Just because a gentile becomes Born-Again......

jeremiah1five said:
Look at the language.
First, you ignore that there are circumcised Gentile proselytes and God-Fearers. Although these Gentiles have committed themselves to obeying God's Torah and to live and raise their families to live as and with the Jews, never does the Jews see these converts to Judaism as part of the Abrahamic or Mosaic Covenants because in Genesis 17 where the covenant with Abraham and his seed is described it says the covenant is with Abraham the Hebrew (Genesis 14:13) and HIS SEED, these converts are not the seed of Abraham. They may be joined to the commonwealth of Israel as citizens, but they are still "strangers to the covenant." They are citizens with Israel but because they are Gentile and NOT the seed of Abraham or of his offspring.

Now, go to where the covenant is described in Genesis 17. There is no mention of Gentiles (non-Hebrew) in this covenant. God made covenant with Abraham and his seed and Gentiles are not his seed. Isaac is his seed. Jacob is his seed. And from Jacob comes the twelve tribes or sons which God delivered from Egypt and in the desert, God makes a new covenant with the Hebrews (children of Israel) in which He gives this people His Law which teach them how to worship God and to live among themselves. Again, there is no mention of Gentiles in ANY of the Jewish covenants.
None.
Click to expand...
read the verses and note the context

Ephesians 2:11–22 (NASB 2020) — 11 Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who previously were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the hostility, which is the Law composed of commandments expressed in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two one new person, in this way establishing peace; 16 and that He might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the hostility. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Maybe you should get your theology from scripture

Gentiles are no longer strangers to the covenants of promise.

they were strangers to the covenant not Jewish proselytes, and it was in Christ i.e. under the new covenant they were no more strangers
 
TomL said:
read the verses and note the context

Ephesians 2:11–22 (NASB 2020) — 11 Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who previously were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the hostility, which is the Law composed of commandments expressed in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two one new person, in this way establishing peace; 16 and that He might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the hostility. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Maybe you should get your theology from scripture

Gentiles are no longer strangers to the covenants of promise.

they were strangers to the covenant not Jewish proselytes, and it was in Christ i.e. under the new covenant they were no more strangers
Click to expand...
You are wrong on so many counts. You must be reading from a 'fake' Bible. My Messianic Bible says differently.
 
koberstein said:
You are wrong on so many counts. You must be reading from a 'fake' Bible. My Messianic Bible says differently.
Click to expand...
Seeing as I have about 100 translations and can prove my view from any of them more likely you are reading from a fake bible or you simply read in error being driven by biases you are not able to control

read the verses and note the context

Ephesians 2:11–22 (NASB 2020) — 11 Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who previously were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the hostility, which is the Law composed of commandments expressed in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two one new person, in this way establishing peace; 16 and that He might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the hostility. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:11–19 (ESV) — 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

Ephesians 2:11–19 (LSB) — 11 Therefore, remember that formerly you—the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time without Christ, alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups one and broke down the dividing wall of the partition 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might create the two into one new man, making peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, having in Himself put to death the enmity. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED THE GOOD NEWS OF PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,




Maybe you should get your theology from scripture

Gentiles are no longer strangers to the covenants of promise.

they were strangers to the covenant not Jewish proselytes, and it was in Christ i.e. under the new covenant they were no more strangers
 
brightfame52 said:
Gentiles are included in the Covenant Promises. Isa 42,46

You are trusting in the flesh.
Click to expand...
God does not violate His Word even though you teach that He does. You make God out to be a liar.
Here is what God says about Abram the Hebrew and the covenant that bears his name.
God says that His covenant with Abram the Hebrew is between Himself, Abraham, and Abraham's seed, or those that through offspring "come out of thee" (Abraham and Sarah), and non-Hebrews do not come "out of" a Hebrew man and his cousin, a Hebrew woman. Quite impossible. So, Gentiles do not come "out of" Abraham and Sarah who were both descendants of Eber and a people, thanks to Salah, separated unto God.

Now, here is something God said through the prophet Isaiah:

1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob,
And he that formed thee, O Israel,
Fear not: for I have redeemed thee,
I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.
2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee;
And through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee:
When thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned;
Neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.
3 For I am the LORD thy God,
The Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:
Isaiah 43:1–3.

The only people God redeemed is Israel. Gentiles (non-Hebrews) have not been called by God nor have anyone, but Israel been redeemed. God declares Himself the Holy One of Israel, NOT the Holy One of Gentiles. God's covenants are with Abraham and his seed, Hebrews that "come out of thee" as declared in the covenant that bears his name found in Genesis 15 and 17.
Stop making God out to be a liar, which is what you do when you say "Gentiles (non-Hebrews) are part of the Abrahamic Covenant."
They are not. Never have been and never will be.
 
koberstein said:
No you are trusting in 'fake' biblical translations. No Gentiles are included in
Covenant Promises. At best they are grafted into the Messianic Olive Tree through Yeshua.
Click to expand...
No, no. Nowhere in the Hebrew Scripture does God call Gentiles (non-Hebrews) an Olive tree.
Only Israel is God's Olive tree.
Only Israel.
 
koberstein said:
Another ignorant Gentile trying to steal my Covenant Promises.
Click to expand...
They've been doing that ever since Gentiles destroyed the Jewish Temple and nearly all the cities and towns in Israel.
Gentiles have done that for nearly 1900 years.
But one day they will receive a rude awakening and Scripture prophesies that God will bring ALL nations (Gentiles, including Gentile "Christians") against Israel in Zechariah 14 (and elsewhere.)
 
jeremiah1five said:
God does not violate His Word even though you teach that He does. You make God out to be a liar.
Here is what God says about Abram the Hebrew and the covenant that bears his name.
God says that His covenant with Abram the Hebrew is between Himself, Abraham, and Abraham's seed, or those that through offspring "come out of thee" (Abraham and Sarah), and non-Hebrews do not come "out of" a Hebrew man and his cousin, a Hebrew woman. Quite impossible. So, Gentiles do not come "out of" Abraham and Sarah who were both descendants of Eber and a people, thanks to Salah, separated unto God.

Now, here is something God said through the prophet Isaiah:

1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob,
And he that formed thee, O Israel,
Fear not: for I have redeemed thee,
I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.
2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee;
And through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee:
When thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned;
Neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.
3 For I am the LORD thy God,
The Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:
Isaiah 43:1–3.

The only people God redeemed is Israel. Gentiles (non-Hebrews) have not been called by God nor have anyone, but Israel been redeemed. God declares Himself the Holy One of Israel, NOT the Holy One of Gentiles. God's covenants are with Abraham and his seed, Hebrews that "come out of thee" as declared in the covenant that bears his name found in Genesis 15 and 17.
Stop making God out to be a liar, which is what you do when you say "Gentiles (non-Hebrews) are part of the Abrahamic Covenant."
They are not. Never have been and never will be.
Click to expand...
Gentiles are included in the Covenant Promises. Isa 42,46

You are trusting in the flesh.
 
jeremiah1five said:
No, no. Nowhere in the Hebrew Scripture does God call Gentiles (non-Hebrews) an Olive tree.
Only Israel is God's Olive tree.
Only Israel.
Click to expand...
I believe in the Olive Tree Theology. The following analysis will show that the separation between the
Church and the Jewish people, as it has developed over the last 2000 years, is completely out of
God's will, a terrible mistake, what is called the worst schism in history. We will see it is our task to
rectify that mistake, to throw ourselves fully into what Judaism calls tikkun-ha'olam, literally
"fixing up the world," repairing it. According to Jewish tradition such activity hastens the coming of
Messiah; and this corresponds to what Kefa [Peter] encourages believers in Yeshua to do, namely,
to hasten the coming of the Day of God. 2 Kefa [2 Peter] 3:12 I call this approach the
"Olive Tree theology," after Sha'ul's [Paul's] allegory in Romans 11:16-26, addressed to Gentile
Christians: Now if the challah (loaf or cake made for Shabbat) offered as firstfruits is holy, so is
the whole loaf. And if the root is holy, so are the branches. But if some of the branches were
broken off, and you---a wild olive---were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers
in the rich root of the olive tree, then don't boast that you are better than the branches!
However, if you do boast, remember you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you.
So you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. 'True, but so what? They were
broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of trust. So don't
be ignorant; on the contrary be terrified! For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly
won't spare you!

When Yeshua came, he was at the center of the tree, at the center of the Jewish people, the quintessential
Jew as well as the quintessential man. He gathered Jewish disciples around him. He died, rose from the
grave, and ascended into heaven. The Messianic Jewish community grew---a hundred and twenty (Acts 1:15),
three thousand (Acts 2:41), five thousand (Acts 4:4), "and their numbers kept multiplying" (Acts 9:31).
The non-Messianic Jews reacted against the Messianic Jews, pushing them away from the center (Acts 4-9, 12),
Meanwhile, the message spread to the Gentiles---Cornelius (Acts 10).

Although Messianic Jews in Jerusalem alone came to number "tens of thousand,....all zealots for the Torah,"
Sha'ul's travels (Acts 13-28) and other missionary outreaches soon made Gentiles a majority in the Church.
Nevertheless, the Jewish believers will still accepted by the Jewish people as part of the Jewish community.

The Spanish Inquisition scrutinized Catholics of Jewish origin to see whether they retained Jewish customs.
Out of Gentile distaste for Jewishness emerged persecution of Jews----Crusades, Inquisition, pograms,
Nazi Germany (yes, there was Christian involvement, both for evil and for good)---with all the pain and
ugliness that Jews cannot forget, and the Church will not be permitted to forget until all Christians
(not just some) learn the lesson.

So until very recently the Jewish people and the Church have remained separate, with no place for
Messianic Judaism, since both the majority of Jews (unsaved people whose experience with the
Church had been mostly negative) and the majority of Christians (Gentiles who misunderstood their
own faith as it relates to the Jewish people) wanted it that way.

It is the task of Messianic Jews and of sympathetic Gentile Christians to undertake the tikkum-ha'olam
of which I spoke earlier. These are the ones who, because of their common trust in the Jewish Messiah
Yeshua, can work together to undo the damage caused by the division of the Jewish people and the
Church into two apparently separate peoples of God. The Jewish people must be brought to understand
freely, willingly, not by coercion or deception---that the age old goals of Jewish endeavor will be achieved
only when the Jewish people come to understand and trust in Yeshua, the Jewish Messiah.
The Church must be brought to understand freely, willingly, not by coercion or deception---that its goals
will be achieved only when any form of overt or covert antisemitism or stand-offishness has disappeared,
and intimate unity with the Jewish people has been acknowledged.

Can there be a grander goal? We live in an exciting age, as we see the momentum of history sweeping
toward the fulfillment of Sha'ul's prophecy that all Israel will be saved. And as we work toward accomplishing
that end, it is essential that we be armed with the right understanding of the relationship between Israel
and the Church

Shabbat Shalom20240406_100020.jpg20240406_095945.jpg
 
jeremiah1five said:
Does not mean they become joined or are included into the Abrahamic or Mosaic Covenants.

Let's be honest here. The New Covenant prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is between God and the House of Israel. There are no Gentiles mentioned in this covenant. The New Covenant came into fulfilled existence on the day of the Jewish Feast of Harvest which is also called Pentecost. Three thousand Jews were born-again that day. Acts 2:47 says "Christ added to His Church daily such as should be saved" which means more Jews became born-again and saved as per the New Covenant content.

When a Gentile becomes born-again, they are joined to Christ. When a Jew becomes born again, they are joined to Christ and remain in the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants. This was the issue with Jewish Christians who were concerned about their standing in the Abrahamic Covenant. So, Saul writes:

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [Jews] be Christ’s, then are ye [Jews STILL] Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Gal. 3:28–29.

The "Greek" here refers to Gentile proselytes who were closest to Judaism and the Jewish nation through their circumcision and vows to the Torah. Every other non-proselyte Greek was opposed to Israel and had nothing to do with the Jews. They were two separate communities. They did not mingle with each other. The Jews saw them as unclean. And they were. But oh, you say, Judaism is no longer or passed away. Not so. For the four decades that followed Pentecost everything that happened in Jerusalem and Israel happened to the Jews and Gentile proselytes and also God-Fearers such as Cornelius until the destruction of the Jewish Temple and then God began to bring in Gentiles. And then what happened?
In time Gentiles took over what belonged to Israel and stole their covenants and promises and prophecies and made them their own. And for 1900 years they re-interpret history and taught God "cast away His people" and replaced them with the Gentile "Church." All one need to do is read the writings that came later by Gentiles.

And the "heirs according to the promise"? The only people that possessed the promise and were heirs to it were the Jews. So, it's clear that Saul is writing to Jewish Christians who had concerns about their standing in the Abrahamic covenant specifically, and their relationship to God in general.

But just because a Gentile is born again does not mean they are now in the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants. That would be impossible because these covenants were made with Abraham and His seed and Gentiles are NOT his seed. Be honest about it. But oh, "when we become Christian, we are added to the covenant." WHERE in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets does it say that? The Hebrews Scriptures are the central hub of everything that happens to Israel, not the New Covenant writings. All New Covenant events during the four decades before the destruction of the Temple was a Jewish phenomenon, not Gentile. Just because a few uncircumcised, non-covenant Gentiles became born again and the Jews held a council in Jerusalem to deal with this fact, what was their decision? They were told to follow certain precepts of the Mosaic Law. Why did they direct them to the Law? Because it was THEIR covenant and they had to muddle through it the best they could. But when the Romans came and destroyed their nation and their Temple God's clock didn't stop. Now, it was time to bring in Gentiles in greater number.

Any born-again Gentile since the destruction of the Temple - and even before - were joined to Christ not the covenants. And there is a difference. Because when the Times of the Gentiles ends, and it will end with the destruction of Gentile nations whether through nuclear war or some cataclysmic event from space, the majority of these nations all contain Gentile Christians. Israel is the House of God. If you want to claim to be in the House of God and thereby in the covenants through Christ, then accept what's coming. Because what's coming is judgment that begins in the House of God. There is no escape. There is no rapture. The end-time prophecy to Israel - the "book" of Revelations - mentions nothing about a rapture. God has no covenant with Gentiles. Why would God remove Gentile believers from the judgment coming upon the world when judgment begins in the House of God? Contradiction.

Gentiles that are born-again are joined to Christ, NOT any of the Hebrew Covenants and do you know why?
Because you are NOT Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise God made with Hebrews/Jews. Not even Gentile proselytes were seen as being in covenant with God. That's because they are not the seed of Abraham. But oh, we are "spiritual" Israel. Again, NO. When the Holy Spirit began to baptize Jews into Christ [="anointing"] they became spiritual Israel. And spiritual Israel is natural Israel.
May God open your Gentile eyes to see that for 1900 years Gentiles have stolen Israel's covenants and their inheritance. Stop the Steal, as it has been said with regard to the 2020 presidential election. Now apply it to Israel's election before God. It's their covenants. It's their inheritance. It's their Scriptures. He's their Messiah, not yours. If anything, you're only enjoying the BLESSINGS of Abraham as the proselytes did. But never were they, or you, ever considered by Scripture or God or the Jews as being included in the Hebrew covenants.
Stop the Steal.
Click to expand...
every soul of Him is a hebrew soul. an eden soul.

It has nothing to do with a physical race or religion.
 

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