Mark 16:16~"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

[Behold]

Did the church begin in the book of John or Pentecost(Acts)?

The official "church" began with the Cross of Christ. (Jesus dying on it).

Specifically tho, it began with the Resurrection, as if that had not occurred, then the Cross is just one more "fake Messiah".

But Jesus is ALIVE from the dead, and so..

"Case Closed"..

Now, if you want to know if a believer can receive the Holy Spirit, before "Pentecost"..

Then read John 20:22 carefully....

 

[Truther]

Behold...go get coffee.

 

[Behold]

Wow

Yes.

see, when you post nonsense, like.....>"well if the book of John is after the book of Genesis, then i win.. im the winner, point proven".

So that is what you are doing, and that is "duck feathers"

meaningless.

 

[Behold]

Behold...go get coffee.

@Truther

take a breath.... and if you want to be water baptized again, its not going to save you...

Water only gets you wet, as your sin is in your heart = and only the Blood of Jesus can reach that part...

Millions of water baptized people who are in hell right now, will tell you the same...

Thats a fact.

 

[Truther]

The official "church" began with the Cross of Christ. (Jesus dying on it).

Specifically tho, it began with the Resurrection, as if that had not occurred, then the Cross is just one more "fake Messiah".

But Jesus is ALIVE from the dead, and so..

"Case Closed"..

Now, if you want to know if a believer can receive the Holy Spirit, before "Pentecost"..

Then read John 20:22 carefully....

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 

[Truther]

Yes.

see, when you post nonsense, like.....>"well if the book of John is after the book of Genesis, then i win.. im the winner, point proven".

So that is what you are doing, and that is "duck feathers"

meaningless.

Should Revelation have been placed before Matthew?

If not, why not?

 

[Behold]

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:

That power is the enabling for the "call" of God.

This..

God gave some... "apostles, prophets, evangelists, Pastors, Teachers"..


So, we see that Peter received this enduement, when he was given "the gift of Tongues" which are a "sign for the Jew"
And that is all you have at that Pentecost.

A Jew preaching to JEWS.

That "power", is the "Acts of the APOSTLES".... 2 Corinthians 12:12.

Never confuse the Acts of the Apostles (Book of ACTS of the Apostles) with the deed of the Christians.

Many Charismatic cults have made that mistake.

 

[Truther]

@Truther

take a breath.... and if you want to be water baptized again, its not going to save you...

Water only gets you wet, as your sin is in your heart = and only the Blood of Jesus can reach that part...

Millions of water baptized people who are in hell right now, will tell you the same...

Thats a fact.

The name of Jesus spoken during baptism buries us with Jesus Christ.

It is not only water, but the name....


[17] And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Baptism in the name of Jesus is both word AND deed.

 

[Truther]

That power is the enabling for the "call" of God.

This..

God gave some... "apostles, prophets, evangelists, Pastors, Teachers"..


So, we see that Peter receive this enduement, when he was given "the gift of Tongues" which are a "sign for the Jew"
And that is all you have at that Pentecost.

A Jew preaching to JEWS.

That "power", is the "Acts of the APOSTLES".... 2 Corinthians 12:12.

Never confuse the Acts of the Apostles (Book of ACTS of the Apostles) with the deed of the Christians.

Many Charismatic cult have made that mistake.

The power was the Holy Ghost in Acts 2.

 

[TomL]

Cherry pickin' Acts skipper.

Good Catholic.

You have no idea what you are talking about if you think i am Catholic.

And you are quite unlearned if you imagine objection to your doctrine marks one as Catholic


You skipped far more

Acts 3:19–20 (ESV) — 19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus,

repentance brings remission of sin and life

Acts 11:18 (ESV) — 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Water baptism is a sign of the cleanliness accomplished by repentance

Luke 24:47 (ESV) — 47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Acts 10:43 (ESV) — 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 5:31 (ESV) — 31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

2 Corinthians 7:10 (ESV) — 10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

I can accept Acts 2:38 as a true statement without falsifying it

You however must deny many verses to affirm your cannot be saved without water baptism theology

examples

When did these pass from death to life

John 5:24 (NASB 2020) — 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

these

Acts 11:15–18 (NASB 2020) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as He also gave to us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has also granted to the Gentiles the repentance that leads to life.”

What did John say would bring life?

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

BTW examine the verses - Acts appears there four times in a manner contrary to your views

So who really is the Acts skipper here

Maybe you should learn Acts 2:38 is not the only verse in the bible

 

[Truther]

You have no idea what you are talking about if you think i am Catholic.

And you are quite unlearned if you imagine objection to your doctrine marks one as Catholic


You skipped far more

Acts 3:19–20 (ESV) — 19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus,

repentance brings remission of sin and life

Acts 11:18 (ESV) — 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Water baptism is a sign of the cleanliness accomplished by repentance

Luke 24:47 (ESV) — 47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Acts 10:43 (ESV) — 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 5:31 (ESV) — 31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

2 Corinthians 7:10 (ESV) — 10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

I can accept Acts 2:38 as a true statement without falsifying it

You however must deny many verses to affirm your cannot be saved without water baptism theology

examples

When did these pass from death to life

John 5:24 (NASB 2020) — 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

these

Acts 11:15–18 (NASB 2020) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as He also gave to us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has also granted to the Gentiles the repentance that leads to life.”

What did John say would bring life?

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

BTW examine the verses - Acts appears there four times in a manner contrary to your views

So who really is the Acts skipper here

Maybe you should learn Acts 2:38 is not the only verse in the bible

The RCC was the original Acts 2:38 skipping organization.
You folks are her minions

 

[TomL]

The RCC was the original Acts 2:38 skipping organization.
You folks are her minions

As was noted


You skipped (denied) far more

Acts 3:19–20 (ESV) — 19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus,

repentance brings remission of sin and life

Acts 11:18 (ESV) — 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Water baptism is a sign of the cleanliness accomplished by repentance

Luke 24:47 (ESV) — 47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Acts 10:43 (ESV) — 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 5:31 (ESV) — 31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

2 Corinthians 7:10 (ESV) — 10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

I can accept Acts 2:38 as a true statement without falsifying it

You however must deny many verses to affirm your cannot be saved without water baptism theology

examples

When did these pass from death to life

John 5:24 (NASB 2020) — 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

these

Acts 11:15–18 (NASB 2020) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as He also gave to us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has also granted to the Gentiles the repentance that leads to life.”

What did John say would bring life?

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

BTW examine the verses - Acts appears there four times in a manner contrary to your views

So who really is the Acts skipper here

Maybe you should learn Acts 2:38 is not the only verse in the bible

and answered nothing

 

[Truther]

As was noted


You skipped (denied) far more



and answered nothing

Think hard Tom....


16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,...


43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins....


48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord...


...connect the dots.

 

[TomL]

Think hard Tom....


16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,...


43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins....


48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord...


...connect the dots.

again you have denied far more

Acts 3:19–20 (ESV) — 19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus,

repentance brings remission of sin and life

Acts 11:18 (ESV) — 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Water baptism is a sign of the cleanliness accomplished by repentance

Luke 24:47 (ESV) — 47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Acts 10:43 (ESV) — 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 5:31 (ESV) — 31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

2 Corinthians 7:10 (ESV) — 10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

I can accept Acts 2:38 as a true statement without falsifying it

You however must deny many verses to affirm your cannot be saved without water baptism theology

examples

When did these pass from death to life

John 5:24 (NASB 2020) — 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

these

Acts 11:15–18 (NASB 2020) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as He also gave to us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has also granted to the Gentiles the repentance that leads to life.”

What did John say would bring life?

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

BTW examine the verses - Acts appears there four times in a manner contrary to your views

So who really is the Acts skipper here

Maybe you should learn Acts 2:38 is not the only verse in the bible. And learn to consider audience

 

[dwight92070]

like this?...


3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized WITH THE HOLY GHOST into Jesus Christ were baptized BY THE HOLY GHOST into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried BY THE HOLY GHOST with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death BY THE HOLY GHOST, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him BY THE HOLY GHOST, that the body of sin might be destroyed BY THE HOLY GHOST, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead FROM THE HOLY GHOST is freed from sin.


Which is kinda weird.
[/QUOT

TomL is correct, Biblically, Repentance and belief is what brings forgiveness of sins and the new birth, not water baptism.

 

[TomL]

like this?...


3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized WITH THE HOLY GHOST into Jesus Christ were baptized BY THE HOLY GHOST into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried BY THE HOLY GHOST with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death BY THE HOLY GHOST, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him BY THE HOLY GHOST, that the body of sin might be destroyed BY THE HOLY GHOST, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead FROM THE HOLY GHOST is freed from sin.


Which is kinda weird.

Not as weird as imagining water is capable of doing that

 

[Doug Brents]

Being "born again" is how you become a CHRISTian.

You do that before you "follow".. @Doug Brents

That is the cart ahead of the horse. One becomes a follower, a student, before one becomes saved. Remember, there were many who "followed" Jesus, but when He talked about "eat My flesh, and drink My blood", many fell away and stopped following. These were followers, but were not yet saved; they did not "endure to the end".

We are initially given Salvation as "Grace THROUGH faith".

Faith is not the Savior.

God is the Savior who saves TROUGH the finished work of Jesus on the Cross.

Do not put your faith in faith.
Put your faith in Christ.

Certainly our faith is in Jesus, for without Him there would be nothing in which to have faith. Yet again, what is faith? It is not passive, mental only, inactive, etc. That would be a dead/ineffective/non-existent faith.

That's the Bride of Christ, in the "time of the Gentiles".

The bride of Christ is the Church, both Jews and Gentiles alike. There is no "time of the Gentiles". There is simply the NT era where there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ. We are all ONE in Christ.

Have you ever been to a mainline denomination Protestant church?
Not the "cult of mary"...

I have NEVER been to a catholic cult worship service (mass?). I have been in several of their cathedrals in Europe, and have seen some of their religious rites from afar, but I have not and will not participate in their unBiblical practices or teachings.

So, lets say a Baptist church.

Not a baptist either. I follow Christ, not uncle Bapt.

The Pastor will give an "alter call".

He will take time to allow the Holy Spirit to deal with the congregation and that is when this is specifically happening......

= Jesus said.. "If i be lifted up (on the Cross)... I will DRAW... ALL... people to me".

See that "Draw? That is to partake of the Holy Spirit, that is the "conviction of the Holy Spirit"...

So, none of the JEWS (Hebrews) in Chapter 6 or 10 are defined as "Church" or "Bride" or "Brethren" or "Saved", or "Sons of God".

And that is because they are HEBREWS, who are rejecting their messiah.

If you want to see this more clearly, then read ....ACTS 28:28, as that is Hebrews Chapters 6 and 10.

ROTFLMBO - The Spirit does indeed work on the hearts of those who are not yet in Christ when they hear the Gospel preached. And through that working draws them toward faith in Jesus. But salvation does not happen until one dies to sin which happens during baptism (Rom 6:1-7), not while sitting in the pew during the worship service.

They didnt.
And that is why Paul told them..."there remains no more Sacrifice for you".. as if you reject the only, then you die unforgiven.

Read the whole of Heb 6. The writer is talking to Hebrews who are part of the Church; the saved. He is not talking to Hebrew people who are not already Christ followers. Notice in verse 18, "we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to hold firmly to the hope set before us." We includes both the writer and the reader who has already "taken refuge" in the Gospel, and they "hold firmly to the hope" that is the Gospel.

So, what Hebrews 6&10 show you, is a group of Christ hating Jews, who are rejecting their Messiah. = "willfully sinning".
Paul likens them to "same as your Father's did', when they stood there in front of the Cross of Christ and said....>"come on down if you are the Messiah".

Again, the primary addressee of this letter is the one who has already accepted Christ, as Heb 10:39 states, "But we are not among those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith for the safekeeping of the soul."

Salvation is completed when you "first believe", as you receive the "Gift of Salvation".

Later, if you become a Calvinist, or a Mormon, or a JW, or a "cult of Mary" then you are deceived by them, and you'll end up with ruined faith.
You'll believe that water saves you, or some other theological ignorance that denies Jesus.

However if you were born again, your FAITH issue, can't undo the New Birth.

Salvation is completed when you first obey the Gospel in repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21). It is not accomplished before baptism.

We are born with a sin nature.
Adam didnt have one to begin with, but we do.

Adam received a sin nature when he and Eve first sinned. That was the Fall.

Lets just stay with Salvation, as that was finished by Jesus on the Cross, and proven by His Resurrection.

That is why He said from the Cross... "IT is finished".

A.) "IT" is Salvation.

John 3:16 is the invitation to come and receive "IT".

Faith is the conduit through which salvation is received. We cannot just stick with salvation and ignore the path through which it is received.
Salvation was bought and paid for at the cross. Jesus completely finished fulfilling the Old Covenant and making salvation possible for anyone who obeys Him. But He did not apply that salvation to us without our obedient faith in Him. If we are not washed in the blood (baptized), then we don't receive His forgiveness and we do not die to sin (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).

 

[TomL]

That is the cart ahead of the horse. One becomes a follower, a student, before one becomes saved. Remember, there were many who "followed" Jesus, but when He talked about "eat My flesh, and drink My blood", many fell away and stopped following. These were followers, but were not yet saved; they did not "endure to the end".

Nope

John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[Truther]

again you have denied far more

Acts 3:19–20 (ESV) — 19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus,

repentance brings remission of sin and life

Acts 11:18 (ESV) — 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Water baptism is a sign of the cleanliness accomplished by repentance

Luke 24:47 (ESV) — 47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Acts 10:43 (ESV) — 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 5:31 (ESV) — 31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

2 Corinthians 7:10 (ESV) — 10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

I can accept Acts 2:38 as a true statement without falsifying it

You however must deny many verses to affirm your cannot be saved without water baptism theology

examples

When did these pass from death to life

John 5:24 (NASB 2020) — 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

these

Acts 11:15–18 (NASB 2020) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as He also gave to us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has also granted to the Gentiles the repentance that leads to life.”

What did John say would bring life?

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

BTW examine the verses - Acts appears there four times in a manner contrary to your views

So who really is the Acts skipper here

Maybe you should learn Acts 2:38 is not the only verse in the bible. And learn to consider audience

Tom, you hit the power brakes every time at "repent". No follow up context to your verses.

Cherry picking extraordinare.

 

[Truther]

Not as weird as imagining water is capable of doing that

I like the rhetoric of antibaptimalists that say "what if there is no water"?

I have never heard of a living person that has access to no water.

They must be thinking of baptism for cactuses.