Jesus denied being God
- Thread starter Runningman
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Peterlag
Well-known member
No it is not you. You are not mean or rude. I enjoy hearing from you.
Indeed a pointless question when it is filled with contradictions. Poor child. Peterlag must be the only one who will live forever. It is the question at the heart of the matter whether one can be deceived about the deity of Christ yet still be a Christian. There would seem to be room, especially when it is accidental ignorance about Christ's divinity in the Godhead. People can have really bad doctrine and still come to eternal life. It just makes it hard to share a meaningful message to other people. That is what is found lacking in unitarianism.
MTMattie
Well-known member
Lets see
you wrote
I wrote
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Sorry, no, you have not addressed my questions concerning Phil 2:5ff
not in the least
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
VERSES IN WHICH BOTH JESUS CHRIST AND THE FATHER ARE MENTIONED, AND GIVE THE TITLE "GOD" TO THE FATHER ONLY
VERSES IN WHICH BOTH JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE MENTIONED, AND GIVE THE TITLE "GOD" FOR BOTH OF THEM
Not found
VERSES IN WHICH BOTH JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE MENTIONED, AND GIVE THE TITLE "GOD" TO JESUS ONLY
Not found.
FINAL RESULTS:
Among the 35 verses in which Jesus and The Father are mentioned in the same sentence, and the title "God" is used,
- John 8:54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’;
- John 17:1,3 Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, so that the Son may glorify You, ...And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
- John 20:17 Jesus *said to her... go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
- Romans 1: 7 "to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
- Romans 15:16 "so that with one purpose and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
- Romans 15:8 "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
- 1 Corinthians 1:3 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
- 1 Corinthians 8:6 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ
- 2 Corinthians 1:2 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
- 2 Corinthians 1:3 Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through human agency, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),
- Galatians 1:1 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ,
- Galatians 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ
- Ephesians 1:2 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ
- Ephesians 1:3 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.
- Ephesians 5.20 always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to our God and Father;
- Ephesians 6:23 Peace be to the brothers and sisters, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ
- Philippians 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
- Philippians 2:11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
- Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brothers and sisters in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.
- Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you
- 1 Thes 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.
- 1 Thes 1:3 constantly keeping in mind your work of faith and labor of love and perseverance of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,
- 2 Thes 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
- 2 Thes 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
- 2 Thes 2:16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace,
- 1 Timothy 1:2 To Timothy, my true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
- 2 Timothy 1:2 To Timothy, my beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
- Titus 1:4 To Titus, my true son in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
- Philemon 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
- 1 Peter 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
- 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
- 1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves the child born of Him
- 2 John 1:3 Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love
- 2 John 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not remain in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who remains in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
- Jude 1:1 Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:
VERSES IN WHICH BOTH JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE MENTIONED, AND GIVE THE TITLE "GOD" FOR BOTH OF THEM
Not found
VERSES IN WHICH BOTH JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE MENTIONED, AND GIVE THE TITLE "GOD" TO JESUS ONLY
Not found.
FINAL RESULTS:
Among the 35 verses in which Jesus and The Father are mentioned in the same sentence, and the title "God" is used,
- 35 (100%) give the title "God" only to The Father
- 0 (0%) give the title "God" to both of them
- 0 (0%) give the title "God" only to Jesus
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Dear brother
Please find the supporting Bible verses for the third thesis in post 866.
If you need verses to support the first and second thesis, I will be glad to provide them.
You ignored these verses where Jesus is called God
John 1:1 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 20:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Titus 2:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
2 Peter 1:1 (NASB 2020) — 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
Isaiah 9:6 (NASB 2020) — 6 For a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Hebrews 1:8 (NASB 2020) — 8 But regarding the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE SCEPTER OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
John 1:18 (NASB 2020) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him.
1 John 5:20 (NASB 2020) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
and if you understand the Angel of the LORD is called Yahweh, The God of the Fathers, The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob
and is shown to be the pre-incarnate Christ
1 Corinthians 10:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
there are many more
And if you take your verses and note the times Christ or the Father is called Lord
Christ ~25
The father 0
I like the verses and passages that show Jesus as God
John 1
John 20:28 "Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!'"
Titus 2:13 Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."
2 Pet 2:1 To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ."
Hebrews 1:8–9 (ESV) But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
Funny how the prompt on 866 likes to exclude these verses.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I did not.
It is just that none of the verses you quoted present the name “Christ” (or Jesus Christ), the name “Father” and the title “God” in the same sentence, so that we could see which of the two (or if the two of them) got the title “God”.
This is important because the inspired author had these two Persons next to each other, wanted to use the term “God” and had a FANTASTIC OPPORTUNITY to assign such title to one, or the other, or to the two of them.
So, Trinitarians should explain why Jesus and the inspired authors take the same decision, over and over and over, on whom to call God.
Suppose that there were a controversy on whether Joe Biden, his son (Hunter Biden), or both of them, are the President of the US
And then, you discover that in 100% of the statements in which Joe Biden and his son are mentioned, the statement says “Greetings from President Joe Biden and from his son Hunter Biden” . Wouldn’t that be clear enough to indicate who is the President?
Yeah you did and Jesus name appears in some of them and in others the context confirm that Jesus Christ is in view
Using your analogy however Christ is Lord the Father is not
So you are asking that scripture be written for your specific form of evidence to which you will reject any other valid verses of evidence of Christ's divinity. That is like some saying I can't tell that Juan Frijoles is distinct from Pancho Frijoles when someone says a person Juan Frijoles is at the front door. Then I'm saying that cannot be a Frijoles person because I cannot tell if it is Pancho Frijoles.
If that example does not make sense, welcome to the confusion of your argument. If Pancho followed scripture better, he would know that God can refer to roughly the Triune God, to the Father in a narrowed sense, or to the positional sense -- that Jesus is full divinity in the Godhead. By positional sense, I mean he is of the Triune Godhead but is not generally called God as a name.
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Peterlag
Well-known member
There's no verse that says the spirit is impersonal. You keep saying that and then you want me to explain you and call it Scripture. You assume that the spirit has to be bound by your thinking... that it has to be a him to do what it does. So when I don't answer what you think you call it I'm not answering the Scripture. You twist Philippians 2:5 into the spirit must be a he to be personal. God does not.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I invite you to read my third thesis again.
Our brother @synergy has invited me to post three arguments with corresponding verses so that it they can be criticized.
My third thesis is about verses that put the names Jesus Christ and Father close together and in which the author decided to use the word “God” to address one of them.
In that category, the title God is assigned 100% of the times to the Father. This cannot be disputed. It is a fact.
What is your explanation for this fact?
I’m not talking about lordship, but about deity.
Lordship in the New Testament belongs overwhelmingly to a different category, a different League.
In that League play the kings, governors, landowners, salve owners. military champions, reputed leaders.
In contrast, in the gods’ League play Zeus, Osiris, Mythra, Moloch, etc.
Thats why Paul separates the god from the lords in 1 Corinthian 1:3. In that verse, Paul compares apples with apples and pears with pears.
It is a simple concept. The identification of God with Father is the dominantly used one. The identification of Jesus with God is used as necessary in situations apart from mention of the Father. This is sort of like some greeting a man named Pancho Frijoles and a son by saying Hi Mr. Frijoles and Juan. Amazing logic in scripture, no?
I invite you to reread what I wrote
You ignored these verses where Jesus is called God
John 1:1 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 20:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Titus 2:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
2 Peter 1:1 (NASB 2020) — 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
Isaiah 9:6 (NASB 2020) — 6 For a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Hebrews 1:8 (NASB 2020) — 8 But regarding the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE SCEPTER OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
John 1:18 (NASB 2020) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him.
1 John 5:20 (NASB 2020) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
and if you understand the Angel of the LORD is called Yahweh, The God of the Fathers, The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob
and is shown to be the pre-incarnate Christ
1 Corinthians 10:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
there are many more
And if you take your verses and note the times Christ or the Father is called Lord
Christ ~25
The father 0
I could ask how do you account for the fact Jesus is presented as our lord but God is not
Is God not our Lord?
If you wish to deny the deity of Christ you must equally deny the lordship of God
Your reasoning runs into the problem however Jesus is called God and God is called lord in scripture
No I never say that. I say he is personal and prove it by giving examples of personal activities which you just ignore
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Not if you had statements saying Hunter was president
Runningman
Well-known member
Sure, I can try to answer that, but I am not a Trinitarian. I will give a fair assessment of what I believe they are doing though. I think they are being mislead by the "incomprehensible mystery" safety net that many theologians have assigned to the Trinity doctrine. It's not an incomprehensible mystery and I have already figured out what the Trinity is. There's a good chance some Trintiarians have already figured it out, too, hence there are some movements to redefine the Trinity to Tri-Unity. Probably worth it's own thread.
Anyway, I think they occasionally notice some issues with the Trinity such as in John 1:1 for example. It says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Or something almost exactly like that in most Trinitarian Bibles. They usually say the "Word is Jesus" which, if true, then it can be read like "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and the Jesus was God." However, if Jesus was God then it would be like saying "God was with God." On the other hand, if God is the Father then it would be saying "Jesus was the Father" yet God is a Trinity of three persons to them so it only gets more confusing by the fact that John 1:1 ultimately sounds like "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Trinity, and Jesus was the Trinity."
So it doesn't really make any sense if the Trinitarian concept of God is hand-written into Scripture and tested for consistency. It's not possible to logically understand under their own rules and theology who God is. I think they typically, generally speaking, try to shy away from talking about the Trinity because it's extremely vulnerable being refuted with Scripture, logic, and reason and they instead focus on Christian living.
Now, Christian living, depending on who you ask, probably won't look like what you might imagine it is. Protestantism has some very liberal ideas about sin and salvation. I think few of them really know what the Christian lifestyle should be. Definitely worth it's own thread too.
