Jesus denied being God

[Runningman]

What did you do with

Hagar identifies "the LORD that spake unto her" as "Thou God seest me".
This is the pre-incarnate Christ who may be called God, LORD or even Yahweh


And there is nothing preventing the pre incarate Christ being this messenger of the lord and be denoted God, LORD or Yahweh

Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

But the pre incarnate Christ did appear as God, LORD and even Yahweh



No as the pre-incarnate Christ has no problem communicating with the Father

see above

How is that when the angel of the LORD is in the New Testament near Jesus? Also, what you obviously lack, is any direct proof of your claims. By all counts, there are no direct examples of Jesus, the Son, the Word, etc saying or doing anything in the Old Testament. That really hurts the pre-existence doctrine.

Matthew 1
24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

Matthew 28
1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 2And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. 3His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: 4And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. 5And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

Whose glory did Isaiah see?


John 12:37–41 (KJV 1900) — 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Refers to seeing the prophecy in faith just like Hebrews 11 says.

Hebrews 11
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

[Runningman]

If of rank

You have no argument Jesus was a created being

and scripture states

Colossians 1:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

and

John 1:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

precludes Christ from being a created thing

I have a great argument for Jesus being a created being. For starters, Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14 says he was. Two, he isn't anywhere to be found in the old testament. Three, he didn't come about until he was born.

Is Jesus the son of David and Abraham? yes or no

As Scripture states,

Matthew 1
1The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

 

[Runningman]

Yes indeed is does - the Creator cannot be created. Talk about an oxymoron lol.

Is Jesus the creator here? Note, Jesus is never called Lord of heaven and earth in Scripture.

Matthew 11
25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth...

Acts 17
24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

 

[civic]

How is that when the angel of the LORD is in the New Testament near Jesus? Also, what you obviously lack, is any direct proof of your claims. By all counts, there are no direct examples of Jesus, the Son, the Word, etc saying or doing anything in the Old Testament. That really hurts the pre-existence doctrine.

Matthew 1
24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

Matthew 28
1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 2And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. 3His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: 4And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. 5And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

Refers to seeing the prophecy in faith just like Hebrews 11 says.

Hebrews 11
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

The Angel of the Lord is never seen after Jesus birth as a man. Your Matt 28 reference is an angel of the Lord, not The Angel of the Lord.

nice try.

 

[civic]

Genesis 16:7-13 - the AOTL appears separately from the LORD and speaks about something the LORD said.

Revelation 19:9-10, Revelation 22:9 - the AOTL refused to be worshipped as God.

Judges 6:11-32 - the AOTL is a messenger of God, the angel leaves and God stays

Exodus 3:2 - the AOTL is a messenger of God

Judges 2:1 - the AOTL exercised delegated authority from God

Zechariah 1:13,14 - The angel of the LORD and the LORD speak to one another.

Matthew 1:24 - The angel of the Lord is present after Jesus was already a baby

Matthew 28:1-5 - The angel of the Lord is present after Jesus was resurrected.

The Angel of the Lord in the OT was the pre incarnate Son which is why He is identified as YHWH and worshiped as God unlike the created angels who are not worshiped.

Gen 22:11-14
But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"

"Here I am," he replied.

12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided."


Exodus 3:2, 5

And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed…And he said, Draw not nigh thither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.”


Judg 6:11-28
The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, "The Lord is with you, mighty warrior."

13 "But sir," Gideon replied, "if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our fathers told us about when they said, 'Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt? But now the Lord has abandoned us and put us into the hand of Midian."

14 The Lord turned to him and said, "Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian's hand. Am I not sending you?"

15 "But Lord,” Gideon asked, "how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family."

16 The Lord answered, "I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites together."

17 Gideon replied, "If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you."

And the Lord said, "I will wait until you return."

19 Gideon went in, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak.

20 The angel of God said to him, "Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth." And Gideon did so. 21 With the tip of the staff that was in his hand, the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, "Ah, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!"

23 But the Lord said to him, "Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die."

24 So Gideon built an altar to the Lord there and called it The Lord is Peace. To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.

25 That same night the Lord said to him, "Take the second bull from your father's herd, the one seven years old.Tear down your father's altar to Baal and cut down the Asherah pole beside it. 26 Then build a proper kind of altar to the Lord your God on the top of this height. Using the wood of the Asherah pole that you cut down, offer the second bull as a burnt offering."

27 So Gideon took ten of his servants and did as the Lord told him. But because he was afraid of his family and the men of the town, he did it at night rather than in the daytime.

28 In the morning when the men of the town got up, there was Baal's altar, demolished, with the Asherah pole beside it cut down and the second bull sacrificed on the newly built altar!

Well the main function or a general definition of a "shaliach" is as follows:

A shaliaḥ (שָלִיחַ; pl. שְלִיחִים, sheliḥim) in Halakha is a Jewish legal or agent. Accordingly, a shaliaḥ performs an act of legal significance for the benefit of the sender, as opposed to him or herself.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaliach


A Chabad shliach (שליח, pl. שליחים/שלוחים, shlichim/shluchim) is a Chabad member sent out to promulgate Judaism and Chasidut around the world. Chabad shluchim today number about 4,000 worldwide, and can be found in many of even the most remote worldly locales.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaliach_(Chabad)

Now, I am bringing this up for a very good reason and I want to cut to the chase of my point in this little exercise. The basic job of a "shaliach or the definition is an agent sent on a specfic mission to represent the interst of someon else. In short there are restrictions to the function of a shaliach and I will give you the best example.

Now, you have at Genesis 16:7 the very first appearance of the angel of the Lord. If you read the context from verse 7 to Genesis 17:1-2 you will discover that the Lord God Almighty is the speaker even though the the angel of the Lord is actually speaking. At verse 10 the angel of the Lord says that He will greatly multiply the descendents of Hagar. Then at Genesis 17:1 and 2 it's the Lord God Almighty who will multiply his descendents. You cannot get away from the fact that the same being is taking in the passages. Even at Genesis 16:13 Hagar says I have see the Lord God and am still alive.

Now, lets jump to Genesis 22 where God is going to test Abraham. You have the Lord God Almighty speaking from Genesis 22:1-10. There is no question about this fact. At verse 11 it states, "But the angel of the Lord called to him (Abraham) from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." Then at verse 15 the angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time." (Note: why does the angel of the Lord have to call out for God Himself a second time from heaven?) Is not the Lord God Himself capable of calling out from heaven Himself. I mean He did call out from heaven at Mark 1:11. He did not need the so-called shaliah then.

After the angel of the Lord calls out from heaven the second time which is Genesis 22:15 here is what this so-called shaliach/emissary says, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld you son, you only son. Indeed, I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore etc."

So you see from following the sequence of events a shaliach is limited or he can only do so much on behalf of the sender. He cannot swear an oath for the sender as you see the scriptures say. He cannot multiply the seed of anyone as you see the scriptures say.

Not only that but the real kicker of all of this is found in the NT at Hebrews 6:13. The writer of the Hebrews states, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, VS14, SAYING, "I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU , AND I WILL MULTIPLY YOU." This text is referring back to Genesis 22 and Abraham. A shaliach cannot swear an oath on behalf of the sender and it even says God swore by Himself. In short, the shaliach argument will not work and I maintain that the messenger of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ

hope this helps !!!

 

[TomL]

How is that when the angel of the LORD is in the New Testament near Jesus? Also, what you obviously lack, is any direct proof of your claims. By all counts, there are no direct examples of Jesus, the Son, the Word, etc saying or doing anything in the Old Testament. That really hurts the pre-existence doctrine.

Near I did not say near

And I have already produced multiple verses calling him God which is direct proof

Further i noted how John's gospel cites Isaiah as seeing the glory of Jesus when Isaiah in the old testament says he saw God/Yahweh

Isaiah 6:1–9 (KJV 1900) — 1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: The whole earth is full of his glory. 4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. 6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; And see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Jesus is Jehovah/Yahweh:
Rom. 10:9-13. Note the repeated “for,” which links these verses closely together. The “Lord” of 10:13 must be the “Lord” of 10:9, 12.
Phil. 2:9-11. In context, the “name that is above every name” is “Lord” (vs. 11), i.e., Jehovah.
Heb. 1:10. Here God the Father addresses the Son as “Lord,” in a quotation of Psa. 102:25 (cf. 102:24, where the person addressed is called “God”). Since here the Father addresses the Son as “Lord,” this cannot be explained away as a text in which a creature addresses Christ as God/Lord in a merely representational sense.
1 Pet. 2:3. This verse is nearly an exact quotation of Psa. 34:8a, where “Lord” is Jehovah. From 1 Pet. 2:4-8 it is also clear that “the Lord” in v. 3 is Jesus.
1 Pet. 3:14-15. These verses are a clear reference to Isa. 8:12-13, where the one who is to be regarded as holy is Jehovah.
Jesus has the titles of God
Titles belonging only to God
The first and the last: Rev. 1:17; 22:13; cf. Isa. 44:6
King of kings and Lord of lords: 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 17:14; 19:16

 

[Runningman]

The Angel of the Lord is never seen after Jesus birth as a man. Your Matt 28 reference is an angel of the Lord, not The Angel of the Lord.

nice try.

Matthew 1:24 contains the definite "the" article in regards to the angel of the Lord while Mary was already pregnant. Elizabeth called Mary the mother of the Lord while she was pregnant, but Mary is not the mother of God. Therefore the Jesus is a human Lord, not the Lord God. Therefore the angel of the Lord is not YHWH and neither is Jesus.

Your pre-existence doctrine will suffer a mortal wound now.

​

Matthew 1​

24When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and embraced Mary as his wife.​

​

Luke 1​

43And why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?​

 

[civic]

Matthew 1:24 contains the definite "the" article in regards to the angel of the Lord while Mary was already pregnant. Elizabeth called Mary the mother of the Lord while she was pregnant, but Mary is not the mother of God. Therefore the Jesus is a human Lord, not the Lord God. Therefore the angel of the Lord is not YHWH and neither is Jesus.

Your pre-existence doctrine will suffer a mortal wound now.

​

Matthew 1​

24When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and embraced Mary as his wife.​

​

Luke 1​

43And why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?​

That angel doesn't claim to be God and is not identified as God like the Angel of the Lord in the OT who is worshipped as YHWH/God. That's the ole unitarian twisting of scripture once again. Anything to deny the Glory, Honor, Praise, Worship of the Son.

next fallacy

 

[TomL]

I have a great argument for Jesus being a created being. For starters, Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14 says he was. Two, he isn't anywhere to be found in the old testament. Three, he didn't come about until he was born.

Is Jesus the son of David and Abraham? yes or no

As Scripture states,

Matthew 1
1The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Sorry you ignored the facts

Colossians 1:16 (NIV) — 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

and

John 1:3 (NIV) — 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

which show He could not be a created creature

as well as the fact prototokos carries metaphorical meanings as well as literal and gave scripture

FIRSTBORN PROTOTOKOS GR SOMETIMES USED TO DENOTE PREEMINENCE 0R HEADSHIP OR EVEN FAVORITISM. IT IS SOMETIMES TRANSFERRED

Ex. 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son,

Psa. 89:27 And I will make him the firstborn,
the highest of the kings of the earth.


1Chr. 5:1 The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel (for he was the firstborn, but because he defiled his father’s couch, his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph the son of Israel, so that he could not be enrolled as the oldest son; 2 though Judah became strong among his brothers and a chief came from him, yet the birthright belonged to Joseph), 3 the sons of Reuben, the firstborn of Israel: Hanoch, Pallu, Hezron, and Carmi.

Gen. 41:50 Before the year of famine came, two sons were born to Joseph. Asenath, the daughter of Potiphera priest of On, bore them to him. 51 Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh. “For,” he said, “God has made me forget all my hardship and all my father’s house.” 52 The name of the second he called Ephraim, “For God has made me fruitful in the land of my affliction.”

Jer. 31:9 With weeping they shall come,
and with pleas for mercy I will lead them back,
I will make them walk by brooks of water,
in a straight path in which they shall not stumble,
for I am a father to Israel,
and Ephraim is my firstborn.

 

[Runningman]

That angel doesn't claim to be God and is not identified as God like the Angel of the Lord in the OT who is worshipped as YHWH/God.

next fallacy

Near I did not say near

And I have already produced multiple verses calling him God which is direct proof

Further i noted how John's gospel cites Isaiah as seeing the glory of Jesus when Isaiah in the old testament says he saw God/Yahweh

Isaiah 6:1–9 (KJV 1900) — 1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: The whole earth is full of his glory. 4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. 6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; And see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Isaiah recorded what he saw during the reign as Uzziah as a vision. It's not literal and that part doesn't apply to Jesus anyway according to what John recorded in John 12:41. The only part that applies to Jesus is Isaiah 6:10.

Isaiah 1
1This is the vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Jesus is Jehovah/Yahweh:

Verse?

Rom. 10:9-13. Note the repeated “for,” which links these verses closely together. The “Lord” of 10:13 must be the “Lord” of 10:9, 12.

Jesus didn't raise himself from the dead so the God who raised Jesus from the dead isn't Jesus. They are not the same Lord. Note, John 2:22 says Jesus was "raised from the dead." So it doesn't follow that in Romans 10:13 that Jesus is YHWH.

Phil. 2:9-11. In context, the “name that is above every name” is “Lord” (vs. 11), i.e., Jehovah.

It says Jesus was "given" his name while YHWH said YHWH is His name forever. If YHWH was given His name then that wasn't His name forever. You can't shoehorn Jesus into being God without creating an avalanche of contradictions. Means Jesus isn't YHWH.

Philippians 2
9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place
and gave Him the name above all names,

Exodus 3
15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

Heb. 1:10. Here God the Father addresses the Son as “Lord,” in a quotation of Psa. 102:25 (cf. 102:24, where the person addressed is called “God”). Since here the Father addresses the Son as “Lord,” this cannot be explained away as a text in which a creature addresses Christ as God/Lord in a merely representational sense.

Hebrews 1:10 begins with "And" therefore it is conjoined to verse 9 that refers to the previously mentioned God being the one who anointed Jesus. Therefore, the Creator in Hebrews 1:10 isn't Jesus.

1 Pet. 2:3. This verse is nearly an exact quotation of Psa. 34:8a, where “Lord” is Jehovah. From 1 Pet. 2:4-8 it is also clear that “the Lord” in v. 3 is Jesus.

This one is quite a stretch.

1 Pet. 3:14-15. These verses are a clear reference to Isa. 8:12-13, where the one who is to be regarded as holy is Jehovah.

Another stretch. Being holy isn't good enough to write someone in as God. We are also commanded to be holy in 1 Peter 1:15-16.

Jesus has the titles of God
Titles belonging only to God

You have laser focused in on the wrong idea. Jesus lacks about two dozen titles and/or descriptions of God in the Bible. There are also some examples of others who are not Jesus having some of the titles of God.

It's lengthy, I will make a seperate reply to your comment.

The first and the last: Rev. 1:17; 22:13; cf. Isa. 44:6

Revelation 1:18 says the first and the last died. Is it your stance that the first and last is not immortal? Or can it be that first and last refers to a beginning, end, and is not a descriptor of an eternal God? Answer this and you'll be ready to hear what this means.

King of kings and Lord of lords: 1 Tim. 6:15;

1 Timothy 6:15 isn't about Jesus. Verses 14-15 refer to the King of kings and Lord of lords bringing about the appearance of Jesus, but Jesus doesn't know when he's returning according to Matthew 24:36.

Rev. 17:14;

The word order here is different. It says "Lord of lords and King of kings" to show distinction between God and Jesus. Jesus is technically never called "King of kings and Lord of lords" in the Bible.

19:16

This passage isn't about Jesus.

According to Scripture that's the Father.

1. And its rider is called Faithful = "the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God" - Deuteronomy 7:9
2. and True = "But the LORD is the true God;" - Jeremiah 10:10, John 17:3
3. With righteousness He judges = 'But God is the judge:' - Psalm 75:7
4. and wages war. = "the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you." - Deuteronomy 20:4
5. He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. = This is the Father because the other descriptions about the Father are all the Father.
6. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. = Jesus doesn't know what only God knows. Matthew 24:36
7. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God. = "their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment." - Isaiah 63:3
8. The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. = "my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?" = Matthew 26:53
9. from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword = "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword," - Hebrews 4:12
10. He will rule them with an iron scepter. = "for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me." - Psalm 23:4
11. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. = "I have trodden the winepress alone; " - Isaiah 63:3
12. And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. = "who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;" - 1 Timothy 6:15

 

[Runningman]

That angel doesn't claim to be God and is not identified as God like the Angel of the Lord in the OT who is worshipped as YHWH/God. That's the ole unitarian twisting of scripture once again. Anything to deny the Glory, Honor, Praise, Worship of the Son.

next fallacy

The AOTL never claims to be God nor is ever worshipped as God in the OT. So you just reject the fact that the New Testament says the AOTL was present while Jesus the Lord was already a fetus?

 

[civic]

The AOTL never claims to be God nor is ever worshipped as God in the OT. So you just reject the fact that the New Testament says the AOTL was present while Jesus the Lord was already a fetus?

Gen 22:11-14
But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"


"Here I am," he replied.


12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."


13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided."


Exodus 3:2, 5
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed…And he said, Draw not nigh thither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.”


Judg 6:11-28
The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, "The Lord is with you, mighty warrior."


13 "But sir," Gideon replied, "if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our fathers told us about when they said, 'Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt? But now the Lord has abandoned us and put us into the hand of Midian."


14 The Lord turned to him and said, "Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian's hand. Am I not sending you?"


15 "But Lord,” Gideon asked, "how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family."


16 The Lord answered, "I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites together."


17 Gideon replied, "If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you."


And the Lord said, "I will wait until you return."


19 Gideon went in, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak.


20 The angel of God said to him, "Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth." And Gideon did so. 21 With the tip of the staff that was in his hand, the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, "Ah, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!"


23 But the Lord said to him, "Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die."


24 So Gideon built an altar to the Lord there and called it The Lord is Peace. To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.


25 That same night the Lord said to him, "Take the second bull from your father's herd, the one seven years old.Tear down your father's altar to Baal and cut down the Asherah pole beside it. 26 Then build a proper kind of altar to the Lord your God on the top of this height. Using the wood of the Asherah pole that you cut down, offer the second bull as a burnt offering."


27 So Gideon took ten of his servants and did as the Lord told him. But because he was afraid of his family and the men of the town, he did it at night rather than in the daytime.


28 In the morning when the men of the town got up, there was Baal's altar, demolished, with the Asherah pole beside it cut down and the second bull sacrificed on the newly built altar!


conclusion: you have been refuted by the word of God and your bias shown to be false concerning the angel of the Lord who is called YHWH and worshiped as God. Created angels are forbidden to be worshiped and refuse worship.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

Sorry you ignored the facts

Colossians 1:16 (NIV) — 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

It's contextual and not meant to be all inclusive about all things. Sometimes in Scripture when they say "all things" they didn't actually mean for the reader to think it was literally "all things."

An example is John 14:26 where Jesus said "the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things" So did the Holy Spirit teach the disciples trigonometry, how to make a pizza, how to invent a cell phone? No? Oh, so "all things" isn't literally "all things" there, is it?

How about Matthew 21:22 where Jesus said "all things" in regards to whatever is asked in prayer they would get and yet James said in James 4:3 they don't get what they ask because they ask wrongly. Hey wait a minute, so there is a context and place where "all things" applies in Scripture?

How about Mark 4:34 where Jesus explained "all things" to his disciples? Another context right?

So Colossians 1:16 actually applies to the context of the church in which God created the visible and invisible framework through Jesus. The context directly says it's about the church:

18And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence.

and

John 1:3 (NIV) — 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Context again.

Verse 2 says "He was with God in the beginning." Therefore the all things that were made in verse 3 refers to the previously mentioned God doing the making.

which show He could not be a created creature

Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14, and the fact that Jesus is a man should show you Jesus is a creature. Genesis 1:27 says God created mankind. Jesus is a man who was made out of the same matter, comounds... atoms... and elements as Adam was.

as well as the fact prototokos carries metaphorical meanings as well as literal and gave scripture

FIRSTBORN PROTOTOKOS GR SOMETIMES USED TO DENOTE PREEMINENCE 0R HEADSHIP OR EVEN FAVORITISM. IT IS SOMETIMES TRANSFERRED

Ex. 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son,

Psa. 89:27 And I will make him the firstborn,
the highest of the kings of the earth.


1Chr. 5:1 The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel (for he was the firstborn, but because he defiled his father’s couch, his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph the son of Israel, so that he could not be enrolled as the oldest son; 2 though Judah became strong among his brothers and a chief came from him, yet the birthright belonged to Joseph), 3 the sons of Reuben, the firstborn of Israel: Hanoch, Pallu, Hezron, and Carmi.

Gen. 41:50 Before the year of famine came, two sons were born to Joseph. Asenath, the daughter of Potiphera priest of On, bore them to him. 51 Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh. “For,” he said, “God has made me forget all my hardship and all my father’s house.” 52 The name of the second he called Ephraim, “For God has made me fruitful in the land of my affliction.”

Jer. 31:9 With weeping they shall come,
and with pleas for mercy I will lead them back,
I will make them walk by brooks of water,
in a straight path in which they shall not stumble,
for I am a father to Israel,
and Ephraim is my firstborn.

I am aware of those applying to a different context, but that's a category error in regards to Jesus. Jesus is the "begotten" firstborn son in Scripture, not the uncreated eternal never-begotten Son.

John 1
18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Hebrews 1
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

 

[TomL]

Isaiah recorded what he saw during the reign as Uzziah as a vision. It's not literal and that part doesn't apply to Jesus anyway according to what John recorded in John 12:41. The only part that applies to Jesus is Isaiah 6:10.

Read again

John 12:37–41 (KJV 1900) — 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

And identify the pronoun him

Isaiah 1
1This is the vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Verse?


Jesus didn't raise himself from the dead so the God who raised Jesus from the dead isn't Jesus. They are not the same Lord. Note, John 2:22 says Jesus was "raised from the dead." So it doesn't follow that in Romans 10:13 that Jesus is YHWH.

Didn't he

John 10:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

It says Jesus was "given" his name while YHWH said YHWH is His name forever. If YHWH was given His name then that wasn't His name forever. You can't shoehorn Jesus into being God without creating an avalanche of contradictions. Means Jesus isn't YHWH.

Can you claiming the name Yahweh is not the name that is above every other name

PS Don;t forget the second person emptied himself

But I showed from a comparison of O.T. and N.T. Jesus is legitimately called Yahweh

and

Exodus 23:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

Philippians 2
9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place
and gave Him the name above all names,

as above previous to that

Exodus 23:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

Exodus 3
15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

Hebrews 1:10 begins with "And" therefore it is conjoined to verse 9 that refers to the previously mentioned God being the one who anointed Jesus. Therefore, the Creator in Hebrews 1:10 isn't Jesus.

Sorry but all this was stated of the son

Hebrews 1:7–14 (KJV 1900) — 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

This one is quite a stretch.

Another stretch. Being holy isn't good enough to write someone in as God. We are also commanded to be holy in 1 Peter 1:15-16.

You have laser focused in on the wrong idea. Jesus lacks about two dozen titles and/or descriptions of God in the Bible. There are also some examples of others who are not Jesus having some of the titles of God.

You have not shown that and I posted only a few of the many I could name

Creator, coming one, redeemer, savior, shepard, king of kings, lord of lords, first and last, etc

to be continued

 

[Runningman]

Gen 22:11-14
But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"


"Here I am," he replied.


12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."


13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided."

What about it? The angel is speaking of God as the one Abraham fears and not referring to himself as the one Abraham fears.

Exodus 3:2, 5
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed…And he said, Draw not nigh thither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.”

It says the angel appeared. Yes the mountain is holy ground. And?

Judg 6:11-28
The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, "The Lord is with you, mighty warrior."


13 "But sir," Gideon replied, "if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our fathers told us about when they said, 'Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt? But now the Lord has abandoned us and put us into the hand of Midian."


14 The Lord turned to him and said, "Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian's hand. Am I not sending you?"


15 "But Lord,” Gideon asked, "how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family."


16 The Lord answered, "I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites together."


17 Gideon replied, "If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you."

Non sequitur. You are making the assumption that when the angel of the LORD is present that the LORD cannot also be present.

And the Lord said, "I will wait until you return."


19 Gideon went in, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak.


20 The angel of God said to him, "Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth." And Gideon did so. 21 With the tip of the staff that was in his hand, the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, "Ah, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!"


23 But the Lord said to him, "Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die."


24 So Gideon built an altar to the Lord there and called it The Lord is Peace. To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.


25 That same night the Lord said to him, "Take the second bull from your father's herd, the one seven years old.Tear down your father's altar to Baal and cut down the Asherah pole beside it. 26 Then build a proper kind of altar to the Lord your God on the top of this height. Using the wood of the Asherah pole that you cut down, offer the second bull as a burnt offering."


27 So Gideon took ten of his servants and did as the Lord told him. But because he was afraid of his family and the men of the town, he did it at night rather than in the daytime.


28 In the morning when the men of the town got up, there was Baal's altar, demolished, with the Asherah pole beside it cut down and the second bull sacrificed on the newly built altar!


conclusion: you have been refuted by the word of God and your bias shown to be false concerning the angel of the Lord who is called YHWH and worshiped as God. Created angels are forbidden to be worshiped and refuse worship.

hope this helps !!!

You have refuted nothing. You are making inferences and deductions based on logical fallacies.

If what you are saying is so then why is the AOTL not the LORD in Zechariah 1?

Zechariah 1
11And the riders answered the angel of the LORD who was standing among the myrtle trees, “We have patrolled the earth, and behold, all the earth is at rest and tranquil.”

12Then the angel of the LORD said, “How long, O LORD of Hosts, will You withhold mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been angry these seventy years?”

13So the LORD spoke kind and comforting words to the angel who was speaking with me.

14Then the angel who was speaking with me said, “Proclaim this word: This is what the LORD of Hosts says: ‘I am very jealous for Jerusalem and Zion, 15but I am fiercely angry with the nations that are at ease. For I was a little angry, but they have added to the calamity.b’

16Therefore this is what the LORD says: ‘I will return to Jerusalem with mercy, and there My house will be rebuilt, declares the LORD of Hosts, and a measuring line will be stretched out over Jerusalem.’

17Proclaim further that this is what the LORD of Hosts says: ‘My cities will again overflow with prosperity; the LORD will again comfort Zion and choose Jerusalem.’ ”

 

[TomL]

I am aware of those applying to a different context, but that's a category error in regards to Jesus. Jesus is the "begotten" firstborn son in Scripture, not the uncreated eternal never-begotten Son.

John 1
18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Hebrews 1
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

You believe Jesus was the result of God having intercourse?

With whom did he beget him?

I thought you argue he was created not begotten

however

John 1:18 (ESV) — 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

John 1:18 (NIV) — 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

John 1:18 (NASB 2020) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him.

Monogenos carries a meaning of unique one of a kind, only



My Bible Word Study




LEMMA
μονογενής monogenēs one and only; only; only-begotten; unique; alone
LXGNTLEX one and only; only
LXLXXLEX only-begotten; unique; alone
BAGD
GELNT
TDNT
VCEDONTW
ESL
Louw-Nida unique, only
MGLNT only, only begotten
DBL Greek unique
WSNTDICT
LXGRCANLEX one and only; only; one and only
NASB Dictionaries only begotten
MCEDONTW only-begotten; only-born; unique
VEDONTW
LSJ the only member of a kin; kind; only, single
LEH LXX Lexicon the only member of a kin, only-begotten, only; id.; alone in its kind, one only
IGEL only-begotten; single; one and the same
TDNTA
BEDBW
CDWGTHB only-born; sole; only (begotten, child)
PLGNT
LALS only-begotten; unique; alone; יָחִיד; only; lonely, deserted
STGHD only-born

same here

John 3:16 (ESV) — 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16 (NIV) — 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.


BTW the phrase from Heb 1:5 appears here also

Acts 13:33 (KJV 1900) — 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

 

[civic]

It has been recorded that Jesus denied that he is God in the verses below from the KJV:

Matthew 19​

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.​

​

Mark 10​

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.​

​

Luke 18​

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.​

Based on the above Scripture, we can find the following information:

Jesus rhetorically questions why he is being called "good" and says that only God is good. This means that Jesus is distinguishing himself from God and that absolute goodness belongs exclusively to God. In saying this, Jesus denies that he possesses the absolute goodness that God has.

This distinction that Jesus pointed out between himself and God is evident in his rhetorical question about why he is being called good. If Jesus were God, then it would not be consistent for him to deny being called good and thus deny having this divine attribute of God.

Since Jesus denied having the absolute goodness of God, Jesus strongly inferred that he is just a teacher and a prophet. In John 8:28, Jesus stated, "I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." Therefore, Jesus was himself taught by his God and Father. Needing to be taught by God means that Jesus is not omniscient and didn't inherently know the things he himself was teaching until he was taught.

Therefore, Jesus denied being God.

The Father denied being God, and never once said " I am God " .

see how easy it is to make an argument from silence lol.

and BTW- Jesus in saying why tallest Me good was making the point He is God in the narrative as I pointed out. So your OP is nothing but a failure and based upon a false presupposition.

 

[TomL]

Revelation 1:18 says the first and the last died. Is it your stance that the first and last is not immortal? Or can it be that first and last refers to a beginning, end, and is not a descriptor of an eternal God? Answer this and you'll be ready to hear what this means.

Nope It is my position Jesus was both man and God. As a man he could and did die

but you are still left with the fact he is called the first and the last the same as Yahweh

and scripture

Revelation 1:7–8 (KJV 1900) — 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:17–18 (KJV 1900) — 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

1 Timothy 6:15 isn't about Jesus. Verses 14-15 refer to the King of kings and Lord of lords bringing about the appearance of Jesus, but Jesus doesn't know when he's returning according to Matthew 24:36.

1 Timothy 6:14–16 (KJV 1900) — 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Jesus Christ is the near antecedant but see also

Revelation 17:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Revelation 19:13–16 (KJV 1900) — 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Jesus is clearly the king of kings and the lord of lords

The word order here is different. It says "Lord of lords and King of kings" to show distinction between God and Jesus. Jesus is technically never called "King of kings and Lord of lords" in the Bible.

You need to give this one up

Jesus is plainly the king of kings and the lord of lords

Revelation 17:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Revelation 19:13–16 (KJV 1900) — 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

[synergy]

Acts 3:13 proves Jesus isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So what you're proposing is very disingenuous. Why would Jesus not being God in Acts 3:13 somehow help your premise that Jesus is the I AM?

Since each Person of the Trinity is “God” then the name “God” can be assigned to anyone of the Three Persons, this time to the Father in Acts 3:13. This is so simple a concept that only a Judaizer will refuse to understand it.

The angel speaking for God doesn't presuppose he is God. You would have the angel not be a messenger, but rather the originator of the message. Doesn't make sense and contradicts Scripture. So I take it you're going to ignore all of the examples of the AOTL not being the LORD and keep pushing forward with the same narrative that the AOTL is the LORD? lol

So you're saying that it's not God that is speaking in Ex 3 even though He did in fact say that He is God? Boy, you are going up against God Himself here. The "Angel" reference is the Narrators reference. Furthermore, when Prophets would speak for God they would preface their statements with "thus says the Lord". There is no such thing here. You are therefore, going up against God's statement here. Do you really want to misrepresent God for the purposes of propping up your Judaizing ideas?

 

[Runningman]

@civic address this question please.

If what you are saying is so then why is the AOTL not the LORD in Zechariah 1?

Zechariah 1
11And the riders answered the angel of the LORD who was standing among the myrtle trees, “We have patrolled the earth, and behold, all the earth is at rest and tranquil.”

12Then the angel of the LORD said, “How long, O LORD of Hosts, will You withhold mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been angry these seventy years?”

13So the LORD spoke kind and comforting words to the angel who was speaking with me.

14Then the angel who was speaking with me said, “Proclaim this word: This is what the LORD of Hosts says: ‘I am very jealous for Jerusalem and Zion, 15but I am fiercely angry with the nations that are at ease. For I was a little angry, but they have added to the calamity.b’

16Therefore this is what the LORD says: ‘I will return to Jerusalem with mercy, and there My house will be rebuilt, declares the LORD of Hosts, and a measuring line will be stretched out over Jerusalem.’

17Proclaim further that this is what the LORD of Hosts says: ‘My cities will again overflow with prosperity; the LORD will again comfort Zion and choose Jerusalem.’ ”