Mark 16:16~"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

[TomL]

You read them, but you disavow them and discount the connection made between salvation and baptism.

What I deny is the negation of the verses you quote

There are simply no verses which state if you believe but are not baptized you cannot be saved

and there are no verses which state if you believe and are baptized you cannot be saved unless you additionally confess

 

[Doug Brents]

What I deny is the negation of the verses you quote

There are simply no verses which state if you believe but are not baptized you cannot be saved

and there are no verses which state if you believe and are baptized you cannot be saved unless you additionally confess

If you accept the Bible as the inspired Word of God and that there are no errors or mistakes, then you must accept every verse, every statement, every requirement as additive, not exclusive, of other requirements.

Acts 2:38 links both repentance and baptism with the reception of salvation.
Rom 10:9-10 links both belief and confession with the reception of salvation.
Mark 16:16 links both belief and baptism with the reception of salvation.

If you exclude any of these, then you must ignore, discount, explain away, or negate some of Scripture. But to take them as mutually inclusive there is no conflict. All of them are required, as all of them LEAD TO the reception of salvation.

 

[TomL]

If you accept the Bible as the inspired Word of God and that there are no errors or mistakes, then you must accept every verse, every statement, every requirement as additive, not exclusive, of other requirements.

Acts 2:38 links both repentance and baptism with the reception of salvation.
Rom 10:9-10 links both belief and confession with the reception of salvation.
Mark 16:16 links both belief and baptism with the reception of salvation.

If you exclude any of these, then you must ignore, discount, explain away, or negate some of Scripture. But to take them as mutually inclusive there is no conflict. All of them are required, as all of them LEAD TO the reception of salvation.

And there are no verses which affirm the negation of your verses

In other words there no verses which state he who believes but is not baptized is not saved

No verses which make water baptism an essential without which you cannot be saved

 

[Doug Brents]

And there are no verses which affirm the negation of your verses

In other words there no verses which state he who believes but is not baptized is not saved

No verses which make water baptism an essential without which you cannot be saved

That does not need to be stated, but it is.
John 3:5 says that no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born again through water and the Spirit (that happens in baptism as stated in Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-7).
Matt 10:32-33 says that those who confess Jesus He will confess, but those who deny Him He will deny. There are only those two options. There is no option to not confess Him but not deny Him either.

All are by nature and action condemned. There is only one way to be saved, and that is to be "in Christ". We enter into Christ through baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14). We are washed clean of all spots, blemishes, and sin stains through the washing of water by the Word (Eph 5:26). It is in baptism that our sins are washed away (Acts 22:16). The connection is indisputable without rebellion against God through disbelief of His Word.

 

[TomL]

That does not need to be stated, but it is.
John 3:5 says that no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born again through water and the Spirit (that happens in baptism as stated in Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-7).
Matt 10:32-33 says that those who confess Jesus He will confess, but those who deny Him He will deny. There are only those two options. There is no option to not confess Him but not deny Him either.

All are by nature and action condemned. There is only one way to be saved, and that is to be "in Christ". We enter into Christ through baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14). We are washed clean of all spots, blemishes, and sin stains through the washing of water by the Word (Eph 5:26). It is in baptism that our sins are washed away (Acts 22:16). The connection is indisputable without rebellion against God through disbelief of His Word.

Again you assume your view

I.e. that water baptism is being born of water

thus you teach baptismal regeneration

Born of water can refer to


WATER AND WASHING SPEAK OF INNER CLEANSING - HAVING YOUR SINS FORGIVEN

Psalms 51:7 Proverbs 30:12 Isaiah 1:16 4:4 Zechariah 13:1 1Corinthians 6:11 Ephesians 5:26 Titus 3:5 John 15:3

BORN OF THE WATER - BORN OF THE WORD

Ephesians 5:26 1Peter 1:23 1Corinthians 4:15

The following verses show that "born of water" means born of the Word of God:



a) James 1:18: "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth … "



b) 1 Peter 1:23: "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God … "



c) John 15:3: "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."



d) Ephesians 5:26: "That he (Christ) might sanctify and cleanse it (the church) with the washing of water by the word."



The Word of God (symbolized by water) washes away our sins.

When Jesus referred to being "born of water" in John 3:5, he was speaking to Nicodemus, a Jewish teacher of the scriptures, who probably would have associated the water reference with repentance and spiritual cleansing (Psalms 51:2, Isaiah 1:16,John 7:37-38, Ephesians 5:26, etc.), or perhaps with physical birth, but not with baptism. If this isn’t obvious from John 3:5 and its immediate context, then it is from what Jesus goes on to say. In verses 15, 16, and 18 of John 3, Jesus mentions faith as the means of salvation, and says nothing of water baptism. When John explains why he was writing his gospel (John 20:31), he tells us, "these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name". How do we have life? By believing. As much as advocates of baptismal regeneration may want to add more to that verse, John only mentions "believing" as the means to salvation.

Natural child birth

The above words are found In John 3:5 when Jesus said to Nicodemus "Except a man be born of water and the spirit he cannot see the kingdom of God." This is a stronghold of some of our immersionist friends and yet there is not a drop of water in this text as far as it concerns water baptism. There are not three births mentioned in this conversation of Jesus — only two. If there had been three births then the sentence should have read, "Except a man be born twice more," etc. "Born again" means another time. "Born of water" is a delicate phrase for the natural birth. In the birth of a child when it is not "born of water" otherwise called a "dry birth" It is almost death to a mother. Nicodemus asked Jesus two questions: "How can a man be born when he is old?" and "Can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" Jesus immediately answered in these words: "Except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot see the kingdom of God." Then to more fully explain what He meant, He added, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit Is spirit." In other words. "That which is born of the flesh" woman or womb is flesh. Dr. Edmund B. Fairfield, for a quarter of a century a strong Baptist and one of the best Greek scholars of his day, was requested by a Baptist publishing house to write a book In defense of Baptist views on baptism, etc., which he undertook in good faith, but said that tower after tower of his Baptist fort fell, though he labored for two long years to maintain his old ground. He said he could no longer remain a Baptist minister. He says that "born of water" cannot be interpreted as referring to anything but the natural birth." Again he says: "Now to my mind there is no more allusion to baptism In this verse than to the planet Mars or the French Revolution. It is simply natural birth that is here spoken of. Being ‘born of water was without doubt a well-known form of speech which Christ used in that sense." In defense of this view he quotes Isaiah 48:1: "Hear ye this, oh house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the water of Judah." This refers, he says, to the national descendants of Judah.

finally

And kai is sometimes translated even

thus born of the water even the spirit

BTW seeing as you affirm born of the water refers to water baptism

will you also affirm born of the Spirit is baptism en the Spirit such as received by Cornelius.?

 

[Behold]

There is a Spiritual regeneration that is the "washing of water by the word", and that is the "new Birth".. (Born again)

Then there is water baptism, that gets you wet.

How to understand this..

In Acts 8..

You have Phillip and a Eunuch.. and the Eunuch, wants to be water baptized...

Phillip tells him....sure you can, IF YOU have BELIEVED IN JESUS with all your HEART.. = FIRST.

A.) ""All who call on the name of Jesus, shall be saved".

"Faith (in Christ) is counted by God" once you give it to Him.

THEN......, Phillip says..>" go and get in the water"., as you are already born again., you've already BELIEVED.

 

[Truther]

Um the only one trying to do that would be your side

I can affirm verses which mention and do not mention baptism for forgiveness for sin or salvation

Your side however must deny many verses to posit your view

Sorry totally different context and both are found to be true

You however must deny one verse

If scripture states

John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

you cannot say no because they were not water baptised

Don’t you notice what you are doing Tom? Don’t you notice that you are posting verses to do away with other verses? It’s not like you’re showing the law and the fulfillment between the old and New Testament. You are actually pitting NT verses against each other. You need to learn how to harmonize and not debunk. That’s how all these religions have started anyway.
The end result is teaching unscriptural ideas like the church started during the four gospels. Also, taking sinners to the Epistles and teaching them straight out of the Epistles.

 

[Truther]

There is a Spiritual regeneration that is the "washing of water by the word", and that is the "new Birth".. (Born again)

Then there is water baptism, that gets you wet.

How to understand this..

In Acts 8..

You have Phillip and a Eunuch.. and the Eunuch, wants to be water baptized...

Phillip tells him....sure you can, IF YOU have BELIEVED IN JESUS with all your HEART.. = FIRST.

A.) ""All who call on the name of Jesus, shall be saved".

"Faith (in Christ) is counted by God" once you give it to Him.

THEN......, Phillip says..>" go and get in the water"., as you are already born again., you've already BELIEVED.

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, gets you remission of sins. You all know that. Now if you say in the name of the father son, Holy Ghost, that’s when you’re just getting wet. You must say the name.

 

[Truther]

Again you assume your view

I.e. that water baptism is being born of water

thus you teach baptismal regeneration

Born of water can refer to


WATER AND WASHING SPEAK OF INNER CLEANSING - HAVING YOUR SINS FORGIVEN

Psalms 51:7 Proverbs 30:12 Isaiah 1:16 4:4 Zechariah 13:1 1Corinthians 6:11 Ephesians 5:26 Titus 3:5 John 15:3

BORN OF THE WATER - BORN OF THE WORD

Ephesians 5:26 1Peter 1:23 1Corinthians 4:15

The following verses show that "born of water" means born of the Word of God:



a) James 1:18: "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth … "



b) 1 Peter 1:23: "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God … "



c) John 15:3: "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."



d) Ephesians 5:26: "That he (Christ) might sanctify and cleanse it (the church) with the washing of water by the word."



The Word of God (symbolized by water) washes away our sins.

When Jesus referred to being "born of water" in John 3:5, he was speaking to Nicodemus, a Jewish teacher of the scriptures, who probably would have associated the water reference with repentance and spiritual cleansing (Psalms 51:2, Isaiah 1:16,John 7:37-38, Ephesians 5:26, etc.), or perhaps with physical birth, but not with baptism. If this isn’t obvious from John 3:5 and its immediate context, then it is from what Jesus goes on to say. In verses 15, 16, and 18 of John 3, Jesus mentions faith as the means of salvation, and says nothing of water baptism. When John explains why he was writing his gospel (John 20:31), he tells us, "these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name". How do we have life? By believing. As much as advocates of baptismal regeneration may want to add more to that verse, John only mentions "believing" as the means to salvation.

Natural child birth

The above words are found In John 3:5 when Jesus said to Nicodemus "Except a man be born of water and the spirit he cannot see the kingdom of God." This is a stronghold of some of our immersionist friends and yet there is not a drop of water in this text as far as it concerns water baptism. There are not three births mentioned in this conversation of Jesus — only two. If there had been three births then the sentence should have read, "Except a man be born twice more," etc. "Born again" means another time. "Born of water" is a delicate phrase for the natural birth. In the birth of a child when it is not "born of water" otherwise called a "dry birth" It is almost death to a mother. Nicodemus asked Jesus two questions: "How can a man be born when he is old?" and "Can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" Jesus immediately answered in these words: "Except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot see the kingdom of God." Then to more fully explain what He meant, He added, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit Is spirit." In other words. "That which is born of the flesh" woman or womb is flesh. Dr. Edmund B. Fairfield, for a quarter of a century a strong Baptist and one of the best Greek scholars of his day, was requested by a Baptist publishing house to write a book In defense of Baptist views on baptism, etc., which he undertook in good faith, but said that tower after tower of his Baptist fort fell, though he labored for two long years to maintain his old ground. He said he could no longer remain a Baptist minister. He says that "born of water" cannot be interpreted as referring to anything but the natural birth." Again he says: "Now to my mind there is no more allusion to baptism In this verse than to the planet Mars or the French Revolution. It is simply natural birth that is here spoken of. Being ‘born of water was without doubt a well-known form of speech which Christ used in that sense." In defense of this view he quotes Isaiah 48:1: "Hear ye this, oh house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the water of Judah." This refers, he says, to the national descendants of Judah.

finally

And kai is sometimes translated even

thus born of the water even the spirit

BTW seeing as you affirm born of the water refers to water baptism

will you also affirm born of the Spirit is baptism en the Spirit such as received by Cornelius.?

Are you of the persuasion that teaches that Jesus commanded Cornelius that he must break his mother’s water a.k.a. amniotic fluid to be saved? Jesus taught that?

 

[TomL]

Are you of the persuasion that teaches that Jesus commanded Cornelius that he must break his mother’s water a.k.a. amniotic fluid to be saved? Jesus taught that?

confused comment

conflating the born again by the Holy Spirit with physical birth

 

[TomL]

Don’t you notice what you are doing Tom? Don’t you notice that you are posting verses to do away with other verses? It’s not like you’re showing the law and the fulfillment between the old and New Testament. You are actually pitting NT verses against each other. You need to learn how to harmonize and not debunk. That’s how all these religions have started anyway.
The end result is teaching unscriptural ideas like the church started during the four gospels. Also, taking sinners to the Epistles and teaching them straight out of the Epistles.

No you err

There are no verses which state if you believe and are not water baptised you cannot be saved.

Therefore, I have not done away with other verses

You failed to notice you rail against what you yourself are doing.

You deny many the majority of verses dealing with soteriology to posit your one cannot be saved without water baptism theology

 

[Behold]

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, gets you remission of sins.

It gets you wet.

Let me show you how to understand..

Put Jesus back in Heaven..
He's not come yet.

Now go and get water baptized 3456 times and try to go to heaven.

Understand?

 

[TomL]

It gets you wet.

Let me show you how to understand..

Put Jesus back in Heaven..
He's not come yet.

Now go and get water baptized 3456 times and try to go to heaven.

Understand?

And try not repenting and expect to have your sins remitted

 

[mailmandan]

Again you assume your view

I.e. that water baptism is being born of water

thus you teach baptismal regeneration

Born of water can refer to


WATER AND WASHING SPEAK OF INNER CLEANSING - HAVING YOUR SINS FORGIVEN

Psalms 51:7 Proverbs 30:12 Isaiah 1:16 4:4 Zechariah 13:1 1Corinthians 6:11 Ephesians 5:26 Titus 3:5 John 15:3

BORN OF THE WATER - BORN OF THE WORD

Ephesians 5:26 1Peter 1:23 1Corinthians 4:15

The following verses show that "born of water" means born of the Word of God:



a) James 1:18: "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth … "



b) 1 Peter 1:23: "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God … "



c) John 15:3: "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."



d) Ephesians 5:26: "That he (Christ) might sanctify and cleanse it (the church) with the washing of water by the word."



The Word of God (symbolized by water) washes away our sins.

When Jesus referred to being "born of water" in John 3:5, he was speaking to Nicodemus, a Jewish teacher of the scriptures, who probably would have associated the water reference with repentance and spiritual cleansing (Psalms 51:2, Isaiah 1:16,John 7:37-38, Ephesians 5:26, etc.), or perhaps with physical birth, but not with baptism. If this isn’t obvious from John 3:5 and its immediate context, then it is from what Jesus goes on to say. In verses 15, 16, and 18 of John 3, Jesus mentions faith as the means of salvation, and says nothing of water baptism. When John explains why he was writing his gospel (John 20:31), he tells us, "these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name". How do we have life? By believing. As much as advocates of baptismal regeneration may want to add more to that verse, John only mentions "believing" as the means to salvation.

Natural child birth

The above words are found In John 3:5 when Jesus said to Nicodemus "Except a man be born of water and the spirit he cannot see the kingdom of God." This is a stronghold of some of our immersionist friends and yet there is not a drop of water in this text as far as it concerns water baptism. There are not three births mentioned in this conversation of Jesus — only two. If there had been three births then the sentence should have read, "Except a man be born twice more," etc. "Born again" means another time. "Born of water" is a delicate phrase for the natural birth. In the birth of a child when it is not "born of water" otherwise called a "dry birth" It is almost death to a mother. Nicodemus asked Jesus two questions: "How can a man be born when he is old?" and "Can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" Jesus immediately answered in these words: "Except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot see the kingdom of God." Then to more fully explain what He meant, He added, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit Is spirit." In other words. "That which is born of the flesh" woman or womb is flesh. Dr. Edmund B. Fairfield, for a quarter of a century a strong Baptist and one of the best Greek scholars of his day, was requested by a Baptist publishing house to write a book In defense of Baptist views on baptism, etc., which he undertook in good faith, but said that tower after tower of his Baptist fort fell, though he labored for two long years to maintain his old ground. He said he could no longer remain a Baptist minister. He says that "born of water" cannot be interpreted as referring to anything but the natural birth." Again he says: "Now to my mind there is no more allusion to baptism In this verse than to the planet Mars or the French Revolution. It is simply natural birth that is here spoken of. Being ‘born of water was without doubt a well-known form of speech which Christ used in that sense." In defense of this view he quotes Isaiah 48:1: "Hear ye this, oh house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the water of Judah." This refers, he says, to the national descendants of Judah.

finally

And kai is sometimes translated even

thus born of the water even the spirit

BTW seeing as you affirm born of the water refers to water baptism

will you also affirm born of the Spirit is baptism en the Spirit such as received by Cornelius.?

Amen! In John 3:5, Jesus said born of water and the Spirit. He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit and He also did not say unless one is water baptized, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. In regard to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels water with being born out of a mother’s womb and with flesh based on the answer of Nicodemus to Jesus. Simply stated in that case, two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water") and the second is Spirit.

In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water (which reaches the heart) and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" in order to accommodate a biased church doctrine is unwarranted.

Yet the word "water" is also used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you/that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word.

When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, and we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the washing of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

 

[Behold]

And try not repenting and expect to have your sins remitted

Jesus's sacrifice for our sin is this...

"Jesus is the ONE TIME... ETERNAL... sacrifice for sin".

If you read :

2 Corinthians 5:19
Romans 4:8
John 3:17

You'll find that God charges no sin to any believer.
This is because.

"God hath made JESUS.... TO BE..... SIN....for us".

 

[Doug Brents]

Again you assume your view

I.e. that water baptism is being born of water

thus you teach baptismal regeneration

Born of water can refer to


WATER AND WASHING SPEAK OF INNER CLEANSING - HAVING YOUR SINS FORGIVEN

Psalms 51:7 Proverbs 30:12 Isaiah 1:16 4:4 Zechariah 13:1

These OT references do not apply to NT cleansing. Many of them indicate the coming of Jesus and the cleansing He will bring, but they do not indicate what will be needed (if anything) to receive His blessing.

1Corinthians 6:11

This verse says that we are washed by the Spirit in the name of Jesus. Col 2:11-14 tells us when and how that cleansing occurs: during baptism.

Ephesians 5:26

This verse tells us that it is through the washing of water according to the Word that we are cleansed and made spotless.

Titus 3:5

What is the "washing of regeneration"? Baptism, since baptism saves us (1 Pet 3:21).

John 15:3

This is directed only to the Apostles. And they had been cleansed because of the words He had spoken through their acceptance and obedience to what He directed.

BORN OF THE WATER - BORN OF THE WORD

1Peter 1:23

The Word of God directs us to what it takes to be born again. And that is through baptism.

1Corinthians 4:15

Again, we are born again, begotten, through the instructions found in the Word of God.

The following verses show that "born of water" means born of the Word of God:

a) James 1:18: "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth … "

Born of water is not just being born of the Spirit, but passing through the water as 1 Pet 3:21 says. Born of water AND the Spirit. We must pass through the water which is where we meet the Spirit.

The Word of God (symbolized by water) washes away our sins.

When Jesus referred to being "born of water" in John 3:5, he was speaking to Nicodemus, a Jewish teacher of the scriptures, who probably would have associated the water reference with repentance and spiritual cleansing (Psalms 51:2, Isaiah 1:16,John 7:37-38, Ephesians 5:26, etc.), or perhaps with physical birth, but not with baptism.

Supposition on your part. But we know he was not thinking about original birth, because he asked if one could enter AGAIN into his mother's womb. But it really doesn't matter what Nicodemus understood or believed. We have more references to the NT requirements for salvation than Nicodemus had. He knew the OT backwards and forwards, but he did not understand Jesus' statements. But we can.

If this isn’t obvious from John 3:5 and its immediate context, then it is from what Jesus goes on to say. In verses 15, 16, and 18 of John 3, Jesus mentions faith as the means of salvation, and says nothing of water baptism.

Jesus' mention of faith encompasses all of the actions that are required to receive salvation. The widow in 1 Kings 8-16 had faith in the prophet. How do we know? She gave her last meal to him. If she hadn't had faith in him, then she would have eaten her meal herself, and died. Jesus doesn't need to mention all of the individual requirements every time He mentions salvation. Faith encompasses everything that is required.

When John explains why he was writing his gospel (John 20:31), he tells us, "these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name". How do we have life? By believing. As much as advocates of baptismal regeneration may want to add more to that verse, John only mentions "believing" as the means to salvation.

What is "believing"? It is not just a mental exercise. It is not just accepting that Jesus is the only way to be saved. It is obedience to Him in doing the things that He says lead to/result in receiving salvation.

Natural child birth

The above words are found In John 3:5 when Jesus said to Nicodemus "Except a man be born of water and the spirit he cannot see the kingdom of God." This is a stronghold of some of our immersionist friends and yet there is not a drop of water in this text as far as it concerns water baptism. There are not three births mentioned in this conversation of Jesus — only two. If there had been three births then the sentence should have read, "Except a man be born twice more," etc. "Born again" means another time. "Born of water" is a delicate phrase for the natural birth. In the birth of a child when it is not "born of water" otherwise called a "dry birth" It is almost death to a mother. Nicodemus asked Jesus two questions: "How can a man be born when he is old?" and "Can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" Jesus immediately answered in these words: "Except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot see the kingdom of God." Then to more fully explain what He meant, He added, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit Is spirit." In other words. "That which is born of the flesh" woman or womb is flesh. Dr. Edmund B. Fairfield, for a quarter of a century a strong Baptist and one of the best Greek scholars of his day, was requested by a Baptist publishing house to write a book In defense of Baptist views on baptism, etc., which he undertook in good faith, but said that tower after tower of his Baptist fort fell, though he labored for two long years to maintain his old ground. He said he could no longer remain a Baptist minister. He says that "born of water" cannot be interpreted as referring to anything but the natural birth." Again he says: "Now to my mind there is no more allusion to baptism In this verse than to the planet Mars or the French Revolution. It is simply natural birth that is here spoken of. Being ‘born of water was without doubt a well-known form of speech which Christ used in that sense." In defense of this view he quotes Isaiah 48:1: "Hear ye this, oh house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the water of Judah." This refers, he says, to the national descendants of Judah.

When one is born from his mothers womb, wet or dry, it is his first birth. Jesus is referring to rebirth, the second birth. Being born of water and the Spirit both refer to the second birth, not the first. Unless one is reborn of both water and the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom. And there is only one rebirth, of both water and the Spirit. The Spirit taking action to remove our sins and unite us with Jesus resurrection during baptism (Col 2)

BTW seeing as you affirm born of the water refers to water baptism

will you also affirm born of the Spirit is baptism en the Spirit such as received by Cornelius.?

Both the water and the Spirit are required for rebirth. Cornelius did not receive "baptism en the Spirit" when the Spirit fell ON him in tongues and praise. He received "baptism en the Spirit" the same way everyone else in the NT era does: during water baptism.

 

[Behold]

In case anyone wants to know.....

Q.) who created the doctrine of.. "water washes away your sin", vs "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin"?

Who changed (denied) the Blood of Christ into: = WATER saves?


A.) THE CULT OF MARY. = "Catholic. The "cult of Mary" is what the CC was titled about 4ad, as its original title.

Where does this "water saves you" heresy come from specifically?

From the Catholic Bible....the Douay Rheims.

John 3.

The cult of mary "water saves" bible.. says..

You are "Born again..... BY water".

Born again "BY Water".

And that is a CROSS DENYING LIE, as you are not born again "BY" water.

You are born again "by my SPIRIT, sayeth the Lord", = The Holy Spirit., as that is the "washing of regeneration".. not the city water supply.

 

[TomL]

Again you assume your view

I.e. that water baptism is being born of water

thus you teach baptismal regeneration

Born of water can refer to


WATER AND WASHING SPEAK OF INNER CLEANSING - HAVING YOUR SINS FORGIVEN

Psalms 51:7 Proverbs 30:12 Isaiah 1:16 4:4 Zechariah 13:1

Doug Brents​

These OT references do not apply to NT cleansing. Many of them indicate the coming of Jesus and the cleansing He will bring, but they do not indicate what will be needed (if anything) to receive His blessing.

Newsflash these were being practiced while Christ was on the earth

1Corinthians 6:11

Doug Brents​

This verse says that we are washed by the Spirit in the name of Jesus. Col 2:11-14 tells us when and how that cleansing occurs: during baptism.

1 Corinthians 6:11 (NASB 2020) — 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

No mention of water baptism there

Ephesians 5:26

Doug Brents​

This verse tells us that it is through the washing of water according to the Word that we are cleansed and made spotless.

Ephesians 5:26 (NASB 2020) — 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

it's the word which effects the cleansing

Titus 3:5

Doug Brents​

What is the "washing of regeneration"? Baptism, since baptism saves us (1 Pet 3:21).

Titus 3:5 (NASB 2020) — 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we did in righteousness, but in accordance with His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

It is regeneration by the spirit which saves

John 15:3

Doug Brents​

This is directed only to the Apostles. And they had been cleansed because of the words He had spoken through their acceptance and obedience to what He directed.

Is that your confession the word cleanses

BORN OF THE WATER - BORN OF THE WORD

1Peter 1:23

Doug Brents​

The Word of God directs us to what it takes to be born again. And that is through baptism.

1 Peter 1:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable, but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

not a drop of water in the verse

1Corinthians 4:15

Doug Brents​

Again, we are born again, begotten, through the instructions found in the Word of God.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (NASB 2020) — 15 For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

They were begotten by the gospel not water

The following verses show that "born of water" means born of the Word of God:

a) James 1:18: "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth … "

Doug Brents​

Born of water is not just being born of the Spirit, but passing through the water as 1 Pet 3:21 says. Born of water AND the Spirit. We must pass through the water which is where we meet the Spirit.

There was no water in James 1:18 just the eord of truth

The Word of God (symbolized by water) washes away our sins.

When Jesus referred to being "born of water" in John 3:5, he was speaking to Nicodemus, a Jewish teacher of the scriptures, who probably would have associated the water reference with repentance and spiritual cleansing (Psalms 51:2, Isaiah 1:16,John 7:37-38, Ephesians 5:26, etc.), or perhaps with physical birth, but not with baptism.

Doug Brents​

Supposition on your part. But we know he was not thinking about original birth, because he asked if one could enter AGAIN into his mother's womb. But it really doesn't matter what Nicodemus understood or believed. We have more references to the NT requirements for salvation than Nicodemus had. He knew the OT backwards and forwards, but he did not understand Jesus' statements. But we can.

funny you should speak of supposition when you assumed water baptism in passage after passage

but how you dismiss the idea of physical birth when he asks

John 3:4 (NASB 2020) — 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a person be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?”

is rather telling

If this isn’t obvious from John 3:5 and its immediate context, then it is from what Jesus goes on to say. In verses 15, 16, and 18 of John 3, Jesus mentions faith as the means of salvation, and says nothing of water baptism.

Doug Brents​

Jesus' mention of faith encompasses all of the actions that are required to receive salvation. The widow in 1 Kings 8-16 had faith in the prophet. How do we know? She gave her last meal to him. If she hadn't had faith in him, then she would have eaten her meal herself, and died. Jesus doesn't need to mention all of the individual requirements every time He mentions salvation. Faith encompasses everything that is required.

sorry but

John 3:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

posits faith of itself is sufficient for salvation

Your one cannot be saved without water baptism theology must falsify this verse, for there is no mention of water in the verse

When John explains why he was writing his gospel (John 20:31), he tells us, "these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name". How do we have life? By believing. As much as advocates of baptismal regeneration may want to add more to that verse, John only mentions "believing" as the means to salvation.

Doug Brents​

What is "believing"? It is not just a mental exercise. It is not just accepting that Jesus is the only way to be saved. It is obedience to Him in doing the things that He says lead to/result in receiving salvation


Believing does mean be water baptised no matter how badly your theology requires it

 

[Doug Brents]

Newsflash these were being practiced while Christ was on the earth

And Christ lived His entire life under the OT. The New Covenant did not start until His resurrection at the earliest, Pentecost at the latest.

1 Corinthians 6:11 (NASB 2020) — 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

No mention of water baptism there

There doesn't need to be mention of baptism here. These people knew that they had been justified by the Holy Spirit when they were baptized into Christ.

Ephesians 5:26 (NASB 2020) — 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

it's the word which effects the cleansing

How does the Word say it effects our cleansing? Through baptism.

Titus 3:5 (NASB 2020) — 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we did in righteousness, but in accordance with His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

It is regeneration by the spirit which saves

And when does the Spirit do the regeneration? During baptism.

Is that your confession the word cleanses

They were cleansed because of their faith, their obedience to Him because of their acceptance of what He taught.

1 Peter 1:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable, but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

not a drop of water in the verse

Again, when does the Word of God say we are saved? When we are baptized into Christ.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (NASB 2020) — 15 For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

They were begotten by the gospel not water

Again, when does the Word of God say we are saved? When we are baptized into Christ.

There was no water in James 1:18 just the eord of truth

If you demand that every passage that mentions salvation list every step in the process to become saved, then the Bible would be 100 times larger than it is. It is not necessary to list every step necessary in each place. If it is mentioned once, it is set in stone and cannot be changed by you or me.

funny you should speak of supposition when you assumed water baptism in passage after passage

but how you dismiss the idea of physical birth when he asks

John 3:4 (NASB 2020) — 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a person be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?”

is rather telling

He is obviously not talking about original birth, because he asks how one can reenter his mothers womb when he is OLD. Yes, he is thinking of natural birth, not spiritual birth, but the water here does not and cannot refer back to one's original birth.

sorry but

John 3:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

posits faith of itself is sufficient for salvation

Your one cannot be saved without water baptism theology must falsify this verse, for there is no mention of water in the verse

No, it does not falsify this verse, or any other that only mentions "belief". Again, one does not really believe if one does not obey. Belief in most places in the NT comes from "pistis" with means faith.

Believing does mean be water baptised no matter how badly your theology requires it

Believing (pistis in the Greek) means faith. And faith without action is dead, worthless, meaningless, does not exist. People who think they "believe" but do not take action on their "belief" don't really believe.

 

[Truther]

confused comment

conflating the born again by the Holy Spirit with physical birth

So, Jesus said a man must be born of a womans water breaking to obtain salvation.

Mkay.

Deep theology.