atpollard
Well-known member
If there is an answer to your question, would you accept the possibility that you were wrong in your conclusion?
Moses and Jesus taught free will
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The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Here, I'll make it as simple as possible:
Some believe, and some don't. Why?
Free-willers: "We chose to believe but others choose not to."
Calvinists: "We were unable to believe until God regenerated us (born again, from above)."
Free-willer evidence: "Look at how many places it says to believe."
Calvinist-evidence: "Look at how the Bible says we are dead in our sins until we are reborn."
Challenge to free-willers: "You can choose what to believe. Choose to believe you are the opposite sex. Given today's cultural climate, it is certainly possible."
Some believe, and some don't. Why?
Free-willers: "We chose to believe but others choose not to."
Calvinists: "We were unable to believe until God regenerated us (born again, from above)."
Free-willer evidence: "Look at how many places it says to believe."
Calvinist-evidence: "Look at how the Bible says we are dead in our sins until we are reborn."
Challenge to free-willers: "You can choose what to believe. Choose to believe you are the opposite sex. Given today's cultural climate, it is certainly possible."
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Is that suppose to be an answer?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
As I've said many times before. You are over simplifying God's purpose.
You MUST do this with your theological position. If you are forced to deal with the details (which you refuse to do) then you will lose the argument. You're basically trying to stop discovery.
This is so very clear in your comments above..... for example
There are many many reasons why some do not believe. In fact, YOU are the reason that some might not believe. You insist on telling your brothers in Adam that God Himself predestined all things and MOST MEN will not be included in redemption. That is what YOU are telling others. However, you are claiming Grace for yourself and excluding others. You tell men to wait for God to do what He alone does. Which is despicably false.
You know why I know this is possible. I know this is possible because the Scriptures say it is possible. Scriptures that none of you Calvinist will deal with. None of you.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Those that preach such things are culpable in the destruction of their own family. The individual is also equally guilty because they have chosen to listen to someone else instead of God Himself.
Rockson
Well-known member
Yeah that's right. He who has ear to hear, let him hear.Excellent and thanks for your study of the passage and sharing Gods truth with us.
He who has ears to hear , let him hear .
Rockson
Well-known member
Where you getting that from that I'm saying born of the Spirit means nothing. What are you even talking about?
I showed you that Jesus indeed wanted them to believe and took clear measures to bring them to the place of doing so, that is by using a natural analogy (the directions of the wind) Nicodemus still didn't get it but there was no excuse for him not doing so.
When Nicodemus said how can this be he then said to him, Look you're a teacher (one of the main ones) in Israel and you don't get what I'm sharing as simple as it is? In other words saying to him you should be getting this, there's no excuse why you shouldn't.
No excuse for them not to be believing. No excuse for them not to be believing. No excuse for them not to be believing. And sorry but there's really no excuse for some of you Calvinists not to be believing that God wanted them all to believe, including the ones who rejected him.
Rockson
Well-known member
So atpollard, what do we really have here? You're really maybe acknowledging I made a good point in my post #11 so you set up a detour around having to give a credible answer and will default into saying well I probably won't listen to your point so why
bother? Well I'd encourage at least readers to look at the post #11 and I think you'll find it puts Calvinistic thinking to rest. God does LOVE the world and everyone in it and I demonstrate Jesus sought to get everyone to believe. Such is what LOVE would do and Jesus stayed the course.
atpollard
Well-known member
What about here (quoted from you with emphasis by me) …
@Rockson said: “I showed you that Jesus indeed wanted them to believe and took clear measures to bring them to the place of doing so, that is by using a natural analogy (the directions of the wind) Nicodemus still didn't get it but there was no excuse for him not doing so.”
In your explanation we have:
- Them believing (by their power, not a work of the Spirit)
- Then being brought to the place where THEY can do it (not the birth of the Spirit)
- Using natural analogy (appeals to the flesh - human mind - to accomplish the goal, not Spirit giving birth to spirit)
- Nicodemus (man) still not understanding (human effort and human failure, not birth of the Spirit)
- For him (human effort) not to do so (human effort should have succeeded, no need for Spirit birthing spirit, is there?)
- Anything that resembles the words of Jesus that “Spirit gives birth to spirit” in a discussion on the necessity of being “born again” or “born from above” as a prerequisite for the Kingdom of God.
- Which is EXACTLY the point I raised and the criticism that I leveled against your analysis the first time.
Your view embraces Semi-Pelagianism … man is not dead, only sick and can get himself to salvation (found in the blood of Christ). [Pelagianism would deny that we need the blood of Christ … I do not accuse you of believing that … I accuse you of denying that the “gift” is “not of yourselves”.]
atpollard
Well-known member
My suspicion that you are waiting to talk rather than listening and the question asked and argument raised was a false flag … you cared not one whit for the answer or the issue, it was just an attempt to score rhetorical points with a cheap attack on a strawman of your own manufacture.
I was just curious whether you would be honest enough to admit that no possible response to your rhetorical “problem” and question would cause you to reconsider your “settled position” on the subject.
atpollard
Well-known member
Just look at Gaza and the outpouring of God’s love on the women and children living in the shadow of Terrorist Rocket Launchers. Then there was God’s famous “lesser love” for the children of Esau:
Malachi 1:2-5 [NASB]
"I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have You loved us?" "Was Esau not Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and given his inheritance to the jackals of the wilderness." Though Edom says, "We have been beaten down, but we will return and build up the ruins"; this is what the LORD of armies says: "They may build, but I will tear down; and people will call them the territory of wickedness, and the people with whom the LORD is indignant forever." And your eyes will see this, and you will say, "The LORD be exalted beyond the border of Israel!"
"I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have You loved us?" "Was Esau not Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and given his inheritance to the jackals of the wilderness." Though Edom says, "We have been beaten down, but we will return and build up the ruins"; this is what the LORD of armies says: "They may build, but I will tear down; and people will call them the territory of wickedness, and the people with whom the LORD is indignant forever." And your eyes will see this, and you will say, "The LORD be exalted beyond the border of Israel!"
Frank Russell
Well-known member
Moses taught free will ... imagining the red sea parted and free willy leaping from side to side.
Rockson
Well-known member
Yes guilty as charged I did say the above.
Oh really. So when Jesus used natural analogies talking about farmers Mt 13:24, Mustard Seeds Mt 13:31, Kings Matt 18:23, Nets Matt 13:47, Merchants Matt 13:45, Yeast Mat 13:33, Barns Mt 3:12, and Sowers Mt 13:24 he was appealing to the flesh to accomplish his goals. The Spirit couldn't use the analogies....OK You sure you don't want to dial this back?
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Rockson
Well-known member
Sorry friend but you're doing another detour and you're doing what I said...claiming I wouldn't care for an answer using that as a front to not give an answer. Oh yeah you eventually tried but NEVER dealt with the real point raised. Why did Jesus give Nicodemus a natural analogy if he didn't want him to believe?
And he added in on that and yet you people do not accept our testimony meaning all of them when he was trying to get them to believe. Trying to get them to believe means God wanted them to believe. I think I better put down the statement you like to put down and please consider it.
"The one who has ears to hear let him hear"
Rockson
Well-known member
Atpollard....I'm sorry.....but you don't think through on what you're saying. So because someone or more than one are victimized that means to you God doesn't love them?
That would mean God didn't love Abel.
That would mean God didn't love Stephen.
That would mean God didn't love any
number of others we can refer to in the Bible,
Even the heros of the faith (see Heb 11)
civic
Well-known member
Amen to the loving God of the scriptures that loves all mankind, all of the world, everyone.
civic
Well-known member
And lets add Jesus to that same victim list since He was tortured, killed, murdered by the hands of the wicked Jews for whom He died and atoned for their sins.
1- Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
2- Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
3- Matthew 17:12
But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.”
4- Matthew 20:18
Look, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and scribes. They will condemn Him to death
5- Matthew 20:19
and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life.
6- Acts 4:10
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole
7- Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
hope this helps !!!
makesends
Well-known member
That serves as an indication of what free will is. It does not show that Calvinism is wrong.
Westminster Confession of Faith, chapter 3: 1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
Free will chooses. But it is not autonomous.
civic
Well-known member
Since in calvinism man is dead and cannot seek God therefor God must regenerate them first giving them a new mind, heart and will they never asked for or sought. They by nature being dead were haters of God. So they were regenerated without their knowing or approval and their wills were violated by God whom they despised and hated. That was done by force or coercion which is actually unloving. Loving another is done freely and its mutual built upon an established relationship.
Were you forced or coerced to love and marry your wife ?
Lets put on our thinking caps here and use a little common sense.
atpollard
Well-known member
A valid question. I cannot speak for every human being that calls themselves a Calvinist (I am not the Calvinist Pope
), but my answer is:- There is nothing wrong with natural analogies (I was objecting to your man-centric focus on salvation and the fact that you completely ignored Jesus statement that "the Spirit gives birth to spirit.")
- Jesus most certainly did want Nicodemus to believe.
- God wants everyone to believe, the Gospel message is a genuine offer. [Sadly, it is one that all men "naturally" choose to reject - see 1 Corinthians 1:18-25 - thus the need for the Holy Spirit to give re-birth to our spirit and empower us to believe: see John 3:5-8 & Ephesians 2:4-5.]
Quick Reference for easy reading:
- 1 Corinthians 1:18-25 [NASB] 18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE UNDERSTANDING OF THOSE WHO HAVE UNDERSTANDING, I WILL CONFOUND." 20 Where is the wise person? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has God not made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than mankind, and the weakness of God is stronger than mankind.
- John 3:5-8 [NASB] 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and [the] Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 "That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit."
- Ephesians 2:4-5 [NASB] 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
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