Just because a gentile becomes Born-Again......

[koberstein]

Interesting presentation. I have several questions:

1. Figure 4 shows Paul as causing the Church to branch out from Israel. What Paul did was to call out Judaizers from imposing their Legalisms. So your Jews part of the tree are the Legalistic Judaizers?
2. Where do the Hellenized Greek-Speaking Diaspora Jews, with their Septuagints, who are called the Elect by Peter, fit into all this?
3. Figure 4 mentions 350 CE as when the Church was "gentilized". The Nicene Council occurred on 325 so you can't accuse that as being the cause. So what was the "350 CE" cause?
4. Figure 4 shows Messianic Judaism as bringing together both Jews and the Church. Does Messianic Judaism believe in the Nicene Creed? If not, how will that be resolved by MJ?
5. You wrote "all Christians (not just some) learn the lesson" of Nazi Germany. Please elaborate in complete detail what you think that lesson will be.

Addendum on the Trinity by Dr. Jeffrey Seif

No doubt perceptive readers of this have noticed I did not respond to or assert the classic formulations of the Trinity,
especially as presented in the Council of Nicaea. In very large measure, Messianic Jews believe in the deity of Yeshua
and the personhood of the Holy Spirit. I am positive toward the creedal statements and, as my friend Dr. Mark Kinzer
has stated in a Catholic Jewish dialogue we participate in, I think the formulations produced at the Nicaean Council
were the best possible ones for a Greek- and Latin-speaking world. The Creedal formulations safeguarded the biblical
emphases against the Hellenistic trends of the day. In that day, to define God in singular terms would have been more
compatible to Platonic and Aristotelian ideas. That said, Messianic Jews I still think it best to stay closer to the Bible
and its assertions concerning Yeshua and the Spirit. In a Jewish context, such texts give a very adequate formulation
of the truth.

There are many Christian theologies that give a very good presentation and defense of Trinitarian theology.
James Oliver Boswell's A Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion is one of the best older presentations.
Two more recent presentations that are quite clear and persuasive are Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology,
J. Rodman Williams' Renewal Theology. I, however, prefer speaking in a manner that comports with Jewish
sensibilities, and have endeavored to do so herein.

Shalom

 

[koberstein]

What level of church authority "authorized" that? Was it sanctioned by the Patriarchal Heads of the Church (Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, Rome, and Alexandria)?

In sharp contrast to Stern's comments above, there were many traditions and customs that were transposed from the Jewish faith over to the Early Christian Church, like the Old Testament, the liturgical form of worship, the Menorah, etc... Here's an excellent book that goes into detail describing the continuity of the Temple & Synagogue with the Early Christian Church:

https://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Worship-Living-Continuity-Synagogue/dp/1944967540

Thank you. I will probably by that book from Amazon.
Sounds interesting....

I got 3 books from Amazon today to read and study.
Messianic Code of Jewish Law by Ray Looker
Messianic Jewish Orthodoxy by Dr. Jeffrey Seif
Messianic Judaism is not Christianity by Stan Telchin forwarded by Moise Rosen

 

[synergy]

This was Mark Kinzer's remarks,

What will surprise many readers is to know that Judaism, not only in the Second Temple period, but also throughout the Middle Ages, deals with a controversy that is parallel to that of Nicaea.

It wasn’t until the Middle Ages that it was pronounced to be avodah zara to believe in Yeshua’s deity and in the Trinity.

But even after that, and certainly before it, Judaism has had discussions at great length and of tremendous importance trying to balance the idea of a transcendent/separate/wholly other God and an immanent/present God.

One example is the medieval battle between the Karaites and normative Jews. The Karaites were against the rabbinic writings but believed the written Torah. They were rivals and often debated and criticized the rabbis. Rabbinic literature has many anthropomorphisms of God.

One of the clearest and most unusual is talk of God laying tefillin (wearing phylacteries) and holding arguments about Torah matters with the angels and so on.

The Karaites criticized this kind of talk making God to be comparable to a man. Saadia Gaon and others retreated to a sort of philosophical God. They said that the Shekhina and other mediate forms of deity (angel of the Lord, Wisdom, the Word, the Glory, etc.) were created forms without the substance of God. They were more like holograms, as we might say, than emanations of God.

But this means that God has never actually been present. So the mystics and kabbalists reacted against this sanitized God. They ultimately came up with something that is very familiar to anyone who knows a little kabbalah:
(1) The Ein Sof is God in his actual being, unknowable, separate, and wholly other.
(2) But the Ein Sof sends out emanations, the sefirot. They come in gradually lesser degrees of holiness, which are classically numbered at ten.

There is evidence in the Hebrew Bible that something like what the mystics describe really is going on.

So the controversy in rabbinic Judaism is such that outside criticism caused some rabbis to propose something similar to the Arians whom the Council of Nicaea opposed. These rationalists described a wholly other God who cannot be present with us. Just as the Nicene Creed found a solution in a binitarian view of Father and Son, one and distinct, the Son radiating from the Father, so the mystics of Judaism proposed sefirot emanating from the direct, unknowable being of God.

It is common in Christian circles for people not to understand the relationship of Father and Son. Many people confuse Yeshua with the Father and fail to see a clear differentiation. Yeshua mediates the Father but does not replace. Yeshua is subordinate to the Father, but not because he is of a lower kind of deity.

Paul Saal demonstrated how in popular discussion people can be unaware of the differentiation of Father and Son and can cry heresy when someone is simply restating what the Nicene Creed affirms. He once explained to someone that Yeshua is not God in the sense of being the Ein Sof. Rather, Yeshua is like the sum of all the sefirot. The person claimed that Saal did not then actually believe in the deity of Yeshua! Yet Saal’s description mirrors not only the Nicene Creed, but also Hebrews 1:3.

Kinzer’s paper wraps up with a description of Messianic Jewish theology as a protest against the boundary drawn by mainstream Judaism against the deity of Yeshua. There are other boundary breakers too, such as the Lubavitch who believe their deceased rebbe is divine.

Kinzer says that MJ will only survive if we succeed in our protest against the boundaries. If MJ is never credited as a Judaism, but is always regarded as avodah zara, then we will likely fade away in time.

We are repairing the broken pieces, standing between church creeds and rabbinic discussions, and trying to make them whole. We are looking for a way to express what Nicaea affirms and what it denies in Jewish language. Our commitment to Yeshua’s lordship must not diminish and hiding our belief in it from public view will not serve us. At the risk of being misunderstood by our Jewish people, we have to affirm that Yeshua is God, even when we don’t have time to explain all the possible misunderstandings. And the idea of a divine Messiah is something difficult to describe in Jewish language because of the many centuries of boundary drawing. We pray for tikkun olam.

Related very much to the subject written about above, it's interesting to consider the Theophanies of the Old Testament, in particular when the Word of God came to Jewish Prophets and spoke to them. That's the Pre-Incarnate Word of God.

• 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
• 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,"

What do Messianic Jews say about that?

 

[synergy]

Addendum on the Trinity by Dr. Jeffrey Seif

No doubt perceptive readers of this have noticed I did not respond to or assert the classic formulations of the Trinity,
especially as presented in the Council of Nicaea. In very large measure, Messianic Jews believe in the deity of Yeshua
and the personhood of the Holy Spirit. I am positive toward the creedal statements and, as my friend Dr. Mark Kinzer
has stated in a Catholic Jewish dialogue we participate in, I think the formulations produced at the Nicaean Council
were the best possible ones for a Greek- and Latin-speaking world. The Creedal formulations safeguarded the biblical
emphases against the Hellenistic trends of the day. In that day, to define God in singular terms would have been more
compatible to Platonic and Aristotelian ideas. That said, Messianic Jews I still think it best to stay closer to the Bible
and its assertions concerning Yeshua and the Spirit. In a Jewish context, such texts give a very adequate formulation
of the truth.

There are many Christian theologies that give a very good presentation and defense of Trinitarian theology.
James Oliver Boswell's A Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion is one of the best older presentations.
Two more recent presentations that are quite clear and persuasive are Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology,
J. Rodman Williams' Renewal Theology. I, however, prefer speaking in a manner that comports with Jewish
sensibilities, and have endeavored to do so herein.

Shalom

The main purpose of the Nicene Creed was to declare Christological facts. It was to safeguard the Divinity of Christ and to explain, as best as we could, how Christ can be both Divine and Human at the same time. This was vital because if he wasn't then we are not saved. Any other explanation is just added fluff.

 

[synergy]

Thank you. I will probably by that book from Amazon.
Sounds interesting....

I got 3 books from Amazon today to read and study.
Messianic Code of Jewish Law by Ray Looker
Messianic Jewish Orthodoxy by Dr. Jeffrey Seif
Messianic Judaism is not Christianity by Stan Telchin forwarded by Moise Rosen

I would be interested in your critiques of those books. No rush.

 

[koberstein]

Related very much to the subject written about above, it's interesting to consider the Theophanies of the Old Testament, in particular when the Word of God came to Jewish Prophets and spoke to them. That's the Pre-Incarnate Word of God.

• 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
• 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,"

What do Messianic Jews say about that?

I know what you are saying and I agree with you. I don't have much information on it

 

[koberstein]

The main purpose of the Nicene Creed was to declare Christological facts. It was to safeguard the Divinity of Christ and to explain, as best as we could, how Christ can be both Divine and Human at the same time. This was vital because if he wasn't then we are not saved. Any other explanation is just added fluff.

I remember reciting the Nicene Creed as a youngster in church, but I don't think most churches don't that it anymore.

 

[koberstein]

I would be interested in your critiques of those books. No rush.

They are paperbacks. Should be easy reading. I will let you know what they are trying to express and my thoughts. I'm running out of room for books in my library.
I love books especially concerning the Bible and Yeshua

 

[synergy]

I remember reciting the Nicene Creed as a youngster in church, but I don't think most churches don't that it anymore.

You were Messianic Jew from youth? Did you ever attend a Synagogue? Unfortunately, I have never attended one. Youtube will have to be my eyes into a Synogogue.

 

[koberstein]

Interesting presentation. I have several questions:

1. Figure 4 shows Paul as causing the Church to branch out from Israel. What Paul did was to call out Judaizers from imposing their Legalisms. So your Jews part of the tree are the Legalistic Judaizers?
2. Where do the Hellenized Greek-Speaking Diaspora Jews, with their Septuagints, who are called the Elect by Peter, fit into all this?
3. Figure 4 mentions 350 CE as when the Church was "gentilized". The Nicene Council occurred on 325 so you can't accuse that as being the cause. So what was the "350 CE" cause?
4. Figure 4 shows Messianic Judaism as bringing together both Jews and the Church. Does Messianic Judaism believe in the Nicene Creed? If not, how will that be resolved by MJ?
5. You wrote "all Christians (not just some) learn the lesson" of Nazi Germany. Please elaborate in complete detail what you think that lesson will be.

With all due respect, I do have some information on the Diaspora, but nothing mentions Hellenized Greek speaking Jews.
I know they exist. I will keep looking for information, its just not in the Messianic and Orthodox Jewish books I have.

 

[synergy]

With all due respect, I do have some information on the Diaspora, but nothing mentions Hellenized Greek speaking Jews.
I know they exist. I will keep looking for information, its just not in the Messianic and Orthodox Jewish books I have.

You can follow the trail of the Septuagint. Wherever that was present in the Eastern Roman Empire that's where the Hellenized Jews were.

 

[koberstein]

You were Messianic Jew from youth? Did you ever attend a Synagogue? Unfortunately, I have never attended one. Youtube will have to be my eyes into a Synogogue.

No my mother is a Gentile and my father was a non practicing closet Jew. My mother had us in Presbyterian, Baptist and Methodist churches growing up. When my father passed away I converted to Messianic Judaism and my younger brother converted to Roman Catholic. I'm sure that added more grey hairs to my mother's head. She is a IFB
King James Only person and very legalistic.

 

[koberstein]

You can follow the trail of the Septuagint. Wherever that was present in the Eastern Roman Empire that's where the Hellenized Jews were.

Ok I will do that.

 

[synergy]

No my mother is a Gentile and my father was a non practicing closet Jew. My mother had us in Presbyterian, Baptist and Methodist churches growing up. When my father passed away I converted to Messianic Judaism and my younger brother converted to Roman Catholic. I'm sure that added more grey hairs to my mother's head. She is a IFB
King James Only person and very legalistic.

Much like Timothy you have a Gentile/Jewish Parental mix. That gave Timothy great insights into both cultures and that should be the same for you.

What I'm interested in is everything Apostolic. From their writings (NT) to the Churches Liturgies and Traditions that they instigated, I'm interested in that. That forces me into learning history and that's where I'm coming from in my talks.

 

[koberstein]

Much like Timothy you have a Gentile/Jewish Parental mix. That gave Timothy great insights into both cultures and that should be the same for you.

What I'm interested in is everything Apostolic. From their writings (NT) to the Churches Liturgies and Traditions that they instigated, I'm interested in that. That forces me into learning history and that's where I'm coming from in my talks.u

Much like Timothy you have a Gentile/Jewish Parental mix. That gave Timothy great insights into both cultures and that should be the same for you.

What I'm interested in is everything Apostolic. From their writings (NT) to the Churches Liturgies and Traditions that they instigated, I'm interested in that. That forces me into learning history and that's where I'm coming from in my talks.

My father used the American transliteration of our name.because of antisemitism. I went back to using the Hebrew of our name when he passed.
Thanks for the heads up on what you are interested in.
I have a book on the Jewish Didache which is very interesting. It's in Greek with an English translation.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Gentiles are included in the Covenant Promises. Isa 42,46

You are trusting in the flesh.

Isaiah 42 and 46 are not covenant. Merely bringing light to Gentiles does not say Gentiles are in the Abrahamic Covenant or ANY covenant. I think you should be concerned because God's Servant is not bringing grace, BUT JUDGMENT and this is something you should be worried about.

 

[john]

Fred, Fred, Fred. Don't be sad. It's because of God's covenants with Israel that Gentiles are saved.
Salvation is OF THE JEWS! Celebrate! @praise_yeshua !!!

give it up your posting garbage adding and taking away from the word of God . your blinded by the god of religion not Christianity

 

[jeremiah1five]

I believe in the Olive Tree Theology. The following analysis will show that the separation between the
Church and the Jewish people, as it has developed over the last 2000 years, is completely out of
God's will, a terrible mistake, what is called the worst schism in history. We will see it is our task to
rectify that mistake, to throw ourselves fully into what Judaism calls tikkun-ha'olam, literally
"fixing up the world," repairing it. According to Jewish tradition such activity hastens the coming of
Messiah; and this corresponds to what Kefa [Peter] encourages believers in Yeshua to do, namely,
to hasten the coming of the Day of God. 2 Kefa [2 Peter] 3:12 I call this approach the
"Olive Tree theology," after Sha'ul's [Paul's] allegory in Romans 11:16-26, addressed to Gentile
Christians: Now if the challah (loaf or cake made for Shabbat) offered as firstfruits is holy, so is
the whole loaf. And if the root is holy, so are the branches. But if some of the branches were
broken off, and you---a wild olive---were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers
in the rich root of the olive tree, then don't boast that you are better than the branches!
However, if you do boast, remember you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you.
So you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. 'True, but so what? They were
broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of trust. So don't
be ignorant; on the contrary be terrified! For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly
won't spare you!

When Yeshua came, he was at the center of the tree, at the center of the Jewish people, the quintessential
Jew as well as the quintessential man. He gathered Jewish disciples around him. He died, rose from the
grave, and ascended into heaven. The Messianic Jewish community grew---a hundred and twenty (Acts 1:15),
three thousand (Acts 2:41), five thousand (Acts 4:4), "and their numbers kept multiplying" (Acts 9:31).
The non-Messianic Jews reacted against the Messianic Jews, pushing them away from the center (Acts 4-9, 12),
Meanwhile, the message spread to the Gentiles---Cornelius (Acts 10).

Although Messianic Jews in Jerusalem alone came to number "tens of thousand,....all zealots for the Torah,"
Sha'ul's travels (Acts 13-28) and other missionary outreaches soon made Gentiles a majority in the Church.
Nevertheless, the Jewish believers will still accepted by the Jewish people as part of the Jewish community.

The Spanish Inquisition scrutinized Catholics of Jewish origin to see whether they retained Jewish customs.
Out of Gentile distaste for Jewishness emerged persecution of Jews----Crusades, Inquisition, pograms,
Nazi Germany (yes, there was Christian involvement, both for evil and for good)---with all the pain and
ugliness that Jews cannot forget, and the Church will not be permitted to forget until all Christians
(not just some) learn the lesson.

So until very recently the Jewish people and the Church have remained separate, with no place for
Messianic Judaism, since both the majority of Jews (unsaved people whose experience with the
Church had been mostly negative) and the majority of Christians (Gentiles who misunderstood their
own faith as it relates to the Jewish people) wanted it that way.

It is the task of Messianic Jews and of sympathetic Gentile Christians to undertake the tikkum-ha'olam
of which I spoke earlier. These are the ones who, because of their common trust in the Jewish Messiah
Yeshua, can work together to undo the damage caused by the division of the Jewish people and the
Church into two apparently separate peoples of God. The Jewish people must be brought to understand
freely, willingly, not by coercion or deception---that the age old goals of Jewish endeavor will be achieved
only when the Jewish people come to understand and trust in Yeshua, the Jewish Messiah.
The Church must be brought to understand freely, willingly, not by coercion or deception---that its goals
will be achieved only when any form of overt or covert antisemitism or stand-offishness has disappeared,
and intimate unity with the Jewish people has been acknowledged.

Can there be a grander goal? We live in an exciting age, as we see the momentum of history sweeping
toward the fulfillment of Sha'ul's prophecy that all Israel will be saved. And as we work toward accomplishing
that end, it is essential that we be armed with the right understanding of the relationship between Israel
and the Church

Shabbat Shalom

The Church is Israel. The Bride is Israel.

The Church (ekklesia = "called out [ones]") was founded originally in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle. The children of Israel were "called out" of Egypt the same as baby Jesus was "called out" of Egypt, only the term in the OT is "Great Congregation." And this Great Congregation were the twelve tribes of the children of Israel.

8 Also at the same time Solomon kept the feast seven days, and all Israel with him, a very great congregation, from the entering in of Hamath unto the river of Egypt. 2 Chron. 7:8.

13 And there assembled at Jerusalem much people to keep the feast of unleavened bread in the second month, a very great congregation. 2 Chron. 30:13.

18 I will give thee thanks in the great congregation: I will praise thee among much people. Psalm 35:18.

Nowhere in the Hebrew Scripture are Gentiles called "Olive tree" let alone "wild" Olive tree.

Cornelius was a God-Fearer. The "devout" is a reference to being a God-Fearer however they/he was not circumcised. They committed everything to God and His Torah except circumcision for one reason or the other. Still, they and proselytes were closest to the commonwealth of Israel (citizenship) and were allied with the people of Israel in all ways except circumcision and were the first Gentiles to hear about Jesus of Nazareth and the testimony of His life and the Presence in Israel of their Holy Spirit of Promise and while in the synagogues every sabbath heard the message from other Jewish Christians that their Messiah had come and the gospel (good news) about it was that God has kept His Promise (Deut. 18:15, 18.)

Christ promised to build His Church, and this began with the Advent of the Holy Spirit on the day of the Feast of Harvest (Pentecost) and the Church Christ built was populated by Jews. For four decades until the destruction of the Second Jewish Temple Christ was building His Church and with the destruction of the Temple halted the building this Carpenter began until the Times of the Gentiles is fulfilled, and God will then remove Israel's collective blindness, send two witnesses/prophets, will use the Hebrew Scripture to show Israel this Jesus was truly their long-awaited Messiah, Redeemer, Savior, and King.
And then all Israel shall be saved as per covenant and prophecy. God will at that time continue building His Church up to the day of His return.

 

[jeremiah1five]

every soul of Him is a hebrew soul. an eden soul.

It has nothing to do with a physical race or religion.

Abram was Hebrew. He married his cousin, another Hebrew. Their children were all Hebrew. Gentiles do not come from the loins of Abraham.
And it has everything to do with race. Abraham is the father of the Hebrew people the Jews. You can follow Jesus' family line all the way to Abraham, and Eber, and Noah, to Seth, and to Adam. Gentiles became Gentiles (non-Hebrew) when God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13.)
The Hebrews became a nation through Moses and the giving of God's Torah/Law.

 

[jeremiah1five]

give it up your posting garbage adding and taking away from the word of God . your blinded by the god of religion not Christianity

Scripture please.
True born of God Christians always come with Scripture.
It's either chapter and verse or it's chatter or worse.