would not be God but something else.

What makes God, God is so intricately bound to his intent for doing things that if He were to do a thing just by virtue of the fact that He is sovereign and can do it rather than by virtue of the fact that it is loving? He would not be God as we know Him but something else. If sovereignty is what defines what makes up love in such a way that God doing anything is what defines love, then love has no meaning and can be anything and everything it is and opposes any time, which is ridiculous.

This below is from the Calvinist Theologian Abraham Kuyper on God is love:

“Before God created heaven and earth with all their inhabitants, the eternal Love of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit shone with unseen splendor in the divine Being. Love exists, not for the sake of the world, but for God's sake; and when the world came into existence, Love remained unchanged; and if every creature were to disappear, it would remain just as rich and glorious as ever. Love exists and works in the Eternal Being apart from the creature; and its radiation upon the, creature is but a feeble reflection of its being.

Love is not God, but God is Love; and He is sufficient to Himself to love absolutely and forever. He has no need of the creature, and the exercise of His Love did not begin with the creature whom He could love, but it flows and springs eternally in the Love-life of the Triune God. God is Love; its perfection, divine beauty, real dimensions, and holiness are not found in men, not even in the best of God's children, but scintillate only around the Throne of God.

The unity of Love with the Confession of the Trinity is the starting-point from which we proceed to base Love independently in God, absolutely independent of the creature or anything creaturely. This is not to make the divine Trinity a philosophic deduction from essential love. That is unlawful; if God had not revealed this mystery in His Word we should be totally ignorant of it. But since the Scripture puts the Triune Being before us as the Object of our adoration, and upon almost every page most highly exalts the mutual Love of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and delineates it as an Eternal Love, we know and plainly see that this holy Love may never be represented but as springing from the mutual love of the divine Persons.

Hence through the mystery of the Trinity, the Love which is in God and is God obtains its independent existence, apart from the creature, independent of the emotions of mind and heart; and it rises as a sun, with its own fire and rays, outside of man, in God, in whom it rests and from whom it radiates.

In this way we eradicate every comparison of the Love of God with our love. In this way the false mingling ceases. In principle we resist the reversing of positions whereby arrogant man had succeeded in copying from himself a so-called God of Love, and into silencing all adoration. In this way the soul returns to the blessed confession that God is Love, and the way of divine mercy and pity is opened whereby the brightness of that Sun can radiate in a human way, i.e., in a finite and imperfect manner to and in the human heart, to the praise of God. “From his book on the Work of the Holy Spirit Volume 3, Second Chapter Love- xviii Love in the Triune Being of God “

God can do anything and everything is what sovereignty means by definition. God will only do what is loving and what is righteousness. Righteousness is the foundation of his throne. In other words, righteousness is the constraint of his sovereign rule. Love is how God rules His creation. Sovereignty, Righteousness, Justice, Mercy and all the other attributes of God fall under the umbrella of His love. God being love is foundational to Gods nature, character, the gospel and the entire purpose for Christs 1st Coming. John 3:16. God rules by His love. The question we need to be asking ourselves is this, how does our Sovereign God display His love in conjunction with His rule over mankind?

hope this helps !!!
 
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What's to say that Nicodemus didn't believe, before he died?
Well we can sure hope he did. He did seek to honor Christ in different ways in the coming days but we don't know. My point was Jesus tried to get all of them to believe by providing his natural analogy (the direction of the wind) . And he said to Nicodemus also and yet you people do not accept our testimony He wanted them to or he wouldn't have tried to explain it to them.
 
When one is wrong about God it filters down through every single doctrine.
Let's take that at face value:
  • Total Inability [wrong]: Man IS able to save himself ... Pelagianism.
  • Unconditional Election [wrong]: God saves only those that DO deserve it because of personal merit ... You DO have something to boast about and "salvation" is a wage rather than a gift.
  • Limited Atonement [wrong]: Every sin for every person (without exception) was fully atoned for on the cross ... God cannot condemn anyone without committing the injustice of punishing the same sin TWICE ... Universalism or an Unjust God.
  • Irresistible Grace [wrong]: God does not draw to the Son irresistibly, the Creator stands on a street corner begging his creation to come to Him ... God is a BAD SHEPHERD that abandons His foolish sheep to their own fate.
  • Preservation of the Saints [wrong]: God cannot guarantee that ANYONE will actually be glorified or enter into Heaven. Your eternal destiny is in your hands, not God's hands ... you are one slip away from ETERNAL DAMNATION and God is powerless to do anything about it, Better hope you achieve sinless perfection before death, or there are no GUARANTEES!
That is quite a God you have there!
Good luck with that (I will stick with the God of scripture):

"No one can come to Me" [Total Inability]
"unless the Father who sent Me" [Unconditional Election]
"draws him;" [Irresistible Grace]
"and I will raise him up on the last day." [Preservation of the Saints]
- John 6:44
 
Let's take that at face value:

"No one can come to Me" [Total Inability]
"unless the Father who sent Me" [Unconditional Election]
"draws him;" [Irresistible Grace]
"and I will raise him up on the last day." [Preservation of the Saints]
- John 6:44
At face value Jesus is only talking to the 12- context is king and down goes tulip. Jesus called the 12, His sheep who literally heard His voice.

You have never seen Jesus nor heard His voice.

"No one can come to Me" [Total Inability of the 12]
"unless the Father who sent Me" [Unconditional Election of the 12]
"draws him;" [Irresistible Grace of the 12 ]
"and I will raise him up on the last day." [Preservation of the Saints -the 12 ]
- John 6:44

hope this helps !!!
 
A valid question. I cannot speak for every human being that calls themselves a Calvinist
Good. I'm glad you acknowledge that. So I'd suggest you just keep thinking about it and I'm hopefully confident you'll eventually come to the only conclusion you can make. God wanted all men to believe and took actions in seeking to encourage all to do so. Yes that might take you to the place where you have to put Calvanism aside but embrace the courage to do so.

 
Is the murder of an innocent person a victim of a crime ? yes or no

And take off your calvinist lens for just a second and give an honest answer to the question. Is that an impossible request ?
What does JESUS (Son of God, Second person of the Trinity) say about it for Himself in John 10:17-18?
(Your Arminian Bible DOES have those verses, right?)

First, acknowledge JESUS words and then I will gladly engage in HUMAN speculation on your question.
 
What does JESUS (Son of God, Second person of the Trinity) say about it for Himself in John 10:17-18?
(Your Arminian Bible DOES have those verses, right?)

First, acknowledge JESUS words and then I will gladly engage in HUMAN speculation on your question.
As expected just the usual conflating of the two. Its called a false dichotomy fallacy. :). The fact is my question exposes your false premise which is why you ran away from answering it and posed a question to me. That is called evasion and dodging the question.
 
As expected just the usual conflating of the two. Its called a false dichotomy fallacy. :). The fact is my question exposes your false premise which is why you ran away from answering it and posed a question to me. That is called evasion and dodging the question.
So you REFUSE to acknowledge what Jesus said about himself.
Noted.

Then "neither will I answer you."
 
Oh, Great! So I can discard the rest of the Bible as useless?

Who are we to make such statements? What do we know about the nature of the infinite love of God? We are mere creatures, ignorant, short-sighted, self-centered, fickle, and self-serving. We hardly know God at all. "Our" faith by which we know and love God isn't even ours, but is done in us by God. We must NOT build our theology on our notions of love.

It is not because love is best, that God is love. Love is what it is, because God is love —not the other way around.
The Bible was given to us out of God's love for us so that we could know him better. Also as far as what we can know about God's love Jesus gives us the answer. He said if you've seen me you've seen the father. What did Jesus do during his three-year minister? He went around loving and healing broken people. That's just how good and loving he is.
 
Shall we go verse by verse through John 6 and see if any of it is for the saints living today?
how many times in John 6 is the phrase " His Disciples " used referring to the 12 ?

I rest my case but go ahead and attempt to make a case lol.

A hint- more than 15 times in John 6.

I rest my case.

hope this helps !!!
 
Good. I'm glad you acknowledge that. So I'd suggest you just keep thinking about it and I'm hopefully confident you'll eventually come to the only conclusion you can make. God wanted all men to believe and took actions in seeking to encourage all to do so. Yes that might take you to the place where you have to put Calvanism aside but embrace the courage to do so.
What is the point of responding to you if you then ignore the answer to your question?
 
So that is a "no"?
It exposes your fallacy again. Please demonstrate Jesus was refereeing to anyone else besides the 12 ( His sheep ) and the pharisees ( not His sheep ).

John 6
Some time after this, Jesus crossed to the far shore of the Sea of Galilee (that is, the Sea of Tiberias), 2 and a great crowd of people followed him because they saw the signs he had performed by healing the sick. 3 Then Jesus went up on a mountainside and sat down with his disciples. 4 The Jewish Passover Festival was near.

5 When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip, “Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?” 6 He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do.

7 Philip answered him, “It would take more than half a year’s wages[a] to buy enough bread for each one to have a bite!”

8 Another of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, spoke up, 9 “Here is a boy with five small barley loaves and two small fish, but how far will they go among so many?”

10 Jesus said, “Have the people sit down.” There was plenty of grass in that place, and they sat down (about five thousand men were there). 11 Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish.

12 When they had all had enough to eat, he said to his disciples, “Gather the pieces that are left over. Let nothing be wasted.” 13 So they gathered them and filled twelve baskets with the pieces of the five barley loaves left over by those who had eaten.

14 After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.” 15 Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.

16 When evening came, his disciples went down to the lake, 17 where they got into a boat and set off across the lake for Capernaum. By now it was dark, and Jesus had not yet joined them. 18 A strong wind was blowing and the waters grew rough. 19 When they had rowed about three or four miles,[b] they saw Jesus approaching the boat, walking on the water; and they were frightened. 20 But he said to them, “It is I; don’t be afraid.” 21 Then they were willing to take him into the boat, and immediately the boat reached the shore where they were heading.

22 The next day the crowd that had stayed on the opposite shore of the lake realized that only one boat had been there, and that Jesus had not entered it with his disciples, but that they had gone away alone. 23 Then some boats from Tiberias landed near the place where the people had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. 24 Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus.

25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
 
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These passages alone should tell you the WCF is 100% wrong with God ordaining, predestining, determining everything that comes to pass is wrong.

Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Hinnom so they could burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I never commanded, nor did it even enter My mind.

Jeremiah 19:5
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

Jeremiah 32:35
They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin
God does not cause anyone to sin nor tempt anyone to sin or do evil.

God delivers from evil not causes it .

James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.

1 Chronicles 4:10
And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.

Psalm 121:7,8
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul…

Jeremiah 15:21
And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.

Matthew 6
Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father, who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
And...:LOL: ....here we go again.

Jeremiah 7:31, (et alt references)
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Hinnom so they could burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I never commanded, nor did it even enter My mind.
It never entered his mind to command such a thing. Contextually, it makes no sense to mention his amazement that they would come up with something that he never knew about.


James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.

How does God ordaining all things imply that God is tempting anyone?



1 Chronicles 4:10
And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.

Psalm 121:7,8
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul…

Jeremiah 15:21
And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.

Matthew 6
Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father, who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

For the first time since the time you told me you had once been a Calvinist, it occurs to me that you never really understood what Calvinism teaches, or at least, that you missed many of the implications, or attributed false implications, to what Calvinism teaches. I can only guess what you are trying to say here, and your reasoning as to why these verses argue against Calvinism. I'm guessing, in Chronicles you think Calvinism would say that God does not grant requests. In the other three, I can only guess that you think Calvinism implies that God does not deliver from evil. Not so.
 
And...:LOL: ....here we go again.

Jeremiah 7:31, (et alt references)
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Hinnom so they could burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I never commanded, nor did it even enter My mind.
It never entered his mind to command such a thing. Contextually, it makes no sense to mention his amazement that they would come up with something that he never knew about.


James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.

How does God ordaining all things imply that God is tempting anyone?



1 Chronicles 4:10
And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.

Psalm 121:7,8
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul…

Jeremiah 15:21
And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.

Matthew 6
Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father, who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

For the first time since the time you told me you had once been a Calvinist, it occurs to me that you never really understood what Calvinism teaches, or at least, that you missed many of the implications, or attributed false implications, to what Calvinism teaches. I can only guess what you are trying to say here, and your reasoning as to why these verses argue against Calvinism. I'm guessing, in Chronicles you think Calvinism would say that God does not grant requests. In the other three, I can only guess that you think Calvinism implies that God does not deliver from evil. Not so.
We are talking about determining everything beforehand that happens ( the WCF ) says everything that comes tom pass is ordained by God which contradicts all the passages I posted.
 
What a loving remark, Oh wait a minute I forgot there is no love in Calvinism.
I haven't been able to find the loving communism. When they discuss the sincerity of God’s love for all people, they seems to distance themselves from the inevitable conclusions drawn by the implications of their own systematic. While attempting to maintain some semblance of divine love for those unconditionally rejected by God in eternity past, they appeal to God’s common provisions such as rain and sunshine.
Or they give you the old standby "it's a mystery" or "You just don't understand Calvinism".

But there is no way Calvinism can be deemed as genuinely loving given the Scripture’s own definition of love found in 1 Corinthians 13?

Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, clearly explains what love is not when he writes:

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.” (1 Cor. 13:1-3)
 
What a loving remark, Oh wait a minute I forgot there is no love in Calvinism.
It is the "logical" alternative to viewing all of God's attributes.
Those that advocate for "Universalism", as an example, tend to see a 'god' of only LOVE where all roads lead to heaven, which is not the God of scripture.

You COULD have chosen to respond to my questions about God's other attributes instead of taking a shot at calvinism (although it was a funny shot). ;)
They were an honest question. Does it matter that God's love is also a HOLY LOVE? and a JUST LOVE?
Does it matter that God's JUSTICE is equally HOLY and LOVING?

See, God cannot be just one thing and turn off his other innate attributes. HE is those things ... they exist because they come from HIM. God cannot stop being GOD, or being less GOD in some aspect.

So what is HOLY LOVE?
What is JUST LOVE?
What is ETERNAL LOVE?
What is UNCHANGING LOVE?
What is HOLY JUST ETERNAL UNCHANGING LOVE?

What are the other attributes of God?
 
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