Truther
Well-known member
You said Jews had to obey Acts 2:38 at Pentecost but Jews were the audience in Acts 3.
Fishy.
I think you are making stuff up.
Mark 16:16~"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
- Thread starter Red Baker
- Start date
Fishy.
I think you are making stuff up.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
We pass from death to life when we die to sin in baptism, and are resurrected by the Spirit through the power of Jesus' blood (Rom 6:1-7). If we have not died to sin (which only happens during baptism), then we are still dead in our sin.
Sorry those still in sin do not receive the Spirit
and the gentiles received the spirit and repentance unto life before water baptism
Truther
Well-known member
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ...
Remission of sins is not salvation?
read the text not your theology
John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
But he did not say without water baptism you cannot be saved
and you did not address these
Sorry acts 2 never states you cannot be saved without water baptism
you read that into the text
Not anywhere here
Acts 3:19–20 (ESV) — 19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus,
repentance brings remission of sin and life
Acts 11:18 (ESV) — 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
Water baptism is a sign of the cleanliness accomplished by repentance
Luke 24:47 (ESV) — 47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Acts 10:43 (ESV) — 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
Acts 5:31 (ESV) — 31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
2 Corinthians 7:10 (ESV) — 10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.
I can accept Acts 2:38 as a true statement without falsifying it
You however must deny many verses to affirm your cannot be saved without water baptism theology
note below
examples
When did these pass from death to life
John 5:24 (NASB 2020) — 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
you never address
these
Acts 11:15–18 (NASB 2020) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as He also gave to us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has also granted to the Gentiles the repentance that leads to life.”
What did John say would bring life?
John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.
again you provide no answer
BTW examine the verses - Acts appears there four times in a manner contrary to your views
So who really is the Acts skipper here
Maybe you should learn Acts 2:38 is not the only verse in the bible. And learn to consider audience
And it does not state what you preach. Unless you are baptised you are not saved
That is a negative inference fallacy
you don't deal with that either
Doug Brents
Well-known member
The Spirit can give His power to anyone He chooses to give it to. He was ON, not IN, the Gentiles with Cornelius, "the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening".
The Gentiles in Acts 10 received repentance that leads to life (repentance does not cause new life). And they received the same Spirit that the Apostles received "at the beginning" (on Pentecost): the Spirit's miraculous tongues and praise. They were not saved until they died to sin in baptism.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
I am not reading "my theology". I am reading ALL of the Scriptural text. John 5:24 says that those who believe on the Father receive everlasting life. But you misinterpret what it means to "believe". You think it just means to agree that He exists, or to agree that He can save us. But it is not just a mental exercise. It is FAITH. And faith is not passive, but requires action (as I have tried to explain to you many times). Faith without the actions of obedience is not really faith. If you think you Jesus is your Lord, but you do not do what He says, then He is not really your Lord.
It was not just power, They had received repentance unto life
They were to be saved by the words they heard and the God who knows their heart testified unto them giving the Spirit who is life
Even the Jews had to acquiesce at that point
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Yes, they received repentance UNTO (that leads toward) life.
And the Jews did acquiesce which we can see in that they immediately baptized the Gentiles into Christ so that they would have their sins removed, and be united to Christ and receive the life that repentance leads to.
Sorry because they received the reality of union with Christ they were entitled to receive the sign of it
The spirit not water baptises in to the one body
1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
It is the spirit that gives life not water
John 6:63 (ESV) — 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
The Gentiles had salvation before water baptism as they were to be saved by words
Acts 11:13–18 (KJV 1900) — 13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
not water baptism unto life
The gentiles were baptized with the spirit - that is born of the spirit
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Baptism is not just the "sign" of union with Christ. It is the moment when it occurs.
"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 Far from it! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for the one who has died is freed from sin."
Notice that we die to sin when we are baptized into Christ. We are buried with Jesus into death, through baptism. Baptism is the reality of the moment when we die to sin and enter into Christ, are born again in Christ.
By one Spirit, not in one Spirit. We are baptized in water into Christ by the Spirit.
"and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings, 14 having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."
It is the Spirit who does the cutting of our sins from us (circumcision without hands) when we are buried with Christ in baptism, during which we are also raised with Jesus through faith. The baptism in 1 Cor 12:13 is the same baptism in Rom 6 and Col 2 and 1 Pet 3:21, IN WATER.
Water does not give life, and I have never said it did. I said, as does Scripture, that it is during water baptism that the Spirit gives life from death.
The Gentiles did not have salvation before water baptism; they had the gift of tongues and praise before water baptism. They had their sins cut from them, and were resurrected from death to life in Christ when they were baptized in water shortly after the Spirit fell ON them in power.
Repentance does not cause life, it leads to life (unto life). Life is received after we die to sin, and Scripture says we die to sin in baptism.
Nope it was not the moment for the Samaritans and it was not the moment for the gentiles
You assumed baptism here refers to water baptism and not the greater baptism of the Spirit
By the spirit
Water will get you wet but it will not change your heart
There is no mention of water in that verse
So you are adding to Scripture
In the greek the same preposition en is used in that verse that is used in every other passage speaking of the baptism en the Spirit
Again baptism en the Spirit
It is the Spirit not water which makes alive
John 4:13–14 (KJV 1900) — 13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Jesus baptizes en the Spirit
John 6:63 (ESV) — 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Sorry not what we see in scripture and simply assume water in those passages though it is nowhere mentioned
The gentiles were baptized en the spirit before water, they had salvation, forgiveness of sin, the indwelling of the Spirit before water baptism
The samaritans had the spirit after water baptismr
sorry that is not what we saw in Acts 10, 11, 15 with the gentiles
Sorry you assume that despite the text stating they would be saved by what they hear
they believed on Christ which according to scripture provides remission of sin
Acts 10:43 (KJV 1900) — 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
you have ignored the transitional nature of the book of Acts
The jews were exposed to the baptism of Christ yet they rejected him and it and crucified Christ.
The gentiles are never told they need to be baptised to receive remission of sin, to be saved, to receive the Holy Spirit
Each one of those things we are told will be received through faith
Truther
Well-known member
So you are saying that people are saved without remission of sins?
Truther
Well-known member
Can somebody here tell me how somebody is saved without remission of sins? Baptism is for the remission of sins. It’s kind of weird that people claim to be saved and are not baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins. What’s Christianity coming to?
Doug Brents
Well-known member
No, I accept the complete agreement and continuity of the Scriptures. There is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:4-6). And that one baptism is one that man does (Matt 28:19), and that one baptism saves (Mark 16:16, 1 Pet 3:21). And that one baptism includes the actions taken by the Holy Spirit (Col 2:11-14) that remove our sins, thus we die to sin (Rom 6:1-7) and are united with Jesus' resurrection.
It is certainly the Holy Spirit that makes our spirit alive, during the one baptism that has any relevance in the NT Church, water baptism.
I am not debating that the Spirit brings about spiritual resurrection. Nor am I debating that He is referred to as the water that flows from our hearts in John 4. But that is not the only water mentioned in Scripture in relation to salvation. You think that by allusion you can subvert the Scripture and remain in control of your salvation. But God took that control away from you, by stating that it is during something as foolish as baptism that our sins are removed from us.
You violate your own theology in saying that the Samaritans did not receive the indwelling of the Spirit until long after their salvation. All the saved receive the indwelling of the Spirit at the moment of salvation. So the Samaritans (in your understanding) received the indwelling when they believed. But I understand that they received the indwelling of the Spirit when they were baptized. But we are told that both of these had already happened before Peter and John were sent to them. So we KNOW that they had the indwelling of the Spirit before Peter and John were sent to them. What they did not have was the miraculous signs of the Spirit that people could see. That is what Peter and John gave to them.
The Gentiles received the Holy Spirit ON them, not in their hearts, as a sign to the Jews that the Gentiles were equal to the Jews in the Church, and were now to be brought into the Church just as the Jews were, through baptism. None of the Gentiles had the indwelling yet, because they had not yet had their sins removed.
That is not what you want to see in Acts 10, 11, and 15, but it is what Scripture says. You seem to want to compartmentalize different events and make each one have its own pattern. But there is only one pattern in Scripture, and only one path to salvation in the NT Church.
As has been mentioned before, and even though you obviously reject the truth of it, belief is NOT just mental acceptance. Faith that produces salvation demands the actions taken that are commanded as leading to receiving salvation. They were saved by what they heard: they heard the Gospel, they heard the instructions of Peter to be baptized, and they obeyed his command and were saved, had their sins removed, and received the indwelling of the Spirit when they were baptized into Christ.
There are not different paths to salvation for the Jews and the Gentiles. There are not two bodies of Christ. There is only ONE body of Christ composed of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ, both Jew and Gentile. So there is only one way to salvation, and Jesus mandated that way in Matt 28:19 which is echoed in Mark 16:16, and substantiated by 1 Pet 3:21. There is also only one baptism, and that baptism requires water because it is something that man does, not that the Spirit does.
sorry that the real baptism en the holy Ghost
The one that Christ does
Matthew 3:11 (ESV) — 11 “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
A greater baptizer with a greater baptism
water baptism is just a symbol
And faith not an application of water saves
John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
What does the text say is necessary for eternal life?
when does one pass from death to life?
Why does John write
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
sorry you denied the baptism en the spirit
and water will not make you alive
Sure you are
You attribute it to water baptism
It is however a function of the spirit - the living water to make alive
John 7:38–39 (ESV) — 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Jews experienced water baptism from John and from Jesus disciples, but it lacked the power to give the spirit
Not necessarily during the transitional era.
The jews were told to be baptized first
The samaritans received water baptism but not the spirit
The Gentiles however received the Spirit, life, remission of sin and salvation before water baptism
That is the pattern for New Testament believers
Sorry that is not found in the text
They received the person of the spirit that is indwelling
john stated
John 7:38 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Luke recorded
Acts 11:13–14 (KJV 1900) — 13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
The gentiles believed, thus had living water in their belly which speaks of indwelling springing up to everlasting life
John 4:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
No I am saying men can be saved , receive remission of sin without water baptism
Acts 3:19 (KJV 1900) — 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 10:43 (KJV 1900) — 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Romans 3:21–26 (KJV 1900) — 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Truther
Well-known member
What is water baptism in the name of Jesus a symbol of?
