Moses and Jesus taught free will

[makesends]

Where was there wrath within the Trinity before creation, prior to anything existing. Please explain. Where was the Justice between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit before creation ?

But we know there was Love between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit for God is love.

I rest my case and all the skeptics questions asked will not change those facts regarding Gods INNATE ATTRIBUTES.

Theology is the study of God and has nothing to do with man. Anthropology is the study of man.

You are conflating them. Try and stay on topic.

We are discussing God, not man.

These are Gods Innate Attributes apart from creation. Who God is within His own Being as Father, Son and Holy Spirit

1-Aseity- Self Sufficient
2-Eternal
3-Omnipresent
4-Omnipotent
5-Omniscient
6-Love
7-Holy
8-Immutable
9-Perichoresis
10-God is One- Unity within the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
11- Infinite
12- Transcendent
13- Humility
14- Good
15- Glorious

hope this helps !!!

How does any of this defeat Calvinism?

You left out, Immanence, and Simplicity.

God's wrath is our view of his purity as it deals with sin. His purity has always been what it continues to be. Same goes for his justice.

But what do we know of God's acts before his creation of our universe? Nothing.

 

[Maurice]

God Created us with a free will that is still in effect. The sovereignty of God is just as strong, if not stronger, in a world where human beings have the power of choice between alternatives. One reason for saying this is that God is the one who freely—sovereignly—decided to give this power to those he created to bear his image. Another is the fact that God is marvelously able to govern the world, and achieve his ends—for every individual and the world and human race as a whole—in spite of the fact that the persons he made exercise the freedom to choose.

When a person chooses for or against God he is fulfilling God’s will that he have the choice.

But if it is unpleasing in your sight to serve the LORD, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD!”
Joshua 24:15

 

[atpollard]

By the way, just so you know, I don't myself really identify as a Calvinist. They just agree with me on most points.

I came to the Doctrines of Grace the same way ... reading scripture and studying Wesleyan Theology.
I finally reached 5 conclusions on my own: (Credobaptism) and 4 Biblical Truths that are close enough to the Doctrines of Grace.

[It still feels like NONE OF MY BUSINESS who Jesus died for besides me.]

 

[Rockson]

What is the point of responding to you if you then ignore the answer to your question?

OK let's go back and make comment on it. I didn't before because I thought I made my primary point. But let's took at some of it again,

You said,
"There is nothing wrong with natural analogies" Post #40

But you did say this prior in post #28
Using natural analogy (appeals to the flesh - human mind - to accomplish the goal, not Spirit giving birth to spirit)

So with Jesus using the earthly thing, natural analogy of the wind you're claiming Jesus wasn't sincere in really wanting to bring Nicodemus to the place of understanding and believing. And remember he added on about the other people rejecting as well. Jn 3:11 He did however want all to believe it's clear from the text.

And you said, (I was objecting to your man-centric focus on salvation and the fact that you completely ignored Jesus statement that "the Spirit gives birth to spirit.")

Sorry friend but you were detouring again. Spirit giving birth to Sprit has nothing to do with what we were talking about and I've never denied Spirit doesn't give birth to Spirit. The point was that Jesus was seeking, and trying and wanting all to believe and that's what he demonstrated for all in John 3 So the point. John 3:16 that God so loved the world applied to every single person on the planet.

 

[civic]

I came to the Doctrines of Grace the same way ... reading scripture and studying Wesleyan Theology.
I finally reached 5 conclusions on my own: (Credobaptism) and 4 Biblical Truths that are close enough to the Doctrines of Grace.

[It still feels like NONE OF MY BUSINESS who Jesus died for besides me.]

I left calvinism(the doctrines of grace ) after comparing them with Gods nature and character and seeing how that opposed the doctrines.

 

[civic]

OK let's go back and make comment on it. I didn't before because I thought I made my primary point. But let's took at some of it again,

You said,
"There is nothing wrong with natural analogies" Post #40

But you did say this prior in post #28
Using natural analogy (appeals to the flesh - human mind - to accomplish the goal, not Spirit giving birth to spirit)

So with Jesus using the earthly thing, natural analogy of the wind you're claiming Jesus wasn't sincere in really wanting to bring Nicodemus to the place of understanding and believing. And remember he added on about the other people rejecting as well. Jn 3:11 He did however want all to believe it's clear from the text.

And you said, (I was objecting to your man-centric focus on salvation and the fact that you completely ignored Jesus statement that "the Spirit gives birth to spirit.")

Sorry friend but you were detouring again. Spirit giving birth to Sprit has nothing to do with what we were talking about and I've never denied Spirit doesn't give birth to Spirit. The point was that Jesus was seeking, and trying and wanting all to believe and that's what he demonstrated for all in John 3 So the point. John 3:16 that God so loved the world applied to every single person on the planet.

bingo

 

[Rockson]

Ok, let's say, for the sake of argument, that Jesus did "try". My opinion is that Jesus operated by his human nature.

So are you saying Jesus spent time saying things which were not the will of the Father? When Jesus was trying, to cause people to believe he was amiss from what God the Father was directing him to do? Respectfully though....you might want to reconsider that.

Meanwhile, whether or not he did "try", we have the witness of scripture, and the product of reason, that GOD does even plead with people, give them time to repent,

So you have God pleading with people to repent but believe but he really doesn't want them to? How can you tell me that makes any sense? Sorry but this should demonstrate to you that Calvinism doesn't make any sense.

 

[atpollard]

Sorry friend but you were detouring again. Spirit giving birth to Sprit has nothing to do with what we were talking about and I've never denied Spirit doesn't give birth to Spirit.

We have irreconcilable differences.

You read John 3 and want to focus on what 'Nic' can do and should do as if salvation depended on 'Nic'. I see the verses about the [Holy] Spirit giving birth as an ELEPHANT in the room that cannot be ignored and CRUSHES whatever 'Nic' might do in his own power into irrelevance.

I want a divorce! (we are unequally yoked)

 

[Aeliana]

He also died for those to whom God showed mercy. So far we are going way past "no need to say more".

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:1-2). John's language here is unmistakable. Jesus died for the sins of John's audience (undoubtedly believers in Christ) as well as for those of the entire world.

God showed his Mercy by sending his son.

 

[civic]

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:1-2). John's language here is unmistakable. Jesus died for the sins of John's audience (undoubtedly believers in Christ) as well as for those of the entire world.

God showed his Mercy by sending his son.

Yes 2 groups- the saved and unsaved. Believers and the whole world that consists of unbelievers. Its those whom the atonement was made, ie everyone both believers and unbelievers alike. The only ones who benefit from the atonements for their sins are believers which is why faith is important and essential to having ones sins forgiven.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Purposeful misrepresentation of what I believe.

Nope. You believe God chose you.

I barely know God.

True of everyone. However, you believe God has empowered you to understand.

You will be measured by your own standard, by which you measure others. Just as I will be by my standard.

How does that work? You believe God will spare you and judge me.

You continue to flame me —not debate. I think we are done.

What I said is true to your position. You will take pleasure in the death of the wicked that did not have the privileges you claim for yourself. That is proof of what I stated. No "flaming involved".

 

[praise_yeshua]

I cannot get you to engage in a "CONVERSATION" ... so much so that I changed my Avatar, Signature and purpose on BAM from "fellowship" to "defending the Faith".
What chance would a debate stand if a conversation cannot be engaged?

I pass on the invitation.
Debating TRINITY will not defend the truth of scripture found in the Doctrines of Grace and the 5 Solas (we are both TRINITARIANS).

Double talk.....

Just how do you defend your false claims concerning the "doctrines of Grace" without knowing Who God is?

 

[praise_yeshua]

How does any of this defeat Calvinism?

You left out, Immanence, and Simplicity.

God's wrath is our view of his purity as it deals with sin. His purity has always been what it continues to be. Same goes for his justice.

Then why are you not dead in hell right now?

 

[Rockson]

We have irreconcilable differences.

You read John 3 and want to focus on what 'Nic' can do and should do as if salvation depended on 'Nic'. I see the verses about the [Holy] Spirit giving birth as an ELEPHANT in the room that cannot be ignored and CRUSHES whatever 'Nic' might do in his own power into irrelevance.

You've rejected what God says he does and what he requires MAN to do to cooperate to receive his grace.

I want a divorce! (we are unequally yoked)

Ha....well remember those are your words not mine

 

[praise_yeshua]

I left calvinism(the doctrines of grace ) after comparing them with Gods nature and character and seeing how that opposed the doctrines.

Anyone that has done such... would. It is why they avoid it.

 

[civic]

Anyone that has done such... would. It is why they avoid it.

it actually tormented calvin but he dug his feet in deeper and would not leave his doctrines. Whenever he saw conflict you would see the plea of " mystery " associated with Gods decree/plan etc....... Its a cop-out and leads a calvinist to compatibilism. Its walking the fence and having ones cake and eating it too when confronted with the realities of those doctrines. There is conflict not harmony with them. They cannot reconcile how God is love and can hate in their philosophy. In monergism its a problem but not in synergism- Its balanced and reconcilable.

 

[atpollard]

You've rejected what God says he does

Nyet! (Russian for "No!")

“There are three types of lies -- lies, damn lies, and statistics.” - Benjamin Disraeli

 

[Rockson]

I say this in love to some of you Calvinists. There is something about your doctrine, religious paradigm way of thinking you might consider being concerned about and that's this.

You have this way of thinking that God shows favoritism for no just reason. Now come on we all know that if all are under sin....all of us have fallen short of the glory or God......there would be no just reason for God to show favoritism one over another and yet that's what's been passed down to you the way to think about God. Here's a major problem. Please consider it. Calvinism takes one from the place of even comprehending what LOVE is.

It's a mystery to you. That being the case how can one truly feel they can be conformed to the image of Christ.....and I'm referring to in character. Now I know many of you are of good character but if you think God is really being unkind to people.....then what are you being conformed to if that's your image of God. How can God truly be your role model. If you strive to have God's character so what is God's character to you? Is he kind, gracious and fair and truly just?

 

[Rockson]

Nyet! (Russian for "No!")

Kind of like that actually....has a feeling like the English words not yet.

“There are three types of lies -- lies, damn lies, and statistics.” - Benjamin Disraeli

Well I'll let readers decide who's in error and who is not. I contend I've told the truth from Jn 3. Peace.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I say this in love to some of you Calvinists. There is something about your doctrine, religious paradigm way of thinking you might consider being concerned about and that's this.

You have this way of thinking that God shows favoritism for no just reason. Now come on we all know that if all are under sin....all of us have fallen short of the glory or God......there would be no just reason for God to show favoritism one over another and yet that's what's been passed down to you the way to think about God. Here's a major problem. Please consider it. Calvinism takes one from the place of even comprehending what LOVE is.

It's a mystery to you. That being the case how can one truly feel they can be conformed to the image of Christ.....and I'm referring to in character. Now I know many of you are of good character but if you think God is really being unkind to people.....then what are you being conformed to if that's your image of God. How can God truly be your role model. If you strive to have God's character so what is God's character to you? Is he kind, gracious and fair and truly just?

You're reasoning is a bit backward. If all of us have fallen short of the glory of God, God would still be righteous and just if He didn't save anyone. God has MERCY on some. So it's a matter of justice and mercy. You want it to be a matter of justice and love, and that's the source of your confusion.