Jesus denied being God
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
By or through make no difference at all
The Son was there at the creation refuting your denial of pre-existence
Most translations read the world not ages however the point is moot
If he created the ages he was there before the ages once again refuting your denial of his pre-existence
You should follow your own advise and lose your critical thinking about ability to reason. God gave you a brain to understand these things with.
Your total inability to offer any semblance of a rebuttal for what I wrote about Acts 3:13 other than your lame statement of "that's your doctrine", is what you call a "golden ticket"!?!? Sorry but you're holding a fool's gold ticket.
I'm not sure if you realized the implications of what you just said concerning Ex 3. You said that the Angel of Jehovah (Ex 3:2), who called himself "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" (Ex 3:6), is purely an angel. You're calling God an angel in Ex 3. Do you seriously want to go with that? I'm more than willing to discuss the NT AOTL verses but let's finalize Ex 3 before we do that.
You should follow your own advise and (not) lose your critical thinking about ability to reason. God gave you a brain to understand these things with.
Yes
- Genesis 16:7–14. The angel of the Lord appears to Hagar. The angel speaks as God in the first person, and in verse 13 Hagar identifies "the LORD that spake unto her" as "Thou God seest me".
- Genesis 22:11–15. The angel of the Lord appears to Abraham and refers to God in the first person.
- Exodus 3:2–4. The angel of the Lord appears to Moses in a flame in verse 2, and God speaks to Moses from the flame in verse 4.
- Judges 13:3–22. The angel of the Lord appears to Manoah and his wife and, in verse 16, tells them to offer to the LORD if they are to make an offering ("And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah [...] if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD."). Later Manoah thought he and his wife will die for they "have seen God"
- Genesis 31:11. The angel of God calls out to Jacob in a dream and tells him "I am the God of Bethel".
- Exodus 14:19. The angel of God leads the camp of Israel, and also follows behind them, with the pillar of fire.
Absolutely! @Runningman has once again painted himself into a corner from which he will attempt to once again run away from as fast as his legs can take him. Just watch. The name he assigned himself describes him extremely well as a man who runs away from logic and Biblical facts.
Runningman
Well-known member
There is no mention of a Jesus, a Son, a Word, etc actively saying or doing anything before Abraham. All that exists were prophecies yet to be fulfilled at the time of their writings.
But Jesus isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, correct?
Runningman
Well-known member
@dwight92070 yes you should require Scripture for your beliefs concerning the Bible. So what you're saying is we need to understand the Bible based solely around something that is not described or explained, but rather a mystery? Then why are you here arguing in favor of something you cannot even explain? Do you realize how mad that sounds?
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Runningman
Well-known member
It makes a difference because the word "by" in English is more commonly associated with authorship, but the Greek doesn't allow for Jesus to be the author or the Creator. Jesus actually destroyed this idea in Revelation and Paul did the same in Colossians. He isn't the Creator, but was rather created:
Colossians 1
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Revelation 3
14“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.
For example, we have the entire Old Testament where Jesus isn't the Creator. We have John 1:9-10, Acts 4:24-27, Acts 17:24-25, Hebrews 1:10, etc. Your argument is that Jesus, who is not God but the "image of the invisible God" dethroning the actual Creator and being the Creator? It's completely unprecedented in Scripture.
All of the contexts in which God made or created through Jesus refer to the context of the church. Look at them again.
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Not for pre-existence it doesn't
Whether by or through Christ had to be pre-existently present
You keep ignoring that point
Runningman
Well-known member
Acts 3:13 proves Jesus isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So what you're proposing is very disingenuous. Why would Jesus not being God in Acts 3:13 somehow help your premise that Jesus is the I AM?
The angel speaking for God doesn't presuppose he is God. You would have the angel not be a messenger, but rather the originator of the message. Doesn't make sense and contradicts Scripture. So I take it you're going to ignore all of the examples of the AOTL not being the LORD and keep pushing forward with the same narrative that the AOTL is the LORD? lol
FIRSTBORN PROTOTOKOS GR SOMETIMES USED TO DENOTE PREEMINENCE 0R HEADSHIP OR EVEN FAVORITISM.
Ex. 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son,
Psa. 89:27 And I will make him the firstborn,
the highest of the kings of the earth.
1Chr. 5:1 The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel (for he was the firstborn, but because he defiled his father’s couch, his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph the son of Israel, so that he could not be enrolled as the oldest son; 2 though Judah became strong among his brothers and a chief came from him, yet the birthright belonged to Joseph), 3 the sons of Reuben, the firstborn of Israel: Hanoch, Pallu, Hezron, and Carmi.
Gen. 41:50 Before the year of famine came, two sons were born to Joseph. Asenath, the daughter of Potiphera priest of On, bore them to him. 51 Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh. “For,” he said, “God has made me forget all my hardship and all my father’s house.” 52 The name of the second he called Ephraim, “For God has made me fruitful in the land of my affliction.”
Jer. 31:9 With weeping they shall come,
and with pleas for mercy I will lead them back,
I will make them walk by brooks of water,
in a straight path in which they shall not stumble,
for I am a father to Israel,
and Ephraim is my firstborn.
and
Revelation 3:14 (NASB 2020) — 14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Origin of the creation of God, says this:
or even
Revelation 3:14 (NIV84) — 14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.
ἀρχή -ῆς, ἡ; (archē), n. beginning; ruler. Hebrew equivalent: רֹאשׁ 1 (28), תְּחִלָּה (9). LTW ἀρχή (Authority), ἀρχη (Divine Beings).
Noun Usage
1. ruler† — a person who rules or commands; especially understood as having primacy of authority. See also ἀρχηγός, ἡγεμών. Related Topics: Rule; Reign; Ruler; Providence; Sovereignty; Throne; Sovereign; Principalities and Powers.
Lk 12:11 ὅταν δὲ εἰσφέρωσιν ὑμᾶς ἐπὶ τὰς συναγωγὰς καὶ τὰς ἀρχὰς
1 Co 15:24 ὅταν καταργήσῃ πᾶσαν ἀρχὴν καὶ πᾶσαν ἐξουσίαν καὶ δύναμιν,
Tt 3:1 ἀρχαῖς ἐξουσίαις ὑποτάσσεσθαι
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).
Still not possible even taking your erroneous claims to show Christ did not pre-exist the baptist
Runningman
Well-known member
Genesis 16:7-13 - the AOTL appears separately from the LORD and speaks about something the LORD said.
Revelation 19:9-10, Revelation 22:9 - the AOTL refused to be worshipped as God.
Judges 6:11-32 - the AOTL is a messenger of God, the angel leaves and God stays
Exodus 3:2 - the AOTL is a messenger of God
Judges 2:1 - the AOTL exercised delegated authority from God
Zechariah 1:13,14 - The angel of the LORD and the LORD speak to one another.
Matthew 1:24 - The angel of the Lord is present after Jesus was already a baby
Matthew 28:1-5 - The angel of the Lord is present after Jesus was resurrected.
You ignored the point
Hagar identifies "the LORD that spake unto her" as "Thou God seest me".
- Exodus 3:2–4. The angel of the Lord appears to Moses in a flame in verse 2, and God speaks to Moses from the flame in verse 4.
you ignored this
Exodus 3:2–6 (NIV84) — 2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.” 4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.” 5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.
Judges 6:11-32
you ignore this
Judges 6:13–18 (NIV84) — 13 “But sir,” Gideon replied, “if the LORD is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our fathers told us about when they said, ‘Did not the LORD bring us up out of Egypt?’ But now the LORD has abandoned us and put us into the hand of Midian.” 14 The LORD turned to him and said, “Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian’s hand. Am I not sending you?” 15 “But Lord,” Gideon asked, “how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family.” 16 The LORD answered, “I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites together.” 17 Gideon replied, “If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you.” And the LORD said, “I will wait until you return.”
In Judges 2
The messenger of the Lord identified himself thusly
Judges 2:1–3 (NIV84) — 1 The angel of the LORD went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land that I swore to give to your forefathers. I said, ‘I will never break my covenant with you, 2 and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.’ Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this? 3 Now therefore I tell you that I will not drive them out before you; they will be thorns in your sides and their gods will be a snare to you.”
Runningman
Well-known member
I already know by example the angel and YHWH are not the same being or person so I will interpret those things with that in mind.
In Exodus 3:2-6, the angel appears in the burning bush, but then it says the LORD saw Moses and God called him from the bush. There is nothing preventing God and the angel being in the bush together in the context or grammar. There is also nothing that suggests that God can't use the angel for what the name suggests - as a messenger. That's how we don't ignore.
Same kind of situation in Judges 6:11-32. The angel spoke and then the LORD was there too. I don't see any issues. You do realize that the messenger is speaking for the LORD sometimes, right? The idea isn't that the LORD is somehow His own messenger. Then He wouldn't be the messenger.
Judges 2:1-3, another instance of the angel being a messenger. If a messenger says what God told the messenger to say then if you ignore the fact that it's a messenger speaking then you would misunderstand the angel for being the LORD. I understand how you came to the conclusion, but they aren't the same person.
Will you ignore the fact the angel and the LORD are speaking to one another here?
Zechariah 1
12Then the angel of the LORD said, “How long, O LORD of Hosts, will You withhold mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been angry these seventy years?”
13So the LORD spoke kind and comforting words to the angel who was speaking with me.
Runningman
Well-known member
Jesus as the firstborn is in regards to him being a human, literal offspring among brothers, and yes it can also refers to rank, but the scriptural example in context of Jesus refers to him being a human who was born.
Luke 2
7And she gave birth to her firstborn, a Son. She wrapped Him in swaddling cloths and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
It also refers to Jesus' new birth in his resurrection.
Colossians 1
18And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence.
civic
Well-known member
The Angel of the Lord is identified as YHWH many times in the OT snd not once is seen in the NT. Your NT references do not say “ The Angel of the Lord”.
Next
What did you do with
Hagar identifies "the LORD that spake unto her" as "Thou God seest me".
This is the pre-incarnate Christ who may be called God, LORD or even Yahweh
'
Whose glory did Isaiah see?
John 12:37–41 (KJV 1900) — 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
And there is nothing preventing the pre incarate Christ being this messenger of the lord and be denoted God, LORD or Yahweh
Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.
But the pre incarnate Christ did appear as God, LORD and even Yahweh
No as the pre-incarnate Christ has no problem communicating with the Father
see above
If of rank
You have no argument Jesus was a created being
and scripture states
Colossians 1:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
and
John 1:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
precludes Christ from being a created thing
civic
Well-known member
Yes indeed is does - the Creator cannot be created. Talk about an oxymoron lol.
