Mark 16:16~"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

[Truther]

No you err

There are no verses which state if you believe and are not water baptised you cannot be saved.

Therefore, I have not done away with other verses

You failed to notice you rail against what you yourself are doing.

You deny many the majority of verses dealing with soteriology to posit your one cannot be saved without water baptism theology

You post the gospels, then skip Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19, then post epistles to the saved saints.....all to disobey Acts 2:38.

Oh, so Catholic.

 

[Truther]

It gets you wet.

Let me show you how to understand..

Put Jesus back in Heaven..
He's not come yet.

Now go and get water baptized 3456 times and try to go to heaven.

Understand?

Only wet?...


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...


Is that what you would have told them at Pentecost if you were Peter?

 

[Truther]

It gets you wet.

Let me show you how to understand..

Put Jesus back in Heaven..
He's not come yet.

Now go and get water baptized 3456 times and try to go to heaven.

Understand?

Only wet?...


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...


Is that what you would have told them at Pentecost if you were Peter?

 

[TomL]

You post the gospels, then skip Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19, then post epistles to the saved saints.....all to disobey Acts 2:38.

Oh, so Catholic.

Newsflash none of them say you cannot be saved without water baptism

Acts 8 water baptism failed to convey the spirit

Acts 10 The Spirit was received previous to water baptism as was life

Acts 19 neither John's baptism or baptism in the name of the lord conveyed the spirit. The spirit was received by the laying on of hands

You seem to have missed quite a few facts

 

[TomL]

So, Jesus said a man must be born of a womans water breaking to obtain salvation.

Mkay.

Deep theology.

nope

One must be born of the spirit to be born again

There are two birth one physical the other of the Spirit

The bible is clear it is the spirit which makes alive

Water does not

 

[TomL]

1 Corinthians 6:11 (NASB 2020) — 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

No mention of water baptism there

Doug Brents​

There doesn't need to be mention of baptism here. These people knew that they had been justified by the Holy Spirit when they were baptized into Christ.

Assumption regarding what people knew does not serve as evidence

Ephesians 5:26 (NASB 2020) — 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

it's the word which effects the cleansing

Doug Brents​

How does the Word say it effects our cleansing? Through baptism.

Again no where stated

Repentence leads to remission of sin

Acts 10:43 (NASB 2020) — 43 All the prophets testify of Him, that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Titus 3:5 (NASB 2020) — 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we did in righteousness, but in accordance with His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

It is regeneration by the spirit which saves

Doug Brents​

And when does the Spirit do the regeneration? During baptism.

Not for the Samaritans, not for the gentiles not for the band in Acts ch 19

You are assuming your view once again

Is that your confession the word cleanses

Doug Brents​

They were cleansed because of their faith, their obedience to Him because of their acceptance of what He taught.

and not by water

1 Peter 1:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable, but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

not a drop of water in the verse

Doug Brents​

Again, when does the Word of God say we are saved? When we are baptized into Christ.

Water does not baptize you into Christ. The Spirit does

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (NASB 2020) — 15 For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

They were begotten by the gospel not water

Doug Brents​

Again, when does the Word of God say we are saved? When we are baptized into Christ.

Again the Spirit not water baptism baptizes one into Christ

There was no water in James 1:18 just the eord of truth

Doug Brents​

If you demand that every passage that mentions salvation list every step in the process to become saved, then the Bible would be 100 times larger than it is. It is not necessary to list every step necessary in each place. If it is mentioned once, it is set in stone and cannot be changed by you or me.

Every? All you have done is read water into verse after verse where it does not appear

funny you should speak of supposition when you assumed water baptism in passage after passage

but how you dismiss the idea of physical birth when he asks

John 3:4 (NASB 2020) — 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a person be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?”

is rather telling

Doug Brents​

He is obviously not talking about original birth, because he asks how one can reenter his mothers womb when he is OLD. Yes, he is thinking of natural birth, not spiritual birth, but the water here does not and cannot refer back to one's original birth.

Duh that is actually evidence physical birth was in view

sorry but

John 3:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

posits faith of itself is sufficient for salvation

Your one cannot be saved without water baptism theology must falsify this verse, for there is no mention of water in the verse

Doug Brents​

No, it does not falsify this verse, or any other that only mentions "belief". Again, one does not really believe if one does not obey. Belief in most places in the NT comes from "pistis" with means faith.

Of course, it does. Faith can exist without water baptism

Or are you now going to argue water baptism brings faith now

Believing does not mean be water baptised no matter how badly your theology requires it

Doug Brents​

Believing (pistis in the Greek) means faith. And faith without action is dead, worthless, meaningless, does not exist. People who think they "believe" but do not take action on their "belief" don't really believe.

Newsflash water baptism does not make faith alive

Living faith precedes any action it leads to

 

[Behold]

Is that what you would have told them at Pentecost if you were Peter?

If you read a bible, you'll not that in Acts 2, Peter was not water baptized.
None in the upper room, were water baptized yet the "gift of Tongues' came.

So, when did the 11 Apostles receive the Holy Spirit, and they were not water baptized when they received.

It was before Pentecost.

Read John 20:22.

NO WATER FOUND, and they all received the Holy Spirit.
And note that Jesus didnt tell them to go and get wet.

 

[Doug Brents]

Assumption regarding what people knew does not serve as evidence

There still doesn't need to be mention of baptism in every mention of salvation in Scripture.

Again no where stated

Repentence leads to remission of sin

Acts 10:43 (NASB 2020) — 43 All the prophets testify of Him, that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Repentance does indeed, but so does baptism as Acts 2:38 tells us. "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Mailmandan will try to tell you that "for the remission of sins" refers only to repent, but that is absolute nonsense. If anything, the phrase refers back to the most recent action, "be baptized", and not to repent. But we know from Acts 10:43 above, and from Acts 3:19 that repentance is also a requirement for receiving forgiveness of sin. So BOTH repentance and baptism are requirements for receiving salvation.

Not for the Samaritans, not for the gentiles not for the band in Acts ch 19

That is your own false assumption. By your own theology, when one believes in Jesus he is saved, forgiven, and justified. When one is justified he receives the indwelling of the Spirit. The Samaritans had believed and been baptized into Christ; thus they had been saved, forgiven, and justified, and had the indwelling of the Spirit. The only thing they did not have yet was the miraculous working of the Spirit, and that is what they received from Peter and John.
The Gentiles with Cornelius were the exact opposite: they had received the miraculous working of the Spirit, but had not yet been saved, forgiven, or justified, and had not yet received the indwelling of the Spirit. That they received when they were baptized into Jesus that same day.
The men in Acts 19:1-7 were not saved when they first met Apollos. They had only received John's baptism and did not know about Jesus. But when Apollos taught them about Jesus, they believed, were baptized, and received forgiveness and the indwelling. Then he laid his hands on them and they received miraculous workings of the Spirit.

and not by water

We are not told when the Apostles (except for Paul) were baptized into Christ. It may have been by each other when they were baptizing others during Jesus' ministry. Or it may have been at Pentecost. We don't know. But we can be sure that they were baptized into Christ.

Water does not baptize you into Christ. The Spirit does

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

And when and how does He do that? During baptism.
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death [baptism], certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin." - Rom 6:1-7
"In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." - Col 2:11-14
It is during baptism that we die to sin, are united with Jesus' death and resurrection, and are made alive together with Him.

Again the Spirit not water baptism baptizes one into Christ

Again, He does so during water baptism.

Every? All you have done is read water into verse after verse where it does not appear

It appears there because it is stated in other places in Scripture that point to these other places. 1 Pet 3:21 says clearly that we are saved through baptism in water, thus the baptism mentioned in other places in Scripture that mention baptism in connection with salvation is water baptism.

Duh that is actually evidence physical birth was in view

Physical "rebirth", not original birth. But it is not physical rebirth or original birth that Jesus is talking about. It is baptism in water where we are reborn in Christ as described in 1 Pet 3:21, Col 2, and Rom 6.

Of course, it does. Faith can exist without water baptism

Or are you now going to argue water baptism brings faith now

Faith in a chair that it can hold your weight exists without water baptism, but you do have to put you butt in the chair in trust that it will hold you. Faith in Christ demands that you do what He says will save you. And He said that repentance, confession of Him as Lord, and baptism cause us to receive salvation.

Newsflash water baptism does not make faith alive

Living faith precedes any action it leads to

That is not what James says, nor how the Hebrew writer defines it in Heb 11:1 - "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." And it is clear from Eph 2:8-9 that this living, active faith must precede our reception of salvation, since it is through faith that we receive salvation. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God".

 

[Behold]

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God".

What is not of yourselves is the "SAVED", as that is God doing it as the GIFT.

And how does He do it?

He accepts your FAITH... as "Faith comes by hearing".....the Gospel............not by being made to believe.

And once God accepts YOUR FAITH...........He then gives you "the GIFT of Salvation" that is "THe Gift of Righteousness" that is "The Gift of Eternal Life".

You have to give Him Faith in Christ that YOU CHOSE, and then He accepts YOUR FAITH.. .to the Deliver = Salvation Through YOUR Faith.

 

[Doug Brents]

What is not of yourselves is the "SAVED", as that is God doing it as the GIFT.

And how does He do it?

He accepts your FAITH... as "Faith comes by hearing".....the Gospel............not by being made to believe.

And once God accepts YOUR FAITH...........He then gives you "the GIFT of Salvation" that is "THe Gift of Righteousness" that is "The Gift of Eternal Life".

You have to give Him Faith in Christ that YOU CHOSE, and then He accepts YOUR FAITH.. .to the Deliver = Salvation Through YOUR Faith.

And what is faith? Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen (Heb 11:1). The soul gives life to the body, just as our actions give life to our faith (James 2:26). If there is no action, then there is no true, real, alive faith. Dead faith cannot save, and a faith that does not produce action is dead. It is through our actions in obedience to God's directions to what saves us that we receive the promised salvation. What you said above is true so long as you understand that faith is not just an intellectual acceptance of the truth of the Gospel, but an active participation in the actions that God says lead to receiving salvation.

 

[Truther]

Newsflash none of them say you cannot be saved without water baptism

Acts 8 water baptism failed to convey the spirit

Acts 10 The Spirit was received previous to water baptism as was life

Acts 19 neither John's baptism or baptism in the name of the lord conveyed the spirit. The spirit was received by the laying on of hands

You seem to have missed quite a few facts

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ...

Remission of sins is not connected to salvation?

 

[Truther]

nope

One must be born of the spirit to be born again

There are two birth one physical the other of the Spirit

The bible is clear it is the spirit which makes alive

Water does not

How can one be born again without first dying(repentance) and being baptized in the name of Jesus(buried)?

Does the Holy Ghost kill and bury us?

 

[Truther]

If you read a bible, you'll not that in Acts 2, Peter was not water baptized.
None in the upper room, were water baptized yet the "gift of Tongues' came.

So, when did the 11 Apostles receive the Holy Spirit, and they were not water baptized when they received.

It was before Pentecost.

Read John 20:22.

NO WATER FOUND, and they all received the Holy Spirit.
And note that Jesus didnt tell them to go and get wet.

So, Peter told the 3000 at Pentecost "rules for thee but not for me"?

 

[TomL]

How can one be born again without first dying(repentance) and being baptized in the name of Jesus(buried)?

Does the Holy Ghost kill and bury us?

Water does not cause you to die to sin. That is a function of the spirit

 

[Truther]

You all do realize that you are fighting Acts 2:38 like a good Catholic daughter, right?

 

[Truther]

Water does not cause you to die to sin. That is a function of the spirit

The Spirit kills?

You teach that?

 

[Truther]

We die(we repent).

We are buried with Jesus(by baptism in the name of Jesus).

God resurrects us via the Holy Ghost.

Can't skip any of it.

 

[Behold]

Dead faith

Dead faith is what a believer has, and NO FAITH is what an unbeliever has.

James is talking about the dead faith of a BORN AGAIN... not an unbeliever.

So, Dead faith... is the same as Jesus is referring to as being "lukewarm"..

Its not that the person is not saved, its that the person is just away from their discipleship.
James told those who have this dead faith....'"I"ll show you my FAITH, by my WORKS"..
And they have none, and that is why he said "you have dead faith".

But that is not dead salvation..... as being BORN AGAIN, is always continuing.

Also, the fact that faith can become "dead", proves that its not God's Faith, as if was God's it would not be dead.

The reason a believers faith can become dead is because they get caught up in LIFE, the world, the fun, ..... and they grow cold to spiritual things, = dead faith.

The correct word for this is "Back-slidden".

 

[TomL]

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ...

Remission of sins is not connected to salvation?

Acts 3:19–20 (ESV) — 19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus,

repentance brings remission of sin and life

Acts 11:18 (ESV) — 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Water baptism is a sign of the cleanliness accomplished by repentance

Luke 24:47 (ESV) — 47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Acts 10:43 (ESV) — 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 5:31 (ESV) — 31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

2 Corinthians 7:10 (ESV) — 10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

 

[Behold]

Water baptism is a sign of the cleanliness accomplished by repentance

The dying thief on the Cross is in heaven, and he was not water baptized.

An unbeliever can be water baptized.

Water Baptism gets you wet.....its SYMBOLIC......and nothing more.

The old man of sin is dead..>"dunked under the water" (buried)

The new man is raised in newness of Life...."up you come out of the water".. (risen in Christ) = . somebody hand them a dry towel...>"next".