Jesus denied being God

[TomL]

If you believe Jesus is God and he is not. Then you don't know who he is.
If you believe God is Jesus and He is not. Then you don't know who He is.
If you think the spirit is part of a God and that it's a person. Then you don't know how to walk in the spirit.

So my question is what is your religion about? Do you live your life trying to be good so God will like you? Do you try to believe there's a God so you can be a Christian? I honestly don't know what you have for what you call a Christian lifestyle.

Again you have to assume your view is true

That is begging the question

Hello

The Christian lifestyle is lived by faith

 

[Peterlag]

Sure, I can try to answer that, but I am not a Trinitarian. I will give a fair assessment of what I believe they are doing though. I think they are being mislead by the "incomprehensible mystery" safety net that many theologians have assigned to the Trinity doctrine. It's not an incomprehensible mystery and I have already figured out what the Trinity is. There's a good chance some Trintiarians have already figured it out, too, hence there are some movements to redefine the Trinity to Tri-Unity. Probably worth it's own thread.

Anyway, I think they occasionally notice some issues with the Trinity such as in John 1:1 for example. It says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Or something almost exactly like that in most Trinitarian Bibles. They usually say the "Word is Jesus" which, if true, then it can be read like "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and the Jesus was God." However, if Jesus was God then it would be like saying "God was with God." On the other hand, if God is the Father then it would be saying "Jesus was the Father" yet God is a Trinity of three persons to them so it only gets more confusing by the fact that John 1:1 ultimately sounds like "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Trinity, and Jesus was the Trinity."

So it doesn't really make any sense if the Trinitarian concept of God is hand-written into Scripture and tested for consistency. It's not possible to logically understand under their own rules and theology who God is. I think they typically, generally speaking, try to shy away from talking about the Trinity because it's extremely vulnerable being refuted with Scripture, logic, and reason and they instead focus on Christian living.

Now, Christian living, depending on who you ask, probably won't look like what you might imagine it is. Protestantism has some very liberal ideas about sin and salvation. I think few of them really know what the Christian lifestyle should be. Definitely worth it's own thread too.

The closes you came to causing me to understand what Christianity means to the trinity folks is when you said Protestantism has some very liberal ideas about sin and salvation.

 

[Peterlag]

No I never say that. I say he is personal and prove it by giving examples of personal activities which you just ignore



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I don't ignore. I can't explain you. You think because the spirit is personal. That it then has to be a person and therefore a gender. And you keep saying I'm ignoring the question when the question is not found in the Bible. It's only in your head.

 

[Peterlag]

Again you have to assume your view is true

That is begging the question

Hello

The Christian lifestyle is lived by faith

Some assert we have to take the Trinity “by faith” but that is not biblical either.

 

[TomL]

I don't ignore. I can't explain you. You think because the spirit is personal. That it then has to be a person and therefore a gender. And you keep saying I'm ignoring the question when the question is not found in the Bible. It's only in your head.

Yeah you do

If you cannot show how the performance of personal activities does not indicate a personal being you have no argument

 

[TomL]

Some assert we have to take the Trinity “by faith” but that is not biblical either.

Irrelevant

Posters here have posted scripture supporting it

 

[TomL]

I support you 100% on this, TomL.
I openly an firmly reject Peterlag's prejudices.

The person who knows God and who knows Jesus is the one who love his brothers.

Ok Thank you

 

[civic]

Yeah you do

If you cannot show how the performance of personal activities does not indicate a personal being you have no argument

Yes another uni strawman

 

[Peterlag]

Irrelevant

Posters here have posted scripture supporting it

I support you 100% on this, TomL.
I openly an firmly reject Peterlag's prejudices.

The person who knows God and who knows Jesus is the one who love his brothers.

Nobody to date has been able to answer my honest question. If you don't know who God is and if you don't know who Jesus is and if you don't know what the spirit is. Then what do you have?

 

[TomL]

Nobody to date has been able to answer my honest question. If you don't know who God is and if you don't know who Jesus is and if you don't know what the spirit is. Then what do you have?

Wake up

You are assuming we do not know God, do not know Jesus, do not know the Spirit

Hello you are begging the question assuming what you cannot prove

Your claim is totally bogus

 

[civic]

Wake up

You are assuming we do not know God, do not know Jesus, do not know the Spirit

Hello you are begging the question assuming what you cannot prove

Your claim is totally bogus

Ditto it’s projecting on his part

 

[mikesw]

We indeed have

• few statements saying Hunter is president, four of them challenged by other journalists as errors
• an overwhelming number of statements saying that his father Joe is president,
• statements that say that "Our President is Only One", including the Constitution!
• statements of Hunter himself referring to Joe Biden as "My President",
• a recording of Hunter telling Joe "Dad, you are the only and true President, and I am your son"

So, we have a special situation, don't we?

That's why, I insist, it is useful to examine what the statements say when Joe and Hunter Biden are put together in the same sentence, and the title "President" is used.

Pancho does not realize that God is commonly used to designate the Father while also being able to be used as the Trinitarian (or whole sense) but also is used as any of the Godhead. A mild analogy is like God being a family name. You refer to Mr. Johnson and his son Jack have arrived. If the father is not there, you greet Mr. Jack Johnson or just Mr. Johnson.
Of course the basic word for "god" in the Greek is even used with false gods who are not part of the Israel Godhead. So we run into that limitation of not having more nuanced words. But we have enough evidence to point out distinctions in usage.

Pancho is missing a basic nuance of language and communication here. That is also the problem with runningman's interpretation. And the results are likely to be odd doctrines overall.

 

[mikesw]

Sure, I can try to answer that, but I am not a Trinitarian. I will give a fair assessment of what I believe they are doing though. I think they are being mislead by the ...

So it doesn't really make any sense if the Trinitarian concept of God is hand-written into Scripture and tested for consistency. It's not possible to logically understand under their own rules and theology who God is. I think they typically, generally speaking, try to shy away from talking about the Trinity because it's extremely vulnerable being refuted with Scripture, logic, and reason and they instead focus on Christian living.

Now, Christian living, depending on who you ask, probably won't look like what you might imagine it is. Protestantism has some very liberal ideas about sin and salvation. I think few of them really know what the Christian lifestyle should be. Definitely worth it's own thread too.

Uh oh. What is that doctrine being revealed in these last several sentences? It sounds like legalism and works of the law are part of runningman's doctrine. Or else what is the counter doctrine being proposed here?

 

[Peterlag]

Wake up

You are assuming we do not know God, do not know Jesus, do not know the Spirit

Hello you are begging the question assuming what you cannot prove

Your claim is totally bogus

You are ignoring my question.

 

[mikesw]

Our friend @TomL brings some verses thinking that they say that Jesus is God.
. . .

Titus 2:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
COMMENT: Mistranslation. The verse should have said "our great God and our Savior, Christ Jesus" as this is the way Paul does it everywhere. I'm not alone here. Scholars in charge of about 13 translations in English do it that way.
here.

I will address this one verse for the moment since the idea of it was on my mind.

Of course there are always outliers on translations. This one again shows the regular style
Tito 2:13 aguardando la esperanza bienaventurada y la manifestación gloriosa de nuestro gran Dios y Salvador Jesucristo,

The point to note is that we have no other passages (that I'm aware of) where the Father is expressed as appearing in glory to us. And per the translation approaches, nuestro would not normally be inserted except when found also in the Greek.

 

[MTMattie]

Our friend @TomL brings some verses thinking that they say that Jesus is God.
Some of them have nothing to do with the deity of Jesus. Some of them have been source of debate.
That's why I consider crucial to examine the verses in which the two Persons that both Trinitarians and Unitarians regard as independent Minds, are presented together, and one of them is assigned the title "God". In 100% of these verses, the title "God" is assigned only to the Father.

****

Hold the comments as the verse in discussion is

Titus 2:13... and assorted translations. and Quit diverting to a subject matter that has nothing to do with this verse.

This verse has to do with the coming of Jesus. How do we know it is Jesus only? See verse 14 from NASB95
14who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

Verse 13 is ONLY about Jesus. You cannot possibly twist it without rewriting all of Titus.

New International Version
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ,

New Living Translation
while we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ, will be revealed.

English Standard Version
waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Berean Standard Bible
as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Berean Literal Bible
awaiting the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

King James Bible
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

New King James Version
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

New American Standard Bible
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior , Christ Jesus,

NASB 1995
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior , Christ Jesus,

NASB 1977
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior , Christ Jesus;

Legacy Standard Bible
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ,

Amplified Bible
awaiting and confidently expecting the [fulfillment of our] blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Christian Standard Bible
while we wait for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ.

American Standard Version
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
While we look for the blessed hope and the revelation of the glory of The Great God and Our Lifegiver , Yeshua The Messiah,

Contemporary English Version
We are filled with hope, as we wait for the glorious return of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ,

English Revised Version
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
At the same time we can expect what we hope for-the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Good News Translation
as we wait for the blessed Day we hope for, when the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ will appear.

International Standard Version
as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior , Jesus the Messiah.

Literal Standard Version
waiting for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Majority Standard Bible
as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

New American Bible
as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ,

NET Bible
as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ.

New Revised Standard Version
while we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ.

New Heart English Bible
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ;

Webster's Bible Translation
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God , and our Savior Jesus Christ;

Weymouth New Testament
in expectation of the fulfilment of our blessed hope--the Appearing in glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

World English Bible
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ,

Young's Literal Translation
waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,

32 translations and they all say Jesus Christ as great God and Savior.

 

[civic]

Hold the comments as the verse in discussion is

Titus 2:13... and assorted translations. and Quit diverting to a subject matter that has nothing to do with this verse.

This verse has to do with the coming of Jesus. How do we know it is Jesus only? See verse 14 from NASB95
14who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

Verse 13 is ONLY about Jesus. You cannot possibly twist it without rewriting all of Titus.

New International Version
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ,

New Living Translation
while we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ, will be revealed.

English Standard Version
waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Berean Standard Bible
as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Berean Literal Bible
awaiting the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

King James Bible
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

New King James Version
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

New American Standard Bible
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior , Christ Jesus,

NASB 1995
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior , Christ Jesus,

NASB 1977
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior , Christ Jesus;

Legacy Standard Bible
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ,

Amplified Bible
awaiting and confidently expecting the [fulfillment of our] blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Christian Standard Bible
while we wait for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ.

American Standard Version
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
While we look for the blessed hope and the revelation of the glory of The Great God and Our Lifegiver , Yeshua The Messiah,

Contemporary English Version
We are filled with hope, as we wait for the glorious return of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ,

English Revised Version
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
At the same time we can expect what we hope for-the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Good News Translation
as we wait for the blessed Day we hope for, when the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ will appear.

International Standard Version
as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior , Jesus the Messiah.

Literal Standard Version
waiting for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Majority Standard Bible
as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

New American Bible
as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ,

NET Bible
as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ.

New Revised Standard Version
while we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ.

New Heart English Bible
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ;

Webster's Bible Translation
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God , and our Savior Jesus Christ;

Weymouth New Testament
in expectation of the fulfilment of our blessed hope--the Appearing in glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

World English Bible
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ,

Young's Literal Translation
waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,

32 translations and they all say Jesus Christ as great God and Savior.

This verse alone is enough to refute Unitarianism. Since nowhere in scripture is it every the Father returning in glory but always the Son

 

[civic]

Parousia

Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:27
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:37
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:39
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thessalonians 2:19
19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thessalonians 3:13
13 To the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming



James 5:7
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.

James 5:8
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

2 Peter 1:16
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

2 Peter 3:4
4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

1 John 2:28-29
28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This verse alone is enough to refute Unitarianism. Since nowhere in scripture is it every the Father returning in glory but always the Son

No.
You would have to refute an overwhelmingly superior amount of verses in which "God" and "Savior Jesus Christ" are presented as different persons. Even more when 35 of them do mention the Father, and it is the Father, and not the Son, who is called "God". You would have to refute verses in which Jesus Himself is speaking about who the Father is for Him.

So, Titus 2:13 cannot even stand a chance against the volume of verses (undisputed verses in terms of translation) which overcomes Titus 2:13 in proportion superior to 10:1.


You decide: Are you willing to rule out the 95% to uphold the 5%, or are you willing to rule out the 5% to uphold the 95%?

If anyone has any doubt about the math being performed here, please let me know and I will be glad to show the math.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Nobody to date has been able to answer my honest question. If you don't know who God is and if you don't know who Jesus is and if you don't know what the spirit is. Then what do you have?

Hi Peterlag

Do you think that by declaring "God is One" we already know God?
Do you think that by declaring "God is Triune" our Trinitarian brothers and sisters don't know God?

So, in Judgement Day, do you expect God to give everyone an online quiz with, say, 10 questions about Theology, so that those who answer correctly to all of them are admitted in heaven?