ego eimi.

God is the Supreme Being, yet Jesus is sent by, dependent on, and subject to that Supreme Being. Therefore he cannot be that Supreme Being.

This is true in a context, from the time of conception. He is the kin-related ie only begotten Son of God as opposed to adopted.

Jesus is the divine Word vicariously emotionally experiencing human identity under the influence of the non-omniscient human senses/nature. And as such He would call the Father the only true God, and not Himself. But He is still God in the sense of the Word. This is the hypostatic union.

This reconciles scriptures that imply He is not God with those that imply that He is.
 
YES IT IS. You have been given scripture adnauseum that proves what we believe, but by your own words and own choice you twist it to being not understandable.
I understand what you believe . . . I don't believe it.
Joh 1:1 kjv In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

First you have no idea when the beginning here was.
Isn't the beginning referring to Genesis 1 when God SPOKE, when God SAID, when God used His WORDS to CREATE???
Then you have no idea who the Word was. Want a hint?

And you have no idea that when the Word was with God , both being Spirit beings.
So, it seems the word - being God's word ---- it was with God in the beginning. Nope don't see it as referring to Spirit beings.
Here is a biggie....
Do you have any idea what the Word became?
I believe the word became flesh, became a human being and dwelt among us as the only Son from the Father, i.e. Jesus, the SON OF GOD, the Lord's Messiah.
Or Do you have any idea how that happened?
And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore (for this reason) the child to be born will be called holy----the SON OF GOD. (Luke 1:35)
Or Do you know why it happened?
Jesus is the salvation of God. . . . Jesus offers salvation to all humanity through faith in him.
Last, Do you know why they talk so much about the incarnation of Jesus?
I don't believe God came to earth to become a created being, a man, a human being.
I believe that Jesus was miraculously conceived and born of Mary - Mary was his mother . . . I do not believe that God was conceived and born of Mary and Mary was his mother.
God says he isn't a man; Jesus often refers to himself as a man.
I believe scripture consistently distinguishes Jesus, the Son of God aka God's Messiah from the Father, the only true God.
 
@Runningman

Please explain to us all Philippians 2:7. Please explain to us why and what the need was.

Below are a few translations.

King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Berean Standard Bible
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness

NEW WORLD TRANSLATION
No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But he stripped himself and took the form of a Servant and was in the form of the children of men, and was found in fashion as a man.

CJB
On the contrary, he emptied himself, in that he took the form of a slave by becoming like human beings are. And when he appeared as a human being,
 
I understand what you believe . . . I don't believe it.

Isn't the beginning referring to Genesis 1 when God SPOKE, when God SAID, when God used His WORDS to CREATE???

NO
So, it seems the word - being God's word ---- it was with God in the beginning. Nope don't see it as referring to Spirit beings.

Well since God is not a spirit... what do you suppose His blood type is.
I believe the word became flesh, became a human being and dwelt among us as the only Son from the Father, i.e. Jesus, the SON OF GOD, the Lord's Messiah.

As the incarnate son?
And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore (for this reason) the child to be born will be called holy----the SON OF GOD. (Luke 1:35)

Jesus is the salvation of God. . . . Jesus offers salvation to all humanity through faith in him.

I don't believe God came to earth to become a created being, a man, a human being.

Then what was he doing here?
I believe that Jesus was miraculously conceived and born of Mary - Mary was his mother .

VIRGIN Mary and who else? He was not a test tube baby or artificially inseminated.
. . I do not believe that God was conceived and born of Mary and Mary was his mother.
God says he isn't a man; Jesus often refers to himself as a man.

And explain why Phil 2:7 HAD TO HAPPEN.
King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
I believe scripture consistently distinguishes Jesus, the Son of God aka God's Messiah from the Father, the only true God.

Whatever you believe you have not done a deep study....
 
@Jim

I made a reply to @Runningman and in it I posted a link to Jack Cottrell...

He made a very profound statement that I have been seeing more and more on here and also in support of @civic 's statement of
"believing in another jesus is the same category as believing in another gospel- neither one will save anyone from their sins."

Here is what he said... and I well know who I might here from that is not a Jack supporter, LOL but I fully agree with this,

Jack Cottrell
The bottom line is this: a non-divine Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. A final reason why saving faith must include belief that Jesus is God is this: denying that Jesus is God is denying the true nature of the salvation he has earned for us.
This is exactly why trinitarianism is not the same religion as the kind of Christianity Jesus preached. You all have a different religion with a different god, a different Jesus, etc. In Christianity, we follow the teachings of Jesus. I think you actually agree with that, but where we lose you is by what Jesus taught practicing Christians. Jesus only ever taught practicing Christians that their God is the Father, to worship the Father, pray to the Father, etc. It's very divisive for you to come along and claim to be a Christian and contradict everything Jesus said regarding Christianity, preaching a different gospel, etc.
 
Jesus did not preach the doctrine of the Trinity, as the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible and the concept was formulated by theologians centuries later. However, some Christians argue that His teachings, such as His oneness with the Father and His promise to send the Holy Spirit, lay the foundation for the Trinity. The debate often comes down to interpreting certain biblical passages.
 
Jesus did not preach the doctrine of the Trinity, as the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible and the concept was formulated by theologians centuries later. However, some Christians argue that His teachings, such as His oneness with the Father and His promise to send the Holy Spirit, lay the foundation for the Trinity. The debate often comes down to interpreting certain biblical passages.
The entire field of theology comes down to interpreting "certain biblical passages".
 
The entire field of theology comes down to interpreting "certain biblical passages".
Pretty much, but theology isn't solely based on interpretation, interpretation is a core component of theology, as it involves studying and understanding scripture to formulate doctrine. Theology interprets the Bible to understand what it teaches about God, humanity, and salvation, with the goal of creating coherent doctrine and applying its teachings to life. This process requires a careful and faithful approach to scripture, acknowledging the divine author and the historical context.

Theological interpretation of Scripture is both a long-standing Christian interpretive practice, that comes out of the hermeneutics of the biblical writers themselves, and a contemporary scholarly movement that champions this approach to interpretation against Enlightenment notions of presuppositionless or methodologically agnostic exegesis.
 
I understand what you believe . . . I don't believe it.

Isn't the beginning referring to Genesis 1 when God SPOKE, when God SAID, when God used His WORDS to CREATE???
Oh really? Well, what "beginning" is it referring to?
And you have no idea that when the Word was with God , both being Spirit beings.
So, it seems the word - being God's word ---- it was with God in the beginning. Nope don't see it as referring to Spirit beings.
Well since God is not a spirit... what do you suppose His blood type is.
I don't see the word - being God's word which was with him in the beginning . . . as referring to two Spirit beings.
I didn't say that God is not a spirit. I don't think he has a blood type being a spirit.
I believe the word became flesh, became a human being and dwelt among us as the only Son from the Father, i.e. Jesus, the SON OF GOD, the Lord's Messiah.
As the incarnate son?
As the Son of God, the Lord's Messiah . . .not God incarnate.
And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore (for this reason) the child to be born will be called holy----the SON OF GOD. (Luke 1:35)

Jesus is the salvation of God. . . . Jesus offers salvation to all humanity through faith in him.
Then what was he doing here?
Preaching and teaching the Kingdom of God.
And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore (for this reason) the child to be born will be called holy----the SON OF GOD. (Luke 1:35)
VIRGIN Mary and who else? He was not a test tube baby or artificially inseminated.
the Holy Spirit, the power of the Most High caused the conception. There was no semen involved.
And explain why Phil 2:7 HAD TO HAPPEN.
King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Why Phil. 2:7 HAD TO HAPPEN???? What do you mean?

Paul was teaching humility to the Corinthian church using Jesus as a model which we are to imitate when it comes to humility. "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:" . . . Jesus is the model which we are to imitate when it comes to humility.
Whatever you believe you have not done a deep study....
I'm doing okay in my studies being in align with scripture ---- keeping God as a single entity; distinguishing the Father as the only true God and Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, his anointed.

BTW, I inserted my quotes, not to be repetitious but so others could easily follow the conversation.
 
This is exactly why trinitarianism is not the same religion as the kind of Christianity Jesus preached. You all have a different religion with a different god, a different Jesus, etc. In Christianity, we follow the teachings of Jesus. I think you actually agree with that, but where we lose you is by what Jesus taught practicing Christians. Jesus only ever taught practicing Christians that their God is the Father, to worship the Father, pray to the Father, etc. It's very divisive for you to come along and claim to be a Christian and contradict everything Jesus said regarding Christianity, preaching a different gospel, etc.
Our Jesus is the Jesus of the Bible
 
Nor did I. So who made such accusations and to whom? :cool:
Do you believe that John 1 says that the Word is God? Do you believe that John 1 says that the Word became Jesus? Do you not think that means Jesus is God?
I believe that John 1:18 says the word became flesh, i.e. a human being which yes was Jesus.
No, I do not believe it means Jesus was God.
 
I can't place my trust nor believe in something that is illogical, nonsensical and irrational.

Yep, Jesus repeatedly told them who he was . . . In your law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. I am the one who bears witness about myself and the Father who sent me bears witness about me (two people - the Father, the only true God and Jesus, whom you say is God = 2 gods) . . .
Where is your Father? You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me you would know my Father also. (Saying God was his Father makes Jesus God's Son aka the Son of God aka the Messiah ) I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he, (the Son of God, the Messiah) you will die in your sins.

John 14:1 . . 'Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.' (ALSO ALSO ALSO in addition to . . . you have 2 gods);
John 14:6b .... 'No one comes to the Father except through me' (again distinguishes himself from God the Father) . . .
John 14:7 'If you had KNOWN me, you would have KNOWN my Father also. From now on you KNOW him and have seen him . . . Then what Jesus said to Philip . . . 'Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.' and the "seeing" is all in the sense of KNOWING - which is what Jesus said in John 14:7a. Didn't Jesus come to reveal the Father, to declare and make known the Father (John 1:18)? All this means is Jesus so fully and clearly demonstrated God's character that when one looked at Jesus, it was as if you were looking at the Father.

As for your interpretations of John 1:18 ---- manuscript evidence is divided. IOW, verdict is still out as to the reading of John 1:18.

I don't think we should not collapse God the Father and His Messiah into one being.
Then you cannot believe in God since God is miraculous and miracles are not logical nor provable by science . They are unexplainable.

hope this helps !!!
 
Oh really? Well, what "beginning" is it referring to?
The Word was in existence long before the Spirit was hovering over the waters.

You cannot limit the deity to Genesis or about 6000 plus years ago....
I don't see the word - being God's word which was with him in the beginning . . . as referring to two Spirit beings.
I didn't say that God is not a spirit. I don't think he has a blood type being a spirit.


As the Son of God, the Lord's Messiah . . .not God incarnate.

Print this and add it to your Studies

Incarnation
This article is part of the Key Bible Verses series.

God Became Man​

Read about God’s condescension and wonder anew at his redemptive plan for humanity with these verses and commentary from the ESV Study Bible, and let your heart be awed by God’s perfect plan to redeem his people.

John 1:14

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
“The Word” continues the opening words of the prologue in John1:1. “Became flesh” does not mean the Word ceased being God; rather, the Word, who was God, also took on humanity (cf. Phil. 2:6–7). This is the most amazing event in all of history: the eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, infinitely holy Son of God took on a human nature and lived among humanity as one who was both God and man at the same time, in one person. “Dwelt among us” means more literally “pitched his tent” (Gk. skēnoō), an allusion to God’s dwelling among the Israelites in the tabernacle (cf. Ex. 25:8–9; 33:7). In the past, God had manifested his presence to his people in the tabernacle and the temple. Now God takes up residence among his people in the incarnate Word, Jesus Christ (cf. John 1:17). Thus, the coming of Christ fulfills the Old Testament symbolism for God’s dwelling with man in the tabernacle and the temple. Later, through the Holy Spirit, Christ will make into a temple both the church (1 Cor. 3:16) and a Christian’s body (1 Cor. 6:19). The references to God’s glory refer back to Old Testament passages narrating the manifestation of the presence and glory of God in theophanies (appearances of God), the tabernacle, or the temple (e.g., Ex. 33:22; Num. 14:10; Deut. 5:22). the only Son from the Father. Jesus is the “Son of God,” not in the sense of being created or born (see John 1:3), but in the sense of being a Son who is exactly like his Father in all attributes, and in the sense of having a Father-Son relationship with God the Father. The Greek word underlying “only,” monogenēs, means “one of a kind, unique,” as in the case of Isaac, who is called Abraham’s “one-of-a-kind” son in Hebrews 11:17 (in contrast to Ishmael; cf. Gen. 22:2, 12, 16). Thus “only” is a better translation than “only begotten” (made familiar through its use in the KJV).

Hebrews 1:1–2

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
“Long ago” contrasts here with “these last days” in Hebrews 1:2. Two similar Greek words (polymerōs and polytropōs) emphasize the many times and many ways in which God has spoken. This speaking was through prophets, which in Jewish thought included the authors of both the prophetic and the historical books of the Old Testament (even Moses and David; cf. Deut. 18:15; Acts 1:16; 3:22; 4:25; 7:37; 26:22). “Our fathers” are the Old Testament patriarchs (cf. Heb. 3:9; 8:9), whom the author considers his audience’s spiritual forebears.

Four points of contrast occur between Hebrews 1:1 and Hebrews 1:2: time of revelation (“long ago” vs. these last days); agent of revelation (“prophets” vs. Son); recipients of revelation (“fathers” vs. us); and, implicitly, the unity of the final revelation in the Son (cf. the “many times and in many ways” in Heb. 1:1, implying, by contrast, that this last revelation came at one time, in one way, in and through God’s Son). Since God has spoken finally and fully in the Son, and since the New Testament fully reports and interprets this supreme revelation once the New Testament is written, the canon of Scripture is complete. No new books are needed to explain what God has done through his Son. Now believers await his second coming (Heb. 9:28) and the city to come (Heb. 13:14). Jesus is heir of all things (i.e., what he “inherits” from his Father is all creation) by virtue of his dignity as Son (Heb. 1:4). The preexistence, authority, power, and full deity of the Son are evident in his role in creating the world; cf. John 1:3, 10; Col. 1:16.



Isaiah 9:6

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
A gift of divine grace to sinners. This is the invincible figure striding across the world stage, taking gracious command, according to Isaiah 9:4–5 (cf. Ps. 2:7–9; Luke 1:32). Isaiah presents the events as if it were the time of the child’s arrival, with an expectation of what he will achieve (Isa. 9:7).

Wonderful Counselor. A “counselor” is one who is able to make wise plans (Isa. 11:2). He is a ruler whose wisdom is beyond merely human capabilities, unlike intelligent but foolish Ahaz (cf. Isa. 28:29).

Mighty God. A title of the Lord himself (Isa. 10:20–21; Deut. 10:17; Neh. 9:32; Jer. 32:18).

Everlasting Father. A “father” here is a benevolent protector (cf. Isa. 22:21; Job 29:16), which is the task of the ideal king and is also the way God himself cares for his people (cf. Isa. 63:16; Isa. 64:8; Ps. 103:13). (That is, this is not using the Trinitarian title “Father” for the Messiah; rather, it is portraying him as a king.)

Prince of Peace. He is the ruler whose reign will bring about peace because the nations will rely on his just decisions in their disputes (cf. Isa. 2:4; 11:6–9; 42:4; 49:7; 52:15). This kind of king contrasts with even the best of the Davidic line that Judah has experienced so far, because these titles show that this king will be divine. Thus this cannot refer to, say, Hezekiah (whose father Ahaz was king at the time), who for all his piety was nevertheless flawed (cf. Isa. 39:5–8) and only human.

Galatians 4:4–5

But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
God sent his Son at the right moment in human history, when God’s providential oversight of the events of the world had directed and prepared peoples and nations for the incarnation and ministry of Christ, and for the proclamation of the gospel.

Paul’s adoption imagery probably picks up the Old Testament concept of God calling Israel his “son” and combines this with the Roman notion of adopting a son (usually already a grown man) in order to designate him as the heir to all the family wealth.

1 Timothy 1:15–17

The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
Calling attention to certain sayings as trustworthy is a particular distinctive of the Pastoral Epistles (cf. 1 Tim.3:1; 4:9; 2 Tim. 2:11; Titus 3:8). With “Christ Jesus came . . . to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost (cf. Luke 19:10),” Paul cannot mean that he now sins more than anyone in the world, for he elsewhere says that he has lived before God with a clear conscience (Acts 23:1; Acts 24:16), and he asks other believers to follow his example. Apparently he means that his previous persecution of the church (1 Tim. 1:13; cf. 1 Cor. 15:9–10) made him the foremost sinner, for it did the most to hinder others from coming to faith (cf. 1 Thess. 2:15–16). Yet it also allowed God to save Paul as an “example” of grace (1 Tim. 1:16). Another interpretation is that, in light of the Holy Spirit’s powerful conviction in his heart, and his nearness to God, Paul could not imagine anyone being a “worse” sinner than he. Godly people with some self-knowledge are prone to think of themselves in this way.

Titus 3:4–7

But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Paul explains how his exhortations to godly living (Titus 3:1–2) are based on the gospel. This gospel statement is presented in a traditional “conversion” formula—“formerly . . . but now”—highlighting the ethical and practical change effected by grace.

Goodness and loving kindness stand in stark contrast to the description of lost humanity in Titus 3:3. The difference is due to the appearance of God our Savior.

The transformation described in Titus 3:3–7 (“formerly . . . but now”) is not based on human effort. “We . . . were once enslaved” (Titus 3:3) but he saved us. God must act before salvation occurs. Salvation comes not because of works but by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. Some have understood this as saying that baptism (“the washing”) causes salvation. However, in this context human deeds are clearly downplayed (“not because of works”) and the emphasis is on divine action and initiative (“he saved us”). The “washing” described here is the spiritual cleansing, which is outwardly symbolized in baptism.

Zechariah 9:9

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
righteous and having salvation is he,
humble and mounted on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
This campaign over Israel’s enemies would culminate in the triumphal entry of its king to Jerusalem. The people are summoned to acclaim their coming king. He is described as “righteous,” like the ideal ruler of Psalm 72. He will ensure God’s blessing on his people, thereby bringing about their “salvation.” He is also humble (cf. Deut. 17:18–20), hinting that this king is still obedient to the King of kings, and he comes riding on a donkey, the mount of one who comes to bring peace, not on the standard military mount, a horse. This prophecy famously finds its counterpart in Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem, when Jesus clearly signals his messianic identity. This verse is directly quoted at Matthew 21:5 and John 12:15, but both evangelists abbreviate the quotation. As Jesus enters Jerusalem, this work is still to be accomplished.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Here is the most famous summary of the gospel in the entire Bible. “For” connects to John 3:15 and explains what happened to make it possible that someone can “have eternal life” (John 3:15), that is, through believing in Christ. God so loved the world was an astounding statement in that context because the Old Testament and other Jewish writings had spoken only of God’s love for his people Israel. God’s love for “the world” made it possible for “whoever” (John 3:15) believes in Christ, not Jews alone, to have eternal life. God’s love for the world was not mere sentiment but led to a specific action: he gave his only Son, which John elsewhere explains as sending him to earth as a man (John 3:17) to suffer and die and thereby to bear the penalty for sins.

The purpose of giving his Son was to make God’s great gift of eternal life available to anyone—to whoever believes in him, that is, whoever personally trusts in him. “Not perish” means not perish in eternal judgment, in contrast to having eternal life, the life of abundant joy and immeasurable blessing in the presence of God forever. Those who “believe in” Christ have that “eternal life” and already experience its blessings in this present time, not yet fully, but in some significant measure.

Philippians 2:8

And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
It is remarkable enough that God the Son would take on human form (Gk. schēma, “outward appearance, form, shape,” a different term from morphē, used in Phil. 2:6–7 for “form of God” and “form of a servant”) and thus enter into all the vicissitudes of a broken world. But Jesus went much farther, becoming obedient (cf. Rom. 5:19) to the point of death, even death on a cross. Crucifixion was not simply a convenient way of executing prisoners. It was the ultimate indignity, a public statement by Rome that the crucified one was beyond contempt. The excruciating physical pain was magnified by the degradation and humiliation. No other form of death, no matter how prolonged or physically agonizing, could match crucifixion as an absolute destruction of the person (see note on Matt. 27:35). It was the ultimate counterpoint to the divine majesty of the preexistent Christ, and thus was the ultimate expression of Christ’s obedience to the Father.

Isaiah 7:14

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Although some claim that the word translated virgin (Hb. ‘almah) refers generally to a “young woman,” it actually refers specifically to a “maiden”—that is, to a young woman who is unmarried and sexually chaste, and thus has virginity as one of her characteristics (see Gen. 24:16, 43; Ex. 2:8, “girl”). Thus when the Septuagint translators, 200 years before the birth of Christ, rendered ‘almah here with Greek parthenos (a specific term for “virgin”) they rightly perceived the meaning of the Hebrew term; and when Matthew applied this prophecy to the virgin birth of Christ (see Matt. 1:23), it was in accord with this well-established understanding of parthenos (“virgin”) as used in the Septuagint and in other Greek writers.

Isaiah prophesies further that it is “the virgin” who shall call his name Immanuel. Bestowing a child’s name often falls to the mother in the OT (e.g., the naming of the patriarchs in Gen. 29:31–30:24; but cf. Gen. 35:18; also Judg. 13:24; 1 Sam. 1:20), although other women (cf. Ruth 4:17) or even the father (Gen. 16:15; Judg. 8:31) could be involved in the naming. The name itself, Immanuel, “God is with us,” is the message of the sign. Such is its importance that Matthew translates it for his readers (Matt. 1:23). Immanuel is used as a form of address in Isa. 8:8 (“your land, O Immanuel”), and as a sentence in Isa. 8:10 (“for God is with us”). To say that God is “with” someone or a people means that God is guiding and helping them to fulfill their calling (Gen. 21:22; Ex. 3:12; Deut. 2:7; Josh. 1:5; Ps. 46:7, 11; Isa. 41:10). As such, it would provide a pointed message either to the fearful Ahaz or to the failing royal house.

Christian interpretation follows Matthew in applying this verse to the birth of Jesus. However, some aspects of Isaiah’s prophecy also relate to the significance of the sign for Isaiah’s own day. This being the case, a number of questions are raised: To whose family does the virgin belong, and how should her marital status be understood? What is the precise significance of the child’s name? Is it a personal name, or should it be understood as a title? Most importantly, does the fulfillment of this sign belong to Isaiah’s own day, or does it rather point (even in his day) to a much more distant and complete fulfillment? Christians have typically answered these questions in one of two ways.

Some hold that the sign has a single fulfillment—that is, the sign points originally and solely to the birth of Jesus as the “ultimate” Messiah. Those who hold this view emphasize the understanding of ‘almah only as “virgin,” thus precluding any “near term” fulfillment before the birth of Jesus; this view understands “Immanuel” as a title (as in Isa. 8:8) rather than a personal name. It is also noted that the variation in reference to a “son” (Hb. ben) in Isa. 7:14, as compared to a “boy” (Hb. na‘ar) in Isa. 7:16, further distinguishes between the child of miraculous birth and a more generic reference to a male child unrelated to the divine promise. This has the effect of separating the reference to Isaiah’s day (Isa. 7:16–17) from the fulfillment of the announced miraculous son to be born at a future time (v. 14). According to this interpretation, then, the prediction of the virgin birth in Isa. 7:14 is a straightforward prediction of an event cast well into the future, and Matthew’s application of this prophecy to Jesus (Matt. 1:20–23) provides the divinely inspired testimony to there being a single fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy. By this interpretation, the sign is directed to the “house of David,” to affirm God’s intention of preserving David’s dynasty (in keeping with the promises of 2 Sam. 7:12–16), in order to bring Israel’s mission to its glorious fulfillment (Isa. 9:6–7; 11:1–10). God will use any means to do this, even miraculous ones: this is a rebuke to the faithless and secular outlook of Ahaz.

Those who see in this sign a more immediate application to Ahaz and his times usually argue that the prophecy has a double fulfillment—that is, both an immediate fulfillment in Isaiah’s day and a long-term fulfillment in the birth of the Messiah. Those who hold this view argue that it is natural for the name “Immanuel” to be understood in terms of double fulfillment, since two other “sons” perform similar symbolic roles in the context (cf. Isa. 7:3; 8:3–4). They argue further that the prophet’s own interpretation of the sign in Isa. 7:16–17 applies it directly to Ahaz’s own day. It should be observed that this understanding of the text in no way diminishes Matthew’s affirmation of the supernatural conception and virgin birth of Jesus (cf. also Luke 1:34–35). Even if the prophecy does include an immediate application to the time of Ahaz, however, the prophecy cannot have been fulfilled completely by the birth of someone like Maher-shalal-hash-baz (Isa. 8:1, 3) or by Hezekiah, as some have suggested, since Isa.9:6 prophesies the birth of a son whose name will be “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace”—a statement that could apply only to the Davidic Messiah.

On this understanding, then, the prophecy of Isa. 7:14 foretells the birth of Immanuel, which was fulfilled partially in Isaiah’s time but fully and finally in the person of Jesus Christ. Faithful interpreters can be found on either side of this debate. One should not, therefore, lose sight of those truths on which all agree: the prophet speaks authoritatively for God; Ahaz and his house stand under judgment; the prophetic sign directly meets the failures of Ahaz’s day; fulfillment of the prophecy comes about through direct divine intervention in human history; and the sign finds its final fulfillment in the virgin birth of Jesus the Messiah, who is literally “God with us.”


Preaching and teaching the Kingdom of God.


the Holy Spirit, the power of the Most High caused the conception. There was no semen involved.

Why Phil. 2:7 HAD TO HAPPEN???? What do you mean?

Paul was teaching humility to the Corinthian church using Jesus as a model which we are to imitate when it comes to humility. "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:" . . . Jesus is the model which we are to imitate when it comes to humility.

I'm doing okay in my studies being in align with scripture ---- keeping God as a single entity; distinguishing the Father as the only true God and Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, his anointed.

BTW, I inserted my quotes, not to be repetitious but so others could easily follow the conversation.
 
Nor did I. So who made such accusations and to whom? :cool:

I believe that John 1:18 says the word became flesh, i.e. a human being which yes was Jesus.
No, I do not believe it means Jesus was God.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

You pick and chose to support your beliefs.

And likely translations too
 
The Word was in existence long before the Spirit was hovering over the waters.

You cannot limit the deity to Genesis or about 6000 plus years ago....
I thought we were staying within the parameter of scripture - how could I even think that!!!
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Incarnation
This article is part of the Key Bible Verses series.

God Became Man​

Read about God’s condescension and wonder anew at his redemptive plan for humanity with these verses and commentary from the ESV Study Bible, and let your heart be awed by God’s perfect plan to redeem his people.

John 1:14


“The Word” continues the opening words of the prologue in John1:1. “Became flesh” does not mean the Word ceased being God; rather, the Word, who was God, also took on humanity (cf. Phil. 2:6–7). This is the most amazing event in all of history: the eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, infinitely holy Son of God took on a human nature and lived among humanity as one who was both God and man at the same time, in one person. “Dwelt among us” means more literally “pitched his tent” (Gk. skēnoō), an allusion to God’s dwelling among the Israelites in the tabernacle (cf. Ex. 25:8–9; 33:7). In the past, God had manifested his presence to his people in the tabernacle and the temple. Now God takes up residence among his people in the incarnate Word, Jesus Christ (cf. John 1:17). Thus, the coming of Christ fulfills the Old Testament symbolism for God’s dwelling with man in the tabernacle and the temple. Later, through the Holy Spirit, Christ will make into a temple both the church (1 Cor. 3:16) and a Christian’s body (1 Cor. 6:19). The references to God’s glory refer back to Old Testament passages narrating the manifestation of the presence and glory of God in theophanies (appearances of God), the tabernacle, or the temple (e.g., Ex. 33:22; Num. 14:10; Deut. 5:22). the only Son from the Father. Jesus is the “Son of God,” not in the sense of being created or born (see John 1:3), but in the sense of being a Son who is exactly like his Father in all attributes, and in the sense of having a Father-Son relationship with God the Father. The Greek word underlying “only,” monogenēs, means “one of a kind, unique,” as in the case of Isaac, who is called Abraham’s “one-of-a-kind” son in Hebrews 11:17 (in contrast to Ishmael; cf. Gen. 22:2, 12, 16). Thus “only” is a better translation than “only begotten” (made familiar through its use in the KJV).

Hebrews 1:1–2


“Long ago” contrasts here with “these last days” in Hebrews 1:2. Two similar Greek words (polymerōs and polytropōs) emphasize the many times and many ways in which God has spoken. This speaking was through prophets, which in Jewish thought included the authors of both the prophetic and the historical books of the Old Testament (even Moses and David; cf. Deut. 18:15; Acts 1:16; 3:22; 4:25; 7:37; 26:22). “Our fathers” are the Old Testament patriarchs (cf. Heb. 3:9; 8:9), whom the author considers his audience’s spiritual forebears.

Four points of contrast occur between Hebrews 1:1 and Hebrews 1:2: time of revelation (“long ago” vs. these last days); agent of revelation (“prophets” vs. Son); recipients of revelation (“fathers” vs. us); and, implicitly, the unity of the final revelation in the Son (cf. the “many times and in many ways” in Heb. 1:1, implying, by contrast, that this last revelation came at one time, in one way, in and through God’s Son). Since God has spoken finally and fully in the Son, and since the New Testament fully reports and interprets this supreme revelation once the New Testament is written, the canon of Scripture is complete. No new books are needed to explain what God has done through his Son. Now believers await his second coming (Heb. 9:28) and the city to come (Heb. 13:14). Jesus is heir of all things (i.e., what he “inherits” from his Father is all creation) by virtue of his dignity as Son (Heb. 1:4). The preexistence, authority, power, and full deity of the Son are evident in his role in creating the world; cf. John 1:3, 10; Col. 1:16.



Isaiah 9:6


A gift of divine grace to sinners. This is the invincible figure striding across the world stage, taking gracious command, according to Isaiah 9:4–5 (cf. Ps. 2:7–9; Luke 1:32). Isaiah presents the events as if it were the time of the child’s arrival, with an expectation of what he will achieve (Isa. 9:7).

Wonderful Counselor. A “counselor” is one who is able to make wise plans (Isa. 11:2). He is a ruler whose wisdom is beyond merely human capabilities, unlike intelligent but foolish Ahaz (cf. Isa. 28:29).

Mighty God. A title of the Lord himself (Isa. 10:20–21; Deut. 10:17; Neh. 9:32; Jer. 32:18).

Everlasting Father. A “father” here is a benevolent protector (cf. Isa. 22:21; Job 29:16), which is the task of the ideal king and is also the way God himself cares for his people (cf. Isa. 63:16; Isa. 64:8; Ps. 103:13). (That is, this is not using the Trinitarian title “Father” for the Messiah; rather, it is portraying him as a king.)

Prince of Peace. He is the ruler whose reign will bring about peace because the nations will rely on his just decisions in their disputes (cf. Isa. 2:4; 11:6–9; 42:4; 49:7; 52:15). This kind of king contrasts with even the best of the Davidic line that Judah has experienced so far, because these titles show that this king will be divine. Thus this cannot refer to, say, Hezekiah (whose father Ahaz was king at the time), who for all his piety was nevertheless flawed (cf. Isa. 39:5–8) and only human.

Galatians 4:4–5
God sent his Son at the right moment in human history, when God’s providential oversight of the events of the world had directed and prepared peoples and nations for the incarnation and ministry of Christ, and for the proclamation of the gospel.

Paul’s adoption imagery probably picks up the Old Testament concept of God calling Israel his “son” and combines this with the Roman notion of adopting a son (usually already a grown man) in order to designate him as the heir to all the family wealth.

1 Timothy 1:15–17
Calling attention to certain sayings as trustworthy is a particular distinctive of the Pastoral Epistles (cf. 1 Tim.3:1; 4:9; 2 Tim. 2:11; Titus 3:8). With “Christ Jesus came . . . to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost (cf. Luke 19:10),” Paul cannot mean that he now sins more than anyone in the world, for he elsewhere says that he has lived before God with a clear conscience (Acts 23:1; Acts 24:16), and he asks other believers to follow his example. Apparently he means that his previous persecution of the church (1 Tim. 1:13; cf. 1 Cor. 15:9–10) made him the foremost sinner, for it did the most to hinder others from coming to faith (cf. 1 Thess. 2:15–16). Yet it also allowed God to save Paul as an “example” of grace (1 Tim. 1:16). Another interpretation is that, in light of the Holy Spirit’s powerful conviction in his heart, and his nearness to God, Paul could not imagine anyone being a “worse” sinner than he. Godly people with some self-knowledge are prone to think of themselves in this way.

Titus 3:4–7
Paul explains how his exhortations to godly living (Titus 3:1–2) are based on the gospel. This gospel statement is presented in a traditional “conversion” formula—“formerly . . . but now”—highlighting the ethical and practical change effected by grace.

Goodness and loving kindness stand in stark contrast to the description of lost humanity in Titus 3:3. The difference is due to the appearance of God our Savior.

The transformation described in Titus 3:3–7 (“formerly . . . but now”) is not based on human effort. “We . . . were once enslaved” (Titus 3:3) but he saved us. God must act before salvation occurs. Salvation comes not because of works but by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. Some have understood this as saying that baptism (“the washing”) causes salvation. However, in this context human deeds are clearly downplayed (“not because of works”) and the emphasis is on divine action and initiative (“he saved us”). The “washing” described here is the spiritual cleansing, which is outwardly symbolized in baptism.

Zechariah 9:9

This campaign over Israel’s enemies would culminate in the triumphal entry of its king to Jerusalem. The people are summoned to acclaim their coming king. He is described as “righteous,” like the ideal ruler of Psalm 72. He will ensure God’s blessing on his people, thereby bringing about their “salvation.” He is also humble (cf. Deut. 17:18–20), hinting that this king is still obedient to the King of kings, and he comes riding on a donkey, the mount of one who comes to bring peace, not on the standard military mount, a horse. This prophecy famously finds its counterpart in Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem, when Jesus clearly signals his messianic identity. This verse is directly quoted at Matthew 21:5 and John 12:15, but both evangelists abbreviate the quotation. As Jesus enters Jerusalem, this work is still to be accomplished.
John 3:16
Here is the most famous summary of the gospel in the entire Bible. “For” connects to John 3:15 and explains what happened to make it possible that someone can “have eternal life” (John 3:15), that is, through believing in Christ. God so loved the world was an astounding statement in that context because the Old Testament and other Jewish writings had spoken only of God’s love for his people Israel. God’s love for “the world” made it possible for “whoever” (John 3:15) believes in Christ, not Jews alone, to have eternal life. God’s love for the world was not mere sentiment but led to a specific action: he gave his only Son, which John elsewhere explains as sending him to earth as a man (John 3:17) to suffer and die and thereby to bear the penalty for sins.

The purpose of giving his Son was to make God’s great gift of eternal life available to anyone—to whoever believes in him, that is, whoever personally trusts in him. “Not perish” means not perish in eternal judgment, in contrast to having eternal life, the life of abundant joy and immeasurable blessing in the presence of God forever. Those who “believe in” Christ have that “eternal life” and already experience its blessings in this present time, not yet fully, but in some significant measure.

Philippians 2:8
It is remarkable enough that God the Son would take on human form (Gk. schēma, “outward appearance, form, shape,” a different term from morphē, used in Phil. 2:6–7 for “form of God” and “form of a servant”) and thus enter into all the vicissitudes of a broken world. But Jesus went much farther, becoming obedient (cf. Rom. 5:19) to the point of death, even death on a cross. Crucifixion was not simply a convenient way of executing prisoners. It was the ultimate indignity, a public statement by Rome that the crucified one was beyond contempt. The excruciating physical pain was magnified by the degradation and humiliation. No other form of death, no matter how prolonged or physically agonizing, could match crucifixion as an absolute destruction of the person (see note on Matt. 27:35). It was the ultimate counterpoint to the divine majesty of the preexistent Christ, and thus was the ultimate expression of Christ’s obedience to the Father.

Isaiah 7:14
Although some claim that the word translated virgin (Hb. ‘almah) refers generally to a “young woman,” it actually refers specifically to a “maiden”—that is, to a young woman who is unmarried and sexually chaste, and thus has virginity as one of her characteristics (see Gen. 24:16, 43; Ex. 2:8, “girl”). Thus when the Septuagint translators, 200 years before the birth of Christ, rendered ‘almah here with Greek parthenos (a specific term for “virgin”) they rightly perceived the meaning of the Hebrew term; and when Matthew applied this prophecy to the virgin birth of Christ (see Matt. 1:23), it was in accord with this well-established understanding of parthenos (“virgin”) as used in the Septuagint and in other Greek writers.

Isaiah prophesies further that it is “the virgin” who shall call his name Immanuel. Bestowing a child’s name often falls to the mother in the OT (e.g., the naming of the patriarchs in Gen. 29:31–30:24; but cf. Gen. 35:18; also Judg. 13:24; 1 Sam. 1:20), although other women (cf. Ruth 4:17) or even the father (Gen. 16:15; Judg. 8:31) could be involved in the naming. The name itself, Immanuel, “God is with us,” is the message of the sign. Such is its importance that Matthew translates it for his readers (Matt. 1:23). Immanuel is used as a form of address in Isa. 8:8 (“your land, O Immanuel”), and as a sentence in Isa. 8:10 (“for God is with us”). To say that God is “with” someone or a people means that God is guiding and helping them to fulfill their calling (Gen. 21:22; Ex. 3:12; Deut. 2:7; Josh. 1:5; Ps. 46:7, 11; Isa. 41:10). As such, it would provide a pointed message either to the fearful Ahaz or to the failing royal house.

Christian interpretation follows Matthew in applying this verse to the birth of Jesus. However, some aspects of Isaiah’s prophecy also relate to the significance of the sign for Isaiah’s own day. This being the case, a number of questions are raised: To whose family does the virgin belong, and how should her marital status be understood? What is the precise significance of the child’s name? Is it a personal name, or should it be understood as a title? Most importantly, does the fulfillment of this sign belong to Isaiah’s own day, or does it rather point (even in his day) to a much more distant and complete fulfillment? Christians have typically answered these questions in one of two ways.

Some hold that the sign has a single fulfillment—that is, the sign points originally and solely to the birth of Jesus as the “ultimate” Messiah. Those who hold this view emphasize the understanding of ‘almah only as “virgin,” thus precluding any “near term” fulfillment before the birth of Jesus; this view understands “Immanuel” as a title (as in Isa. 8:8) rather than a personal name. It is also noted that the variation in reference to a “son” (Hb. ben) in Isa. 7:14, as compared to a “boy” (Hb. na‘ar) in Isa. 7:16, further distinguishes between the child of miraculous birth and a more generic reference to a male child unrelated to the divine promise. This has the effect of separating the reference to Isaiah’s day (Isa. 7:16–17) from the fulfillment of the announced miraculous son to be born at a future time (v. 14). According to this interpretation, then, the prediction of the virgin birth in Isa. 7:14 is a straightforward prediction of an event cast well into the future, and Matthew’s application of this prophecy to Jesus (Matt. 1:20–23) provides the divinely inspired testimony to there being a single fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy. By this interpretation, the sign is directed to the “house of David,” to affirm God’s intention of preserving David’s dynasty (in keeping with the promises of 2 Sam. 7:12–16), in order to bring Israel’s mission to its glorious fulfillment (Isa. 9:6–7; 11:1–10). God will use any means to do this, even miraculous ones: this is a rebuke to the faithless and secular outlook of Ahaz.

Those who see in this sign a more immediate application to Ahaz and his times usually argue that the prophecy has a double fulfillment—that is, both an immediate fulfillment in Isaiah’s day and a long-term fulfillment in the birth of the Messiah. Those who hold this view argue that it is natural for the name “Immanuel” to be understood in terms of double fulfillment, since two other “sons” perform similar symbolic roles in the context (cf. Isa. 7:3; 8:3–4). They argue further that the prophet’s own interpretation of the sign in Isa. 7:16–17 applies it directly to Ahaz’s own day. It should be observed that this understanding of the text in no way diminishes Matthew’s affirmation of the supernatural conception and virgin birth of Jesus (cf. also Luke 1:34–35). Even if the prophecy does include an immediate application to the time of Ahaz, however, the prophecy cannot have been fulfilled completely by the birth of someone like Maher-shalal-hash-baz (Isa. 8:1, 3) or by Hezekiah, as some have suggested, since Isa.9:6 prophesies the birth of a son whose name will be “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace”—a statement that could apply only to the Davidic Messiah.

On this understanding, then, the prophecy of Isa. 7:14 foretells the birth of Immanuel, which was fulfilled partially in Isaiah’s time but fully and finally in the person of Jesus Christ. Faithful interpreters can be found on either side of this debate. One should not, therefore, lose sight of those truths on which all agree: the prophet speaks authoritatively for God; Ahaz and his house stand under judgment; the prophetic sign directly meets the failures of Ahaz’s day; fulfillment of the prophecy comes about through direct divine intervention in human history; and the sign finds its final fulfillment in the virgin birth of Jesus the Messiah, who is literally “God with us.”
Your mistake was assuming that I didn't know what 'incarnation' meant . . . I know full well. I see no need to respond to the above verses as most have been addressed in some form or manner.

I don't believe that God came in the flesh - it's as simple as that.
 
Jesus did not preach the doctrine of the Trinity, as the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible and the concept was formulated by theologians centuries later. However, some Christians argue that His teachings, such as His oneness with the Father and His promise to send the Holy Spirit, lay the foundation for the Trinity. The debate often comes down to interpreting certain biblical passages.
I think if one is seeking to create a new religion using the Bible, there are ways to go about doing it if one were to completely misunderstand what the Bible is talking about in the first place. For example, Melchizedek is an eternal priest and David has an eternal throne, both human, both having the same things Jesus has. Do cultists intentionally make David or Mel out to be God? Do they make Solomon out to be God just because Psalm 45:6,7 says he is? They sure do.

I believe the Bible puts up guardrails that more of less say "Stop, you're going off track with this, turn back and follow what was provided." Regarding who God Almighty is, that would obviously be the Father as John 17:3 and 1 Corinthians 8:6 show.

Where we lose trinitarians in their ability to understand or agree with this is that they have created new vocabulary, philosophy, and language to explain what they believe before projecting it onto the Bible. Long story short, the trinity simply doesn't exist in the Bible if we don't use trinitarians language and opinions, but the Father as the only true God is still there. That's why I am a Unitarian, but it also explains the disconnect they have with people who simply quote what the Bible says without re-interpreting it.
 
Pretty much, but theology isn't solely based on interpretation, interpretation is a core component of theology, as it involves studying and understanding scripture to formulate doctrine. Theology interprets the Bible to understand what it teaches about God, humanity, and salvation, with the goal of creating coherent doctrine and applying its teachings to life. This process requires a careful and faithful approach to scripture, acknowledging the divine author and the historical context.

Theological interpretation of Scripture is both a long-standing Christian interpretive practice, that comes out of the hermeneutics of the biblical writers themselves, and a contemporary scholarly movement that champions this approach to interpretation against Enlightenment notions of presuppositionless or methodologically agnostic exegesis
All that is indeed true; however, anything that is stated beyond the simple quoting of a scripture text is an interpretation. It is a meaning given for the passage under consideration by one or more giving their interpretive understanding. I am not suggesting that such interpretation is not correct and good, only that it is interpretation. It is never scripture which can be found to be in error, it is always the interpretation of someone other than the author of the scripture.

In addition, even the translation(s) as we now possess them, no matter how close they might be to the original, must be considered to be interpretations. And that is not an accident. God, if He had chosen to do so, could have secured the original texts.
 
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