Jesus denied being God

[synergy]

That would be fallaciously begging the question since "ego eimi" doesn't automatically transfer to one declaring they are God. It's said all over the New Testament, hundreds of times, and you randomly assign deity to Jesus when he said it, but not others? Why would you conclude Jesus is God when he didn't say so in John 8, but instead said he is a man in John 8:40? Ball is back in your court already. You have not provided proof, but rather a semantical argument that isn't consistent in Scripture.

Where is the phrase "ἐγώ εἰμι" anywhere in John 8:40? The balls in your course to say that it is.

(John 8:40) νῦν δὲ ζητεῖτέ με ἀποκτεῖναι, ἄνθρωπον ὃς τὴν ἀλήθειαν ὑμῖν λελάληκα, ἣν ἤκουσα παρὰ τοῦ Θεοῦ· τοῦτο ᾿Αβραὰμ οὐκ ἐποίησεν.

 

[Runningman]

Where is the phrase "ἐγώ εἰμι" anywhere in John 8:40? The balls in your course to say that it is.

(John 8:40) νῦν δὲ ζητεῖτέ με ἀποκτεῖναι, ἄνθρωπον ὃς τὴν ἀλήθειαν ὑμῖν λελάληκα, ἣν ἤκουσα παρὰ τοῦ Θεοῦ· τοῦτο ᾿Αβραὰμ οὐκ ἐποίησεν.

It's not in John 8:40, but Jesus said he is a man in John 8:40 and now you're saying he's God after he said "I am." The point is, was the man in John 9:9 God, too, after he said "I am" or do you have a different standard for others? I know the answer, but I want to see if you'll admit it. You are trying to argue a man is God and it isn't working.

 

[synergy]

Pick your versions, pick your scholars, we all do anyway. My point is that you have only provided a surface-level argument and I have already shown how it doesn't even make sense. The way it's used in Exodus 3:14 is actually grammatically correct, but randomly ending in sentence with "I am" is unconventional, not how Jesus talked, or anyone else or that matter.

You're now desecrating the Alexandrian Jewish Scholars who rendered God's name as "ἐγώ εἰμι"! Your desecration knows no bounds.

The Greek's "I am" is based on the context. Here's an example from John 9:9, the ESV, "Some said, “It is he.” Others said, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, “I am the man.”

That was not Jesus who said that. That's why "he" or the "the man" is added in the English to make that clear.

Wow. Why didn't they translate it as just "I am?" Because "I am" is a dogmatic translation. Doesn't even make sense.

Wow! You continue to desecrate the Alexandrian Jewish Scholars who correctly rendered God's name as "ἐγώ εἰμι"! Your desecration knows no bounds. Who are you going to desecrate next?

 

[Runningman]

You're now desecrating the Alexandrian Jewish Scholars who rendered God's name as "ἐγώ εἰμι"! Your desecration knows no bounds.

That was not Jesus who said that.

Wow! You continue to desecrate the Alexandrian Jewish Scholars who correctly rendered God's name as "ἐγώ εἰμι"! Your desecration knows no bounds. Who are you going to desecrate next?

Don't try to change the subject with your gaslighting because I have you where I want you now.

Your argument is "ἐγώ εἰμι" means someone is God in Greek now you're backpedaling fast away from that argument. John 9:9 demonstrates the fallacy of your reasoning.

Don't worry, I'm a good sport. Please explain how Jesus saying "I am" transfers to a claim to deity. Where did Jesus ever directly say he is God just like YHWH did?

 

[synergy]

Don't try to change the subject with your gaslighting because I have you where I want you now.

You're the one who changed the subject to scholars when you wrote "pick your scholars". So now that I nailed you on scholars you want to run away from that topic that you chose, I see.

Run Runningman Run!!!

Your argument is "ἐγώ εἰμι" means someone is God in Greek now you're backpedaling fast away from that argument. John 9:9 demonstrates the fallacy of your reasoning.

First of all, it was not Jesus who said that. Second of all, John 9:9 clearly shows who it is that is being referred to. That's why there's an extra "he" or the "the man" is added in the English to make it clear that it is not God who is being referred to here.

(John 9:9) Some said, This is he. Others said, He is like him. He said, I am he.

So the ball's in your court to explain how the phrase "ἐγώ εἰμι" aligns with your Judaizing principles.

 

[dwight92070]

Good job, so anywhere "I am" is said in Greek it means they are God?

That's a silly and sarcastic response, because you can't come up with anything of substance to "cancel" the truth of scripture that Jesus is God.
Obviously, wherever "I am" is said, it depends on who is speaking and the context, as to whether they are God or not.

For example:

Is. 41:4 "I, the Lord, am the first, and with the last. I AM HE."
Is. 43:10 "You are My witnesses, declares the Lord, and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I AM HE. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me."
Is. 43:12-13 " 'So you are My witnesses", declares the Lord, "and I am God, even from eternity I AM HE, ..."
Is. 46:4 "Even to your old age I AM HE ..."
Is. 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I AM HE, I am the first, I am also the last."

Now compare these with Jesus' words:

John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM HE, you will die in your sins.
John 8:28 " ... When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM HE, ..."
John 8:58 " ... Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM."
John 18:4-6 "So Jesus ... said to them, 'Whom do you seek'?" They answered Him, 'Jesus the Nazarene.' He said to them "I AM HE." And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them. So when He said to them "I AM HE", they drew back and fell to the ground."

"Exhibit U" Jesus identified Himself with the "I AM" and the "I AM HE" of the Old Testament, both of which refer to God. Therefore Jesus is God.

 

[Complete]

It has been recorded that Jesus denied that he is God in the verses below from the KJV:

Matthew 19​

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.​

​

Mark 10​

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.​

​

Luke 18​

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.​

Based on the above Scripture, we can find the following information:

Jesus rhetorically questions why he is being called "good" and says that only God is good. This means that Jesus is distinguishing himself from God and that absolute goodness belongs exclusively to God. In saying this, Jesus denies that he possesses the absolute goodness that God has.

This distinction that Jesus pointed out between himself and God is evident in his rhetorical question about why he is being called good. If Jesus were God, then it would not be consistent for him to deny being called good and thus deny having this divine attribute of God.

Since Jesus denied having the absolute goodness of God, Jesus strongly inferred that he is just a teacher and a prophet. In John 8:28, Jesus stated, "I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." Therefore, Jesus was himself taught by his God and Father. Needing to be taught by God means that Jesus is not omniscient and didn't inherently know the things he himself was teaching until he was taught.

Therefore, Jesus denied being God.

'And Jesus said unto him,
Why callest thou me good?
none is good, save one,
that is, God.'
(Luke 18:19 +Mark 10:18 & Matt.19:17)

'good' = agathos (G18) - adjective meaning good, either physical or moral.
a) of persons, referring to God (Mk.10:18)
b) of men, good, benevolent, as opposed to evil.
c) of things - fertile.(Lk.8:8), healthy (Mt 7:17)
d) subst. the good marally (Rom.2:10) divine advantage ((Rom. 8:28)
e) good things, either possessions or deeds (Lk.1:53; Js.5:29;

Hello there, @Runningman,

There is a figure of speech in the verses (above) that you have quoted in your OP, called in English, conciliation: and is used, by way of precaution, to secure indulgence, or to conciliate others, with reference to something we are about to say. This helps me to understand the response of the Lord Jesus Christ to this 'ruler'.

The Lord only ever spoke the words that God gave Him to speak, so there was a very good reason why these words were spoken. There was a work to be accomplished, a death to die, but in God's time and in fulfilment of the OT Scriptures. Not prematurely, as in Gethsemane. The enemies of God were eager to find reason to put the Lord Jesus Christ to death, if He had given cause. To admit to being God would have been cause indeed. You are walking on holy ground my friend, walk circumspectly, and honour both the Father and the Son in the Spirit, or be silent.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour and Lord,
now risen and glorified.
Chris

 

[Runningman]

You're the one who changed the subject to scholars when you wrote "pick your scholars". So now that I nailed you on scholars you want to run away from that topic that you chose, I see.

Run Runningman Run!!!

First of all, it was not Jesus who said that. Second of all, John 9:9 clearly shows who it is that is being referred to. That's why there's an extra "he" or the "the man" is added in the English to make it clear that it is not God who is being referred to here.

(John 9:9) Some said, This is he. Others said, He is like him. He said, I am he.

So the ball's in your court to explain how the phrase "ἐγώ εἰμι" aligns with your Judaizing principles.

Actually, I insist we stay on the topic you brought up. I want to see you attempt to conflate Jesus with the I AM. Seems you have not done that yet. Ready for the bombshell? Jesus isn't the I AM. LOL. I am going to prove it now that you have apparently ran out of talking points. It's actually quite simple.

Step 1: Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob:

Acts 3​

13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus...​

Step 2: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the I AM:

Exodus 3​

14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”​

​

15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.​

​

Step 3: Jesus isn't YHWH, nor is named YHWH, even Jesus' real name, Yeshuah, means YHWH saves:

You don't have a Biblical argument aside from "Lookie here! Jesus said the words "I am!" that means he's God!" but when others say "I am" it's total silence from you.

 

[Runningman]

That's a silly and sarcastic response, because you can't come up with anything of substance to "cancel" the truth of scripture that Jesus is God.
Obviously, wherever "I am" is said, it depends on who is speaking and the context, as to whether they are God or not.

For example:

Is. 41:4 "I, the Lord, am the first, and with the last. I AM HE."
Is. 43:10 "You are My witnesses, declares the Lord, and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I AM HE. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me."
Is. 43:12-13 " 'So you are My witnesses", declares the Lord, "and I am God, even from eternity I AM HE, ..."
Is. 46:4 "Even to your old age I AM HE ..."
Is. 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I AM HE, I am the first, I am also the last."

Now compare these with Jesus' words:

John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM HE, you will die in your sins.
John 8:28 " ... When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM HE, ..."
John 8:58 " ... Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM."
John 18:4-6 "So Jesus ... said to them, 'Whom do you seek'?" They answered Him, 'Jesus the Nazarene.' He said to them "I AM HE." And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them. So when He said to them "I AM HE", they drew back and fell to the ground."

"Exhibit U" Jesus identified Himself with the "I AM" and the "I AM HE" of the Old Testament, both of which refer to God. Therefore Jesus is God.

It's the only argument @synergy presented therefore it's the only argument that was addressed. Yes, it is completely valid to discuss the Greek grammar in the NT and LXX and even introduce other translations that say something different.

Jesus wasn't saying he is God in John 8:24-88,58. or John 18:4-6. Context says he's a man all throughout John 18 and Jesus said nothing to the contrary nor claimed he is God.

John 8
40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing.

The only person Jesus definitively say "I am" x person was in regards to being the Messiah.

John 4
25The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When He comes, He will explain everything to us.”
26Jesus answered, “I who speak to you am He.”

Did Jesus ever say "I am God?" No?

 

[Runningman]

'And Jesus said unto him,
Why callest thou me good?
none is good, save one,
that is, God.'
(Luke 18:19 +Mark 10:18 & Matt.19:17)

'good' = agathos (G18) - adjective meaning good, either physical or moral.
a) of persons, referring to God (Mk.10:18)
b) of men, good, benevolent, as opposed to evil.
c) of things - fertile.(Lk.8:8), healthy (Mt 7:17)
d) subst. the good marally (Rom.2:10) divine advantage ((Rom. 8:28)
e) good things, either possessions or deeds (Lk.1:53; Js.5:29;

Hello there, @Runningman,

There is a figure of speech in the verses (above) that you have quoted in your OP, called in English, conciliation: and is used, by way of precaution, to secure indulgence, or to conciliate others, with reference to something we are about to say. This helps me to understand the response of the Lord Jesus Christ to this 'ruler'.

The Lord only ever spoke the words that God gave Him to speak, so there was a very good reason why these words were spoken. There was a work to be accomplished, a death to die, but in God's time and in fulfilment of the OT Scriptures. Not prematurely, as in Gethsemane. The enemies of God were eager to find reason to put the Lord Jesus Christ to death, if He had given cause. To admit to being God would have been cause indeed. You are walking on holy ground my friend, walk circumspectly, and honour both the Father and the Son in the Spirit, or be silent.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour and Lord,
now risen and glorified.
Chris

Doesn't fit scripture.

While Jesus was himself a teacher, (Matthew 23:10) Jesus's teachings were not his own (John 7:16) because he needed to be taught by the Father (John 8:28.) Therefore when the man came up to Jesus and said "Good teacher..." (Luke 18:18) Jesus responded with class, deferring all goodness to God. (Luke 18:19)

To Jesus, the Father is God (John 20:17, Matthew 27:47.) When Jesus mentions God he's mentioning his God, his Father, YHWH. Jesus said in Luke 18:19 "“Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone." Therefore, in the context, Jesus is denying being God because he isn't really the "Good teacher" because God is the Good Teacher; Jesus isn't the teacher from which his teachings originated from. Jesus isn't his own God, he isn't the Father, therefore there isn't a Trinity. It's a false doctrine. Jesus' only God is the Father, therefore a real Christian's only God should be the Father. Walk as Jesus walked, do as Jesus did, and you will be no means go wrong. Isn't that true?

You're treading on holy ground. I would advise you to respect the Scriptures and make every effort to not distort them regardless of how strongly you feel about them or how much you think you know. God may wink at times of ignorance, but when someone's eyes begin to see it's time to repent.

 

[dwight92070]

Actually, I insist we stay on the topic you brought up. I want to see you attempt to conflate Jesus with the I AM. Seems you have not done that yet. Ready for the bombshell? Jesus isn't the I AM. LOL. I am going to prove it now that you have apparently ran out of talking points. It's actually quite simple.

Step 1: Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob:

Acts 3​

13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus...​

Step 2: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the I AM:

Exodus 3​

14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”​

​

15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.​

​

Step 3: Jesus isn't YHWH, nor is named YHWH, even Jesus' real name, Yeshuah, means YHWH saves:

You don't have a Biblical argument aside from "Lookie here! Jesus said the words "I am!" that means he's God!" but when others say "I am" it's total silence from you.

You don't believe the scripture. Jesus said "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into being, I am." The Jews immediately picked up stones to throw at Him. They knew what He was saying. Apparently you don't. Anyone who is honest knows that Jesus is both claiming to have existed before Abraham - and therefore to be God. Because no man has EVER pre-existed before His one human life -except Jesus.

"Exhibit V" Not only did John the Baptist say that Jesus existed before him- even though Jesus was born 6 months after John, but Jesus Himself claims to have existed before Abraham. No man has EVER pre-existed, other than Jesus, which means that He is more than a man - He is God.

 

[TomL]

This is some very strange scholarly material as it is completely wrong. The word "form" in Philippians 2:6 means form, shape, outward appearance in Scripture and the physical appearance as you correctly suggested in Mark 16:12 (your comment #129) because God does not have a physical appearance. God does not have a physical appearance, but Jesus does. This does not refer to Jesus being visually the same as God, but rather the same kind of behaviors, i.e., holiness, righteousness, etc. What you are suggesting is a completely foreign concept in all of Scripture.

Where this word is used in the Greek Septuagint, it 100% of the time refers to the outward appearance, such as what is beheld with the eyes. Some examples below:

Job 4
15A spirit glided past my face;
the hair of my flesh stood up.
16It stood still,
but I could not discern its appearance.
A form was before my eyes;
there was silence, then I heard a voice:

Isaiah 44
13The craftsman of wood extends a measuring line; he outlines it with a marker. He works it with carving knives and outlines it with a compass, and makes it like the form of a man, like the beauty of mankind, so that it may sit in a house.

Daniel 3
19Then Nabuchodonosor was filled with wrath, and the form of his countenance was changed toward Sedrach, Misach, and Abdenago: and he gave orders to heat the furnace seven times more than usual, until it should burn to the uttermost.

God has no outward form and these citiation were from noted greek scholars

But it seems what you claim

i.e., holiness, righteousness,

are attributes of and descriptive of the nature of God

If you are claiming The son is as holy and righteous as God then you are affirming his divine sameness as God

Thanks

 

[dwight92070]

It would be pretty stupid for Jesus to tell everyone "I am God." He most likely would have been crucified much sooner, if He had done that - along with a wide-spread opinion that He was crazy. Only some thought he was crazy as it was. In fact, He didn't even tell everyone, "I am the Messiah". I believe we only have a record of Him saying that twice - once to the woman at the well and the other time to the High Priest, just before they crucified Him. Several times He sternly told His disciples NOT to tell anyone that He was the Messiah.

And besides that, He commended Peter for having faith, allowing God to reveal to him exactly who Jesus was. The same is true regarding our believing that Jesus is God. Jesus blesses us when we look at ALL the scripture and the Father reveals to us that Jesus is God.

When the Father revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, I believe it was also revealed to Peter that the Messiah was synonymous with God. Peter said;
" ... To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ." 2 Pet. 1:1

"Exhibit W" Peter calls Jesus "our God and Savior". Therefore Jesus is God.

Even the apostle John recognized this. He said that when Jesus was "calling God His own Father," He was "making Himself equal with God." John 5:18 There's only one way to be equal with God - that is to BE God.

"Exhibit X" The apostle John said that Jesus was making Himself equal with God, because He was calling God His own Father. Therefore Jesus is God.

 

[TomL]

You don't believe the scripture. Jesus said "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into being, I am." The Jews immediately picked up stones to throw at Him. They knew what He was saying. Apparently you don't. Anyone who is honest knows that Jesus is both claiming to have existed before Abraham - and therefore to be God. Because no man has EVER pre-existed before His one human life -except Jesus.

"Exhibit V" Not only did John the Baptist say that Jesus existed before him- even though Jesus was born 6 months after John, but Jesus Himself claims to have existed before Abraham. No man has EVER pre-existed, other than Jesus, which means that He is more than a man - He is God.

Yep and it is Kind of hard to deny Christ's pre-existence when he created all things


Colossians 1:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Ephesians 3:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 1:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

 

[synergy]

Actually, I insist we stay on the topic you brought up. I want to see you attempt to conflate Jesus with the I AM. Seems you have not done that yet. Ready for the bombshell? Jesus isn't the I AM. LOL. I am going to prove it now that you have apparently ran out of talking points. It's actually quite simple.

Step 1: Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob:

Acts 3​

13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus...​

Step 2: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the I AM:

Exodus 3​

14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”​

​

15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.​

​

Step 3: Jesus isn't YHWH, nor is named YHWH, even Jesus' real name, Yeshuah, means YHWH saves:

You don't have a Biblical argument aside from "Lookie here! Jesus said the words "I am!" that means he's God!" but when others say "I am" it's total silence from you.

Speaking of bombs, now you’re running off to Acts 3:13 since your interpretations of John 8:40 and John 9:9 exploded like a bomb in your face. You’re all over the map frantically trying to find a verse that proves your Judaizing point. Instead of that, why don’t we stick with Exodus 3 so that we can nail down who is it exactly that is speaking forth from within the Burning Bush. I’ll talk about Acts 3:13 afterwards so that I prove once more that I do not run away from verses like you always do.

Note that in Ex 3:2 the Person in the burning bush is the Angel of Jehovah (commonly referred to as Angel of the Lord).

(Exo 3:2) And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a flame of fire, out of the midst of a thorn bush. And he looked. And behold! The thorn bush burned with fire! And the thorn bush was not burned up.

In fact, the Angel/Messenger of the Lord is mentioned multiple times as appearing to many people and prophets in the OT, as recorded in these verses:

• Genesis 16:7-13; 22:11-15; 31:11,13; 48:15-16
• Exodus 3:2,4; 13:21; 14:19
• Judges 2:1; 6:22-23; 13:3-22
• Zechariah 3:1-2

It is a Biblical stated fact that the Father has never appeared to anyone except for Christ. With that in mind, are you willing to go on record that the Angel of the Lord is God the Father? Trinitarians explain this as the Pre-Incarnate Word of God. How do you explain Ex 3:2?

As for John 4:25-26, since each Person of the Trinity is “God” then the name “God” can be assigned to anyone of the Three Persons, this time to the Father. It's so simple that only a Judaizer will refuse to understand that Biblical fact.

 

[Runningman]

You don't believe the scripture. Jesus said "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into being, I am." The Jews immediately picked up stones to throw at Him. They knew what He was saying. Apparently you don't. Anyone who is honest knows that Jesus is both claiming to have existed before Abraham - and therefore to be God. Because no man has EVER pre-existed before His one human life -except Jesus.

"Exhibit V" Not only did John the Baptist say that Jesus existed before him- even though Jesus was born 6 months after John, but Jesus Himself claims to have existed before Abraham. No man has EVER pre-existed, other than Jesus, which means that He is more than a man - He is God.

So you pretty much reject Acts 3:13 where Jesus is clearly not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? That's the only way your so-called "Exhibit" survives. It's all based on lies and denials of Scripture.

 

[Runningman]

It would be pretty stupid for Jesus to tell everyone "I am God." He most likely would have been crucified much sooner, if He had done that - along with a wide-spread opinion that He was crazy. Only some thought he was crazy as it was. In fact, He didn't even tell everyone, "I am the Messiah". I believe we only have a record of Him saying that twice - once to the woman at the well and the other time to the High Priest, just before they crucified Him. Several times He sternly told His disciples NOT to tell anyone that He was the Messiah.

And besides that, He commended Peter for having faith, allowing God to reveal to him exactly who Jesus was. The same is true regarding our believing that Jesus is God. Jesus blesses us when we look at ALL the scripture and the Father reveals to us that Jesus is God.

When the Father revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, I believe it was also revealed to Peter that the Messiah was synonymous with God. Peter said;
" ... To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ." 2 Pet. 1:1

"Exhibit W" Peter calls Jesus "our God and Savior". Therefore Jesus is God.

Even the apostle John recognized this. He said that when Jesus was "calling God His own Father," He was "making Himself equal with God." John 5:18 There's only one way to be equal with God - that is to BE God.

"Exhibit X" The apostle John said that Jesus was making Himself equal with God, because He was calling God His own Father. Therefore Jesus is God.

Jesus didn't say he was God before he was born or after he was taken to heaven either. Maybe Jesus isn't God. That's what it looks like.

 

[Runningman]

Yep and it is Kind of hard to deny Christ's pre-existence when he created all things


Colossians 1:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Ephesians 3:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 1:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

I see you have chosen the translation that obfuscates the truth by adding words to Scripture and giving the wrong idea with the word "by." The references in scripture that refer to creation in context of Jesus aren't about him being they author. The Greek refers to the instrumentality of Jesus by God to create through him in context of the church.

For example, Jesus isn't God in Colossians 1:15, but rather the image of the invisible God. Now your doctrine becomes one where someone who isn't God is the creator. That's wrong.

The version of Eph. 3:9 you quoted. Wow. Where did that even come from. The name "Jesus Christ" is not even in the Greek manuscripts.

Hebrews 1:2, what... God created the worlds in these last days beginning 2000 years ago? No. It refers to the ages, namely the church age and messianic age. Please don't lose your critical thinking about ability to reason. God gave you a brain to understand these things with. The version you quoted is very dogmatic in it's translation.

 

[Runningman]

Speaking of bombs, now you’re running off to Acts 3:13 since your interpretations of John 8:40 and John 9:9 exploded like a bomb in your face. You’re all over the map frantically trying to find a verse that proves your Judaizing point. Instead of that, why don’t we stick with Exodus 3 so that we can nail down who is it exactly that is speaking forth from within the Burning Bush. I’ll talk about Acts 3:13 afterwards so that I prove once more that I do not run away from verses like you always do.

LoL running from Acts 3:13? That's my golden ticket that makes your premise lose all viability. Jesus is not the God of Abraham, etc. and is never called that. The I AM is the God of Abraham. Easy math here. Jesus isn't God. Sorry buddy, try a different angle with John 8:58. I gave you some good options. All you need to do is be honest with yourself, but it's difficult, I know, because I was a still a Trinitarian when I began seeing all of these things you're being shown here. You are a smart and honest person I am sure so you'll come around when you're ready.

Note that in Ex 3:2 the Person in the burning bush is the Angel of Jehovah (commonly referred to as Angel of the Lord).

(Exo 3:2) And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a flame of fire, out of the midst of a thorn bush. And he looked. And behold! The thorn bush burned with fire! And the thorn bush was not burned up.

In fact, the Angel/Messenger of the Lord is mentioned multiple times as appearing to many people and prophets in the OT, as recorded in these verses:

• Genesis 16:7-13; 22:11-15; 31:11,13; 48:15-16
• Exodus 3:2,4; 13:21; 14:19
• Judges 2:1; 6:22-23; 13:3-22
• Zechariah 3:1-2

It is a Biblical stated fact that the Father has never appeared to anyone except for Christ. With that in mind, are you willing to go on record that the Angel of the Lord is God the Father? Trinitarians explain this as the Pre-Incarnate Word of God. How do you explain Ex 3:2?

The AOTL is not the Father. The angel is just as it says, an angel who speaks for God, but isn't God. Yes it's true, the AOTL does act and speak on behalf of God, but they are never confused to be the same person in Scripture.

Here's are some good examples that should help:

Genesis 16:7-13 - the AOTL appears separately from the LORD and speaks about something the LORD said.

Revelation 19:9-10, Revelation 22:9 - the AOTL refused to be worshipped as God.

Judges 6:11-32 - the AOTL is a messenger of God, the angel leaves and God stays

Exodus 3:2 - the AOTL is a messenger of God

Judges 2:1 - the AOTL exercised delegated authority from God

Zechariah 1:13,14 - The angel of the LORD and the LORD speak to one another.

Matthew 1:24 - The angel of the Lord is present after Jesus was already a baby

Matthew 28:1-5 - The angel of the Lord is present after Jesus was resurrected.

As for John 4:25-26, since each Person of the Trinity is “God” then the name “God” can be assigned to anyone of the Three Persons, this time to the Father. It's so simple that only a Judaizer will refuse to understand that Biblical fact.

That's your doctrine attempting to explain the Bible rather than the Bible explaining your doctrine. That's going to be our problem. Your Trinity is not described or explained in Scripture. I have met some very honest Trinitarians who will humbly admit this and accept this. Will you?

 

[dwight92070]

So you pretty much reject Acts 3:13 where Jesus is clearly not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? That's the only way your so-called "Exhibit" survives. It's all based on lies and denials of Scripture.

So Jesus pre-existed before Abraham John 8:58, proving that He was God, and God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. There's no lies, only you denying the scripture John 8:58.
Nobody's rejecting Acts 3:13 The Father is glorifying the Son even as He did in Hebrews 1:8-9, calling the Son "God".