Jesus is NOT God

Wrangler

Wrangler

Well-known member
In Scripture, Jesus is explicitly taught to be the son of God. This proves Scripturally that he is not God.

Demonstrable proof that Jesus is NOT God is that Jesus died. It is the most important fact of the Bible (beyond there being one God, whose name is YHWH (not Jesus) who does not change). Below are a selection of relevent syllogisms.

P1. God never dies (is eternal and unchanging). Isaiah 40:28, 1 Timothy 1:17
P2. Jesus (was born, grew, became weary and) died.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

P1. God is not man. Hosea 11:9
P2. Jesus is a man.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

P1. No one has seen God. John 1:18, 1 Timothy 1:17, 1 John 4:12
P2. Many have seen Jesus.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

P1. Jesus sits at the right hand of God. Ps 110:1, Mk 16:19, Lk 22:69, Acts 2:33; 7:55, Eph 1:20, Col 3:1, Heb 1:3; 10:12, 1 Peter 3:22
P2. One cannot sit at their own right hand.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

P1. God is the Father (alone). John 17:1-3, 1 Cor 8:6, and Part 7.
P2. Jesus is not the Father.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

Trinitarians seek to use words to mean what they do not mean to such an extent that a common saying is the trinity cannot be understood, let alone explained. If so, no responsible person has any business advocating, as true, such nonsensical idolatry. It’s an Appeal to Ignorance.
 
Here are my 12 reasons I believe Jesus is God:

1. A mere creation cannot have eternally co-existed with God.

2. A mere creation cannot have co-created the world.

3. A mere creation cannot be enough to atone for an infinite crime against holiness.

4. A mere creation cannot contain the principle of life itself inside it.

5. A mere creation cannot destroy the power of death in itself.

6. A mere creation cannot receive praise and devotion from every created thing.

7. A mere creation cannot hold all authority in heaven and earth.

8. A mere creation would have admonitions not to idolize or worship it.

9. A mere creation cannot potentially directly live inside of all human beings.

10. A mere creation would not ever be directly associated with anything divine.

11. A mere creation cannot demand that nothing be loved more than it as it would be commanding idolatry.

12. A mere creation cannot call itself the only absolute way and truth.

At the point you are willing to accept all 12 things, it is virtually indistinguishable for me from God anyway, and Jesus is God to you whether you use the term "God" or not. The Father is just an order of rank above Jesus with the same attributes and this corresponds to Trinitarian theology.

I believe we can find ample Scriptural evidence to support the above 12 points in both Paul and the rest of Scripture. Also when certain verses began to make me feel unsure of this, I have prayed about this directly to God for many years and received personal confirmation that this is the truth.

So the question may well then be asked, "Why isn't it stated even more clearly?" That's a good questions and I give a couple of reasons.

1. It is not a doctrine essential to salvation. It is very clear the 12 disciples during Christ's earthly minister did not at all fully realize who he was, and simply had a bare faith that he was a Savior, yet Jesus clearly says they were currently saved with their names written in heaven.

2. Doctrines are not required to be written out in the clearest way possible, but only to be written out in an essentially deducible way. We know the Bible condemns pedophilia without a verse that says "Thou shalt not molest children."

3. It is the "glory of kings to search out a matter" and all doctrine doesn't come by intellectually parsing the words of Scripture, but by direct revelation from God, as Jesus said "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you Peter."
 
dizerner said:
Here are my 12 reasons I believe Jesus is God:

1. A mere creation cannot have eternally co-existed with God.

2. A mere creation cannot have co-created the world.

3. A mere creation cannot be enough to atone for an infinite crime against holiness.

4. A mere creation cannot contain the principle of life itself inside it.

5. A mere creation cannot destroy the power of death in itself.

6. A mere creation cannot receive praise and devotion from every created thing.

7. A mere creation cannot hold all authority in heaven and earth.

8. A mere creation would have admonitions not to idolize or worship it.

9. A mere creation cannot potentially directly live inside of all human beings.

10. A mere creation would not ever be directly associated with anything divine.

11. A mere creation cannot demand that nothing be loved more than it as it would be commanding idolatry.

12. A mere creation cannot call itself the only absolute way and truth.

At the point you are willing to accept all 12 things, it is virtually indistinguishable for me from God anyway, and Jesus is God to you whether you use the term "God" or not. The Father is just an order of rank above Jesus with the same attributes and this corresponds to Trinitarian theology.

I believe we can find ample Scriptural evidence to support the above 12 points in both Paul and the rest of Scripture. Also when certain verses began to make me feel unsure of this, I have prayed about this directly to God for many years and received personal confirmation that this is the truth.

So the question may well then be asked, "Why isn't it stated even more clearly?" That's a good questions and I give a couple of reasons.

1. It is not a doctrine essential to salvation. It is very clear the 12 disciples during Christ's earthly minister did not at all fully realize who he was, and simply had a bare faith that he was a Savior, yet Jesus clearly says they were currently saved with their names written in heaven.

2. Doctrines are not required to be written out in the clearest way possible, but only to be written out in an essentially deducible way. We know the Bible condemns pedophilia without a verse that says "Thou shalt not molest children."

3. It is the "glory of kings to search out a matter" and all doctrine doesn't come by intellectually parsing the words of Scripture, but by direct revelation from God, as Jesus said "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you Peter."
Click to expand...
1)The bible doesn't teach Jesus eternally co existed.-- 2)God created everything. he created 99.9% -THROUGH Jesus. Col 1:15-16) If something is done THROUGH another, that means another did it. 6) Jesus won't accept glory from men John 5:41)-Worship = error only found in error filled trinity translations. The same Greek word that is worship to God-PROSKENAUE also can translate-obeisance to a king, Jesus is Gods appointed king. 7) God gave Jesus all authority, proving your error. Matt 28:18) 12) Jesus only taught what his Father commanded him to teach and do- John 12:49)
 
~
When the Word of John 1:1-3 came into the world as the flesh of John 1:14, he
didn't come as divine flesh, rather, he came as Jewish flesh. (Rom 1:3, Rom 8:3,
Heb 2:16-17, Heb 7:14, cf. Gen 49:10)

The Word's Jewish flesh (a.k.a. Jesus) is a bit mysterious because on the one hand
it's very easy to show David was Jesus' paternal ancestor (Ps 132:11, Luke 1:32,
Acts 2:29-30) while on the other hand it is very easy to show Jesus existed before
David; in fact, existed before Abraham. (John 8:58, John 17:5)

Now if John 1:1-3 is true and reliable, then we have to concede that the Word's
Jewish flesh began with Adam, viz: the Word created his own human existence. So
we have the Word existing as a creator and a creation simultaneously which, in
some folk's expert opinion, is both impossible and unacceptable.
_
 
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~
Fred said:
Since no one has seen the Father (John 6:46), but "they saw God" (Exodus 24:11)
then who did they see?
Click to expand...

According to John 1:18, a mysterious being called "the son" was active throughout
the Old Testament. Well; Jesus didn't become a son till the New Testament.

The mysterious son is the focus of our attention for the first 2½ chapters of the
letter to Hebrews before the son Jesus becomes the focus of our attention; which
leads me to suggest that prior to The Word of John 1:1-3 taking on a permanent
human form per John 1:14, he interacted with people cloaked in a fully functioning
human avatar; for example in the 18th chapter of Genesis.

Some expositors insist that the mysterious son I'm talking about was the so-called
pre incarnate Christ, but I think it far and away more sensible to suggest that it was
actually the pre incarnate Word.

Here's a couple of ancient Targums relative to the Word in the Old Testament.

T. Deut 4:7 …For what people so great, to whom the Lord is so high in the Name of
the Word of the Lord? But the custom of (other) nations is to carry their gods upon
their shoulders, that they may seem to be nigh them; but they cannot hear with
their ears, (be they nigh or) be they afar off; but the Word of the Lord sits upon His
throne high and lifted up, and hears our prayer what time we pray before Him and
make our petitions. (Targum Jonathan)

T. Gen 28:20-21 …And Jacob vowed a vow, saying : If the Word of the Lord will be my
support, and will keep me in the way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and
raiment to put on, so that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall
the Word of the Lord be my God. (Targum Onkelos)
_
 
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Olde Tymer said:
~
When the Word of John 1:1-3 came into the world as the flesh of John 1:14, he
didn't come as divine flesh, rather, he came as Jewish flesh. (Rom 1:3, Rom 8:3,
Heb 2:16-17, Heb 7:14, cf. Gen 49:10)

The Word's Jewish flesh (a.k.a. Jesus) is a bit mysterious because on the one hand
it's very easy to show David was Jesus' paternal ancestor (Ps 132:11, Luke 1:32,
Acts 2:29-30) while on the other hand it is very easy to show Jesus existed before
David; in fact, existed before Abraham. (John 8:58, John 17:5)

Now if John 1:1-3 is true and reliable, then we have to concede that the Word's
Jewish flesh began with Adam, viz: the Word created his own human existence. So
we have the Word existing as a creator and a creation simultaneously which, in
some folk's expert opinion, is both impossible and unacceptable.
_
Click to expand...
Because God created all things. 99.9% of them -THROUGH-Jesus-Col 1:16--Yes he lived before Abraham in heaven-The FIRSTBORN of all creation= created direct first and last, all other things created through him.
 
~
● Col 1:15 . . He is the firstborn of all creation

The Greek word translated "firstborn" in that verse is prototokos, which never
means created first; no, it always means born first. The correct Greek word for
created first is protoktistos.

** John Que and Jan Doe pew warmer probably don't know the difference
between prototokos and protoktistos; and no doubt would care little about it
anyway. To some; born first and created first are pretty much synonymous.

The thing to note is that "firstborn" doesn't always refer to birth order. The term
also refers to supremacy, and as such is transferable, viz: it's possible to
circumvent the eldest son and give his advantages to a younger, e.g. Ishmael to
Isaac (Gen 20:11-12) Esau to Jacob (Gen 25:23) Reuben to Joseph (Gen 49:3-4,
1Chr 5:1) and Manasseh to Ephraim (Gen 48:13-14).

The rank of firstborn isn't limited to family circles. For example the people of Israel
are God's firstborn among the world's nations (Ex 4:22) and David is God's
firstborn among the world's heads of State. (Ps 89:20-27)

NOTE: The transfer of supremacy from David to Jesus (Psalm 110) is highly
irregular because in their case it was from father to son instead of sibling to sibling.
(cf. Matt 22:41-45)

In the beginning, Adam was the ranking man over all the Earth (Gen 1:26-28) but
he has since been replaced by someone better. (Dan 7:13-14, John 3:35, 1Cor
15:27, and Phil 2:8-11, Heb 1:1-2)

** It can be easily proven that Jesus is one of Adam's paternal descendants so this
again is a father superseded by a son instead of by a sibling. Well at least Jesus is a
son that Adam can be proud of instead of so many of his sons that are a disgrace.
_
 
civic said:
Yes the Son prior to becoming man is just as much a real Person as the Father is a real Person in Genesis 1. John 1 and Genesis 1 are parallel passages. :)
Click to expand...

They often want to de-personify the Word to make Jesus something less than a Divine Person.
 
Fred said:
Since no one has seen the Father (John 6:46), but "they saw God" (Exodus 24:11) then who did they see?
Click to expand...
Fred,

It's hard not to take your paraphrase of John 6:46 as deliberately deceptive. The REV renders the verse

not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God, he has seen the Father.

So, what are you trying to say here regarding the verses I did cite: John 1:18, 1 Timothy 1:17, 1 John 4:12? Do you aim to just sweep these off the table, put another verse up for discussion that you distort? That's not a very honest response Fred and you've done this sort of thing too many times. I'm warning you right now that if you continue with this disrespectful and dishonest approach, I'm going to put you on ignore.

Your IDOL is so insecure in your own mind that you feel you must resort to such lengths to "support" it. Sad. Very sad.
 
Wrangler said:
No. The word of God is not a person. It is you who personify things that are not persons. Words are WHAT's not WHO's.
Click to expand...

Sadly, the Scriptures completely contradict you:

He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name He was known by is The Word of God. (Voice)
 
12 The word of God, you see, is alive and moving; sharper than a double-edged sword; piercing the divide between soul and spirit, joints and marrow; able to judge the thoughts and will of the heart. 13 No creature can hide from God: God sees all. Everyone and everything is exposed, opened for His inspection; and He’s the One we will have to explain ourselves to. (Voice)

The Word is equated with God himself judging here.
 

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