James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

[Red Baker]

@Titus

In Christ .
The Bible teaches all get into Christ by the gospel which is Gods plan of salvation.

Be patience with me and I will work my way through your two post. I'm going to make a few short post, so that each point can be ponder separately, and carefully, and no problem if you respond back in the same manner.

Titus, "in Christ" is important, and the scriptures clearly tell us how one gets into Christ in more than one sense.

First and foremost, God's elect are chosen by God and given to Jesus Christ to be their surety in order to secured their redemption from sin and condemnation. Ephesians 1:4 that we have given to you more than once is a strong proof text scripture supporting what I'm saying concerning being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. God has loved his elect with an everlasting love, since time did not exist before creation, so, there's never been a time when God has not loved his people and viewed them in Christ.

Jeremiah 1:5​

“Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.”

Jeremiah 31:3​

“The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.”

As I have said, that the elect have ever been viewed in Christ and loved with an everlasting love. The only way God can love anyone is for them to be in Christ, by God's election of grace. So, the elect are God's children by the election of grace given to Jesus Christ to redeem.

John 17:4​

“I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.”

Titus, what was that work that God gave to His Son to do?

John 17:2​

“As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.”

While on the earth, Jesus imparted eternal life to as many as God gave to him to saved and secured that life for them, by his perfect life of obedience.

Psalms 89:19​

“Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.”

The work God gave to His Son was to secured the salvation of his people, the elect seed of God. Read all of Psalm 89:1-37. This seed was placed in Christ by God's election of free and pure grace from the foundation of the world.

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

Before the world began God had a plan on how He would save mankind.
This plan of salvation is how the lost get in Christ.
One hears Jesus' gospel and by obeying it one is put in Christ.
Galatians 3:26-27,
- for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ

You said: "Before the world began God had a plan on how He would save mankind."

Titus, it was never God's will to save mankind, just as it was not his will to preserved all of the angelic host from leaving their first estate. He could easily have done so, but did not do so, and by not doing so, we learn many truths, that otherwise we would have never known. Every work of God was done according to His infinite wisdom, so we know all was done perfectly, whether or not we can reconcile it with our very limited knowledge.

You said: "This plan of salvation is how the lost get in Christ."

I read and understand that God's salvation plan is mainly constructed how God can be just and the justifier of sinners.

Romans 3:23-28~"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Titus, how can angels and man come to see a blessed truth that God alone is immutable, and cannot be tempted to sin, and that He alone loves righteousness and hated iniquity? But by created both and allowing them to be tempted and fall into sin, and then reveal is love and compassion to us via the fall of man. Many other such truths are revealed to us through the fall of angels that sinned and man. Enough said for now on this point.

You said: "This plan of salvation is how the lost get in Christ."

I read and understand that God's salvation plan is mainly constructed how God can be just and the justifier of sinners. It is through Jesus Christ "alone", living as a surety for God's elect, and being put to death for their sins and being resurrected to secured full payment for their sins ~ so much more could be added, but enough for now, even though we could stay here for many post, in order to educate God's sheep concerning many precious gospel truths.

You said: "Galatians 3:26-27,- for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Titus, I agree, that water baptism puts one INTO the religion/faith/teachings of Jesus Christ in a practical sense. It is an answer of a good conscience, not to make a good conscience, but the answer thereof. A good conscience is one of those fruit that a person brings forth, just as John the Baptist commanded folks to bring forth fruits worthy in order for that person to qualify to be baptized. Only those that do so, should be baptized. all others should be rejected as not being sincere.

 

[Jim]

@Titus

You said: "Before the world began God had a plan on how He would save mankind."

Titus, it was never God's will to save mankind, just as it was not his will to preserved all of the angelic host from leaving their first estate. He could easily have done so.....

No! No! No! God could not have done so. He created man with the ability to obey or not. Given that, God could not simply "save" the sinner and let him into heaven. Sin MUST be punished.

I will presume that God could have created man (and angels) without the ability to choose to sin. But He did not do that. I can speculate what that is so, but that is not the issue here. So then, since He created man with the ability to choose to sin or not, and all have, God needed a way to save mankind. That was the plan. The fact that not all would accept God's plan does not mean that God would not have liked for all to accept His plan. There is not a verse in scripture that says that God purposely wanted to not save some.

 

[civic]

@Red Baker,
It is absolutely true that God knew from before creation who would receive His Son and be saved. However, that God knew from before creation whom He would save does not mean that He would indeed save them before creation. Nor does it mean that they were singled out by Him to be saved. As I have said many times in our talks back and forth over the years, foreknowledge is not causative. What God knows will happen in the future is certain, but it is certain because He causes it to be certain. God's foreknowledge does not preclude our free will, and it is our free will choices which makes certain the future that God knows. He knows what choices we will make even though He does not cause those choices to be made.

It seems that too many in the Reformed Theology camp are unable to accept the fact that God's foreknowledge and His acts of predestination are two separate and features of God's being. The fact that the names of those obtaining eternal life are "written in God's book of life" before the world began does not mean that they were saved, that they had obtained eternal life, before the world began. They obtained eternal life at some specific time in their lives, and not before.

yes two distinct words and concepts.

 

[Jim]

@Red Baker,
It is absolutely true that God knew from before creation who would receive His Son and be saved. However, that God knew from before creation whom He would save does not mean that He would indeed save them before creation. Nor does it mean that they were singled out by Him to be saved. As I have said many times in our talks back and forth over the years, foreknowledge is not causative. What God knows will happen in the future is certain, but it is NOT certain because He causes it to be certain. God's foreknowledge does not preclude our free will, and it is our free will choices which makes certain the future that God knows. He knows what choices we will make even though He does not cause those choices to be made.

It seems that too many in the Reformed Theology camp are unable to accept the fact that God's foreknowledge and His acts of predestination are two separate and features of God's being. The fact that the names of those obtaining eternal life are "written in God's book of life" before the world began does not mean that they were saved, that they had obtained eternal life, before the world began. They obtained eternal life at some specific time in their lives, and not before.

A correction.

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

Notice the end of verse 2Timothy 1:9, 10
- who hath saved us and called us(by the gospel) with an holy calling not according to our works but according to His own purpose and grace which was given us IN Christ Jesus before the world began
- but is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ who hath abolished death, and hath brought  life and immortality to light through the gospel

Titus, the more you attempt to use scriptures, the more you expose your weakness in understanding them. The gospel does not impart spiritual life, but it does have its purpose, which Paul reveals to us in 2nd Timothy 1:10. Listen carefully to what Paul said:

2 Timothy 1:10​

“But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:”

Your emphasis shows your error in understanding the purpose of the gospel of Christ. Titus, the gospel "cannot" bring life, but it can bring TO LIGHT where there is LIFE! Just as Paul said in Romans 1;16,17.

Romans 1:16​

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”

The gospel of Christ, when preached in truth, it will manifest where there is spiritual life, (also where there is spiritual death as well) since the righteousness of God provided for his elect can only be revealed from a person who has faith, to another person which has the power to have faith through the new man living in those that have been born of God. John 1;12,13.

Baker thinks its unconditional election of hand picked individuals.No.

The word of God does teach unconditional election of grace. See post #227

I teach Bible not the private interpretations of men.

Titus, you may be sincere, that's not for me to judge, but I can assure you that you do not teach the scriptures ~ you teach a religion that started around a little over two hundred years ago. One of the few things I like about your worship is that you folks sing acapella, which I prefer, over a so--called praise band. I do enjoy some limited musical instruments, but in coming together to hear the word of God preach, I prefer none.

 

[Titus]

Titus, "in Christ" is important, and the scriptures clearly tell us how one gets into Christ in more than one sense.
First and foremost, God's elect are chosen by God and given to Jesus Christ to be their surety in order to secured their redemption from sin and condemnation. Ephesians 1:4 that we have given to you more than once is a strong proof text scripture supporting what I'm saying concerning being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. God has loved his elect with an everlasting love, since time did not exist before creation, so, there's never been a time when God has not loved his people and viewed them in Christ.

God loves all creation before the world.
1John 2:2,
- and God is the propitiation for our sins(elect) and not ours only but also for the sins of the whole world(non-elect).

Your understanding of Ephesians 1:3-4 is error. Therefore it does not agree with your conclusions.

2 Timothy 1:10​

“But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:”

Your emphasis shows your error in understanding the purpose of the gospel of Christ. Titus, the gospel "cannot" bring life, but it can bring TO LIGHT where there is LIFE! Just as Paul said in Romans 1;16,17.

You just proved me correct once again.
No light no life no immortality before one hears believes and obeys the gospel.
You teach you are in the light before the gospel.
Your scriptures you referenced proves you only are in the light through the power of the gospel.
You need help with comprehension.

Titus, it was never God's will to save mankind,

John 3:17,
- for God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved

You teach the opposite of the word of God. You scare me.
You're wasting your time. The more you teach the stronger my conviction grows that you are lost.

Be patience with me and I will work my way through your two post

I've been too gracious with you.
I wish to never hear another word of your false teaching.
It angers God and is wearisome to listen to over and over.

Galatians 1:8-9,
- but though we or an angel from heaven Preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you let him be accursed

So, no problem with me changing if I see my self in error, then we must submit to God's word over our own doctrines, that may be hard to let go of.

I found the truth, and it is where I stand today,

You are just as confused as when you began.
Your religion does not come to truth through study!!!!
Its miraculously given directly by the Holy Spirit.
Since you know you can be wrong, shows you don't have faith in what you teach.
You cannot be miraculously guided by the Holy Spirit if you could be mistaken on doctrine.
Where is your common sense?

Also there is not doctrines. There is doctrine, 2 John 3:9-11.

I know I can be wrong because God did not miraculously zap faith into me causing a miraculous understanding of His gospel.
The gospel must be learned through what is written. Christianity is a taught religion.
1John 5:13,
- these things I have  written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God that ye may know that ye have eternal life and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God

Why should I believe you when you dont fully believe what you teach.
Reformed theology doesn't have elect not knowing if they are elect. It is supposed to be a miraculous knowledge that is given. A full assurrity that you know your heart has been miraculously changed.

That's the theology. But here is the reality.
Calvinist really dont even know if they are elect. You cannot know because there is nothing you can do.
That's why all your study is head knowledge. That has nothing to do with the religion you have accepted.
That's why you convince me you dont know the truth because you contradict the very doctrines you are vainly trying to get me to believe in.

There is no assurance in calvinism. The true gospel one can know how to be saved by obeying Jesus' gospel.
In calvinism you literally can do nothing but try and convince yourself you have been saved.
Only on judgment day can you really know you are saved or lost.

In reality it is a religion based on emotion.
If you get a strong enough feeling that the Holy Spirit entered your heart, you just feel so strongly you are saved.

Then by works you prove to yourself you've been transformed.
So without works no evidence of salvation.

This also is a logical contradiction.
You claim no works to be saved but no works and you never were saved.
Therefore the only one going to heaven are those who produce good works.

See even in your religion that denies works to be saved you must produce works or you never were saved.
That logically follows that EVERYONE MUST PRODUCE WORKS TO BE SAVED.
No works no salvation.

Inconsistent, contradictory illogical reasoning all = man made doctrine.

You keep teaching and that contradicts your religion that teaches your teaching plays no part in my election.
ITS UNCONDITIONAL.
Wheres your common sense?

 

[Jim]

The following was taken from Coffman's commentary on Romans

IN CHRIST​

The redemption that is in Christ ...
The expression "in Christ" is, in some ways, the most important in all the Pauline writings, where this expression, or its equivalent, "in whom," "in him," etc., is used no less than 169 times.

What does it mean to be "in Christ"? It means to be in his spiritual body, called the church, the body of which Christ is the head, of which he is declared to be the Savior, and which means having a spiritual relationship to Christ, a relationship of intimate union and identification with him. Redemption is not in faith, or baptism, or in anything else except being "in Christ." Right here is that device contrived by God himself by which a man might truly and legitimately be justified; and it might be looked upon as a divine corporation.

This writer is indebted to John Mackay, former President of Princeton Theological Seminary, for this concept of a divine corporation. He wrote:

Which God designated to give historical fulfillment to the "plan of the mystery." That organ is a community, the community of the "chosen in Christ," of "the destined in love." In the Epistle of the Ephesians, which is supremely interested in the corporate side of Christianity, "The People of God" occupy a central place. In the Old Testament they formed the "Commonwealth of Israel" in the New Testament the Christian Church, "the Body of Christ."

JESUS CHRIST, INCORPORATED

Inherent in the very fact of Christ's having a spiritual body is the concept of its being extra-literal. What kind of body is it? That it is a community of believers on earth is implicit in the fact that the Corinthians had "by one Spirit" all been baptized "into it" (1 Corinthians 12:13). That, in the last analysis, it includes more than the church is plainly set forth in Ephesians where "every family" in heaven and upon earth are a part of it. All the saved of all ages are in it, because only in Christ has salvation ever been possible for anyone. The wonder of this body is that it is truly spoken of as a person, like any other corporation, being, in fact, a fully legal person; hence the propriety of saying that one is "in Christ."

Christ's absolute righteousness cannot be separated from himself and conferred or imputed to others, true righteousness being non-transferable; but it is possible, thanks to the wise provision of God in forming the corporate "in Christ," for all who will to enter that body, becoming one with Christ, fully identifiable with him, and being in fact "in him." All such then share Christ's righteousness. It is truly theirs. This is what Paul means by "redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

The shares of this corporation are the righteousness of Christ. In Christ is a bank of all the righteousness ever accredited to people. All spiritual blessings are categorically said to be in this corporation, "in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3). This means that there are no spiritual blessings anywhere except in Christ.

Who are those who make up Christ's spiritual body, thus being "in Christ"? The New Testament gives the following clues to their identity:

They are those who have been born again. Christ's spiritual body, also called by Christ "the kingdom," cannot be entered except by the new birth (John 3:3-5). They are those who are the "new" creatures. "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature" (2 Corinthians 5:17). And, like every other corporation, Jesus Christ, Incorporated, has a seal. Paul wrote to the Ephesians:

In whom (that is, in Christ), having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13).

Thus, the members of Jesus Christ, Incorporated, are those who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit. They are also the saved, for the author of Acts declared that

The Lord added to them day by day those that were saved, (or as more accurately in the English Revised Version (1885) margin) those that were being saved (Acts 2:47).

The true members of Jesus Christ, Incorporated, are the saved, the sealed with the Holy Spirit, the new born, the new creatures. In a word, they are baptized believers in Christ. The reception of the Holy Spirit of promise, in the first sermon of the gospel age, was made contingent upon the repentance and baptism of those who believed (Acts 2:38), and Paul's mentioning "of promise" in Eph. 1:13, above, shows that he had that in mind. Baptism is an essential element in the new birth, though not the whole of it; and the "newness of life" which belongs to every person "in Christ" follows his being baptized into Christ (Romans 6:4). There can be no marvel, therefore, at the fact of baptism's being mentioned three times in the New Testament as an act of obedience that results in the believer's having a new status, that of being "in Christ." "Baptized into Christ" is found in Rom. 6:3 and Gal. 3:27; and, in 1 Corinthians, it is written: "For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body" (12:13).

From these Holy Scriptures, there comes the certain conclusion, then, that faith is not the sum and all of salvation; it was not even so in the case of Christ whose faith and perfect obedience wrought salvation for all; nor can it be supposed that "faith alone," defined by James as "dead" (James 2:17f), can ever avail anything except the eternal disappointment of them that trust in it.

In that all have sinned, a fact Paul was at great labor to prove, there resides the absolute necessity for every man to die as the penalty of sin, that penalty to be understood not merely as mortal but as eternal death; and God's justice will require that every man ever born on earth pay it, unless exempted through being in Christ. Thus, in the final judgment, only those who are truly "in Christ," members of that entity called the spiritual body, or, as here, Jesus Christ, Incorporated, can truly be exempted, and that not upon the basis of their faith alone, but upon the basis that Christ actually died for them, and that they died "in the person of Christ." That is the thrust of Paul's thought that Christians have been "baptized into his death" (Romans 6:3).

Jesus Christ, Incorporated, is the corporation set up through purchase by the blood of Christ (Acts 20:28), the device God had planned before all time, and the mystery hidden before times eternal, and now made "known through the church" (Ephesians 3:10), and called the "mystery of the gospel" (Ephesians 6:19).

These thoughts are offered in the prayerful hope that people may forsake human theories of salvation, that they might believe and be baptized, as Christ commanded, and give glory to God "in the church" as directed by an apostle (Ephesians 3:21).

Like every figure of speech used to convey eternal truth, this one also results in certain distortions, as, for example, above where Christ is spoken of as being alone entitled to salvation. Of course, he was never lost; but the inheritance of the saints is scripturally noted as that which they shall receive as joint-heirs with Christ. Thus, subject to the limitation of all metaphor, this one is conceived of as a vehicle for vital truth, taught abstractly, throughout the New Testament; and, it is hoped, made a little plainer in this comparison.

Thus, only the righteous, the perfect, the truly faithful and obedient shall be saved; and there will be no basis for any man to boast of having anything such as that, because such is not in man; but it is in Christ, and those in Christ may through absolute identification with Christ truly say that they are perfect, etc. That is what Paul meant when he wrote: "That we may present every man perfect in Christ" (Colossians 1:28).

Thus, it will not be an imputed righteousness, procured by the sinner's faith, but a real, actual righteousness wrought by Christ, that can save such a one as sinful man, and then only if he will die to himself and become utterly one with Christ in Christ. As Paul said of himself:

It is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me; and that life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me (Galatians 2:20).

Before leaving Rom. 3:24, the seeming paradox of how God's grace is free and at the same time all people do not receive it, should be observed. Paul wrote Titus:

For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11,12).

From this, it is plain that God's grace having appeared, and salvation having been brought to all people, refer to the availability of that grace and salvation, and not to their being unconditionally bestowed. From the farmer who reaps down his fields to the fishermen off the Grand Banks, all men receive God's gifts conditionally, and never unconditionally. Thus, it is no surprise that God's grace and salvation came "instructing men," with the necessary deduction that rejection of the instructions was automatically rejection of the grace and salvation. Failure to comply with divinely imposed conditions is forfeiture of all benefits conditionally given.

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

God loves all creation before the world.
1John 2:2,
- and God is the propitiation for our sins(elect) and not ours only but also for the sins of the whole world(non-elect).

Titus, you and your understanding is no different than most all other men in all of the cults in Mystery Babylon. You all are guilty of using with sound bites that seemly support your false teachings. Titus, truly you are as much as part of them, even though you do not think you are, but you are indeed.

1st John 2:1,2​

“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Follow closely please ~ John, Peter, and James, and the rest of the apostles were sent to the Jews mainly for the most part, and Paul, and some of his companions to the Gentiles. This is true of their epistles for the most part, with the exception of the book of the Hebrews whom we do not know who wrote that epistle, even though most believe Paul did, but the best they can do is to assume, without any biblical proof.

Galatians 2:9​

“And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.”

So, when reading such epistles as 1st John, I know to whom it was written to, and I also know how to interpret such scriptures as 1st John 2:2.

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: (Jews) and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (Gentiles)”

World is not all without exception, but all without distinction! God does make a distinction among both Jews and Gentiles regenerating only the children of God's promises.

Titus, being married to your religion, the modern day Church of Christ, will not allow you to be the Lord's free man, but a slave to their teachings. selah.

So before the creation of the universe God had in mind to impart His grace to those IN Christ.
Mr. Baker takes verses literal to fit his theology.
But Gods grace was not given to those in Christ before the universe.
It's called figurative language. The Bible is full of figurative language.

I want to go back and pick up this that you said to me yesterday, and comment on it.

You said: "Mr. Baker takes verses literal to fit his theology."
Titus, what in the world are you thinking? How can we ever understand others speech, if we do not take their words literal? If a man said that he drove his motorcycle to the mall today, then we have no right to assume he walk, ran, or even drove his car, we take him at his word, for if we do not. then it is impossible to truly communicate with each other.

That being said, I agree the bible is a little different than most book, and we read the scriptures at face value and accept them as such and then compare scriptures with scriptures to seek its true meaning, but we have no reason to not receive the scriptures such as 2nd Timothy 1:9 along with Ephesians 1:4 that clearly teach God's elect were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world and grace was given to us then............... through, in, and because of Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

You added to your error: "But Gods grace was not given to those in Christ before the universe."

Well, you are calling Paul a liar, and a false teacher, and have rejected clear teachings from God's word, in essence you are rejecting God's testimony of the truth.

2nd Timothy 1:9​

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”

You might want to repent, and humble yourself to God's witness of the truth. If not, then be assure of this, you will regret not doing so. Prove that you are a child of God, by repenting.

One more than I'll come back and add more.

You just proved me correct once again.
No light no life no immortality before one hears believes and obeys the gospel.
You teach you are in the light before the gospel.
Your scriptures you referenced proves you only are in the light through the power of the gospel.
You need help with comprehension.

You said: "You just proved me correct once again."
Titus, I have yet to prove you right, that's called wishful thinking on your part, or, you are just trying to make others believe that this so, when in truth I have thus far, shown just how deceived you are. Or, you could just be badly deceived not knowing just how blinded you are, others can judge for themselves. Be thankful that Jim is overseeing you to help to bail you out a little, I'll address Mr. Jim later.

You said: "No light no life no immortality before one hears believes and obeys the gospel."
One can have spiritual life before the hearing the gospel, that's a truth revealed in the scriptures. John the Baptist, is a prime example of this truth, How about Abraham? Actually all are born again, quickened to life while they are dead in sins and trespasses! So, truly what effect does the gospel have on such people? It is foolishness to them until they are quicken to life by the Spirit of the Living God. Obedience comes form not our flesh, but form teh new man within a born again, child of God.

Romans 7:18​

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”

Surely the power to obey and do spiritual acts pleasing to God is not in our flesh! And that's all we have before being born of God!

You said: "You teach you are in the light before the gospel."

Never said that, you are not following very well, which is to be expected. I said you are born again apart from the gospel, but the gospel when preach will manifest WHERE there is LIFE, it will bring that life TO LIGHT. The gospel is the source of information for God's children imparting light to them, who were once in darkness...btw, it is imparted slowly over time for the most part. You need to follow better than you are.

You added: "Your scriptures you referenced proves you only are in the light through the power of the gospel."
2nd Timothy 1:10 tells us that the gospel bring to LIGHT life. Listen carefully:

2nd Timothy 1:10​

“But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:”

In closing for now, you said: "You need help with comprehension."

Titus, That's about like the patient telling the doctor you are sick let me see if "I" can help you!

 

[Red Baker]

The following was taken from Coffman's commentary on Romans

Jim can you change the color blue to black it would be better for me to read,

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

John 3:17,
- for God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved

You teach the opposite of the word of God. You scare me.
You're wasting your time. The more you teach the stronger my conviction grows that you are lost.

World has already been explained to you. It is not that difficult to see and understand, if one has eyes to see and ears to understand.

You said: "You teach the opposite of the word of God. You scare me. You're wasting your time. The more you teach the stronger my conviction grows that you are lost."

Titus if you believe that I teach opposite of the scriptures, then you job is to prove it, stop talking and use the scriptures that you say you believe ~ which that's not for me to say, since I cannot see your heart, but I can say, you are badly deceived and I'm laboring to use scriptures to prove this. So far you are behind, and need to get going if you have truth, then prove it, and disprove my position.

Still waiting on Matthew 16 concerning the "rock" on which Christ is building "his" church, a truth that you flat out rejec, which tells me that you are not part of that church, at least you are not showing that you are, since you reject the very truth on which the church is being built by.

I've been too gracious with you.

Really, I do not want to see the other side, but, it does come with what we are doing, so I accept it without any hard feelings toward my opponent.

You are just as confused as when you began.
Your religion does not come to truth through study!!!!
Its miraculously given directly by the Holy Spirit.
Since you know you can be wrong, shows you don't have faith in what you teach.
You cannot be miraculously guided by the Holy Spirit if you could be mistaken on doctrine.
Where is your common sense?

Prove that I'm confused, so far you have proved not one thing, other than you are one confused person. with very little bible knowledge that I can see so far.

You said: Your religion does not come to truth through study!!!! Its miraculously given directly by the Holy Spirit. It comes by both means. At least my faith is not a lifeless Spirit religion.

2 Timothy 2:15​

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

Ephesians 1:17​

“That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,”

You added: "Since you know you can be wrong, shows you don't have faith in what you teach. You cannot be miraculously guided by the Holy Spirit if you could be mistaken on doctrine. Where is your common sense?"

Just because we acknowledge that we are flesh and blood even though born of God, we still have the old man with us, and are subject to error, not only subject to error but have errors even though we might not see them as of it, no man is perfect in what he sees and preaches, it is part of being flesh and blood. This is called spiritual common sense, whish is not too common any more!

Also there is not doctrines. There is doctrine, 2 John 3:9-11.

Really? You sure about that?

Hebrews 6:2​

“Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”

The word baptism is used in different sense in the scriptures, do you know them? There are many doctrines in the scriptures, many on this forum being debated daily.

know I can be wrong because God did not miraculously zap faith into me causing a miraculous understanding of His gospel.

I never said God zapped us with knowledge, never. Our growth in grace and knowledge of the truth does indeed takes in many factors in order for us to do both Understanding the gospel has not one thing to do with the new birth, at least according to the word of God, in your religion it does.


I'll come back later to finish...you need to answer my question to you, and stop evading Matthew 16.

 

[Titus]

2nd Timothy 1:10​

“But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:”

- Life and immorality through(by the means of accomplished)
- Life and immortality to light by the means of the gospel.

The Greek literally teaches life and immortality is accomplished by means of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Stop wasting my time.
Matthew 22:29.

I said you are born again apart from the gospel, but the gospel

Colossians 2:23,
- These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self made religion and asceticism and severity to the body but they are of no value in stopping the indulgences of the flesh

 

[dwight92070]

Many that deny that works are necessary for justification claim that James 2:24 speaks only of appearing righteous before people, not before God.

James 2:24 states that a person is justified. Not seen as justified, not shown as justified but justified.
Paul uses the same Greek word for justified in Romans 5:1 that James uses inJames 2:24.

Also there is no mention of men or human observers in the verse.
The subject of chapter 2 is what makes a person righteous not how they appear to others.

James is teaching on salvation not appearance.
James 2:14,
- what does it profit my brethren if someone says he has faith but does not have works can faith alone save him

James is discussing what kind of faith saves not what works justifies before men.

James 2:24, Romans 5:1
- you see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

Paul uses the same Greek word.
Romans 5:1,
- therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Paul and James harmonize perfectly.
Justified by faith.
Justified by works.

Once you learn what true Biblical saving faith is. You no longer struggle with reconciling James teaching with Pauls.

John joins them together perfectly.
John 3:36,
- he who believes in the Son has eternal life but he who does not  obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him

Romans 5:1 justified by faith
James 2:24 justified by works.

Faith without works is dead. Justified by faith that is not dead but living, working out of love.

James teaches works are faith acting in obedience. This faith justifies.
Likewise Paul teaches faith that justifies works through love.
Galatians 5:6,
- for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision not uncircumcision means anything but faith working through love

Ephesians 2:8-9 salvation by grace through faith.
Hebrews 5:8-9 eternal life by obedience to Jesus.

- for by grace you have been saved through faith....
- Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to all that obey Him

That's enough to know that the faith that saves is the faith that obeys.
James and Paul both teach the same obedient faith that Justifies before God.
Both reject faith alone apart from obedient works.

James 2:24,
- you see that a man is justified by works(obedience) and not by faith alone(belief that does not work obedience)

You didn't mention Romans 1:5 - "... through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,"

Paul is speaking about his ministry of bringing Gentiles to salvation by the obedience of faith. When someone obeys the message of the gospel - "repent and believe in the gospel" Mark 1:15, they are exercising faith - the obedience of faith. There is no work involved in salvation. Repenting, believing, obeying these requirements to get saved - have nothing to do with works. These are all things that take place in the heart, not some outward work.

You also did not mention what Jesus said in John 6:29 "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
Again, Jesus is clear - only one "work" is required for salvation - believing in Jesus - which is really not a work at all.

Romans 5:1 Paul does seem to be referring to salvation here.

As I have said before, there is a justification at salvation, but even after salvation, we are justified, that is seen to be righteous by our faith, which is then displayed through our works.

Jesus said: "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father in heaven."
When our faith produces good works (with a motive of not trying to be seen by men), we are justified before (God) and men - i.e. they see the good works and glorify God.

James 2:24 is not talking about salvation, because no one can be saved by works.

"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy ... " Titus 3:5

 

[Jim]

Jim can you change the color blue to black it would be better for me to read,

Sorry!

 

[dwight92070]

Then faith is not genuine unless it has works.
Belief without works is not genuine faith.
Salvation by a faith without obedient works is salvation by with a faith that does not work.
James refers to faith with no works as dead, imperfect.

The opposite of genuine:
counterfeit
Fake
Insincere
Phony
Pretend

Paul and James both teach faith that justifies works. The source of the action/work is love for God,
Galatians 5:6,
- for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision profits anything but faith working through love

Faith that does not work has no love.
Faith alone salvation is belief in Christ but the action of obedience in doing Jesus' gospel is love.
Therefore faith that produces love for Jesus obeys Jesus by working His new testament commandments in His gospel.

Faith alone salvation is a loveless gospel.
1Corinthians 16:22,
- if anyone does not love the Lord he is to be accursed

Jesus teaches true faith acts by obeying Jesus/God.
These works of love are the evidence of true faith in Christ.

1John 2:3-5,
- now by this we know that we know Jesus if we keep His commandments
- he who says I know Him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him
- But whoever keeps His word truly the love of God is perfected in him, by this we know that we know Him

John 14:21,
- he who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me...

No works, no commandment keeping in faith alone salvation, no obedience.
Therefore faith alone salvation is a loveless gospel.

Christ commands us to love,
Matthew 22:37-38,
- thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy mind,
this is the first and great commandment
Love is a good work.
John 13:34,
- a new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another as I have loved you

This love is the motivation for obedience. Our obedience is our good works.
1John 5:3,
- for this is the love of God that we keep His commandments and His commandments are not grievous

The faith alone advocates teach man does nothing to be saved.
Then love is also omitted from their plan of salvation as we do the work of love.
God does not do the loving for us. Just as God does not do the believing for us. He already loved us when we were without love,
Romans 6:23, 5:6-8
- for the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
- but God commendeth His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us

Paul taught saving faith loves God and this love motivates one to obedience.
Jesus Himself saves those who love Him. Jesus ties faith and love together.

Luke 7:47-48;50
- wherefore I say unto thee her sins which are many are forgiven for she loved much but to whom little is forgiven the same loveth little
- and Jesus said unto her, thy sins are forgiven
- and said unto the women, thy faith saved thee go in peace

Jesus ties faith that saves with faith that loves Him.
This aligns with what Paul taught about faith, Galatians 5:6,
- faith working through love

Faith that loves Christ is faith that saves.
And that love is shown in obedient works, devotion.

Exactly why James teaches faith void, empty of works is dead.
The only faith that justifies is a faith that obeys Jesus' commandments by working through love.
This is Biblical saving faith that justifies.

James 2:24,
- ye see then how that by works(obedience motivated by love for Jesus) a man is justified
- and NOT by faith only(faith void of obedient works)

Paul and James agree.
Faith that saves is faith that obeys, i.e. works love.
Romans 16:25-26,
- Now in Him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret since the world began
- but now is made manifest and by the scriptures of the prophets according to the commandments of the everlasting God made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

The gospel is made known to all nations, so that they might respond with the obedience of faith - which is salvation. Notice it does not say, "the obedience of works", which only comes after salvation, which is exactly what James is talking about.

 

[Jim]

World is not all without exception, but all without distinction! God does make a distinction among both Jews and Gentiles regenerating only the children of God's promises.

That comes not from scripture; but rather it comes from your own thinking. I understand why. If that is not true, then so much of your theology, and not just soteriology, must be set aside.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

You change the meaning of world to suit your beliefs. You would have us believe that God did, in fact, send his Son into most of the world to condemn the world. He did not.

 

[Jim]

Again, a major point of James letter is to pose the question, "How can you say you believe in God and then not do what He says?"

 

[Titus]

The gospel is made known to all nations, so that they might respond with the obedience of faith - which is salvation. Notice it does not say, "the obedience of works", which only comes after salvation, which is exactly what James is talking about.

Obedience of faith produces obedient works.
Disobedient faith produces faith alone.

You cannot have an obedient faith without works friend.
Faith absent of works is a dead faith, James 2:24.
The obedience is works.

- ye see that by works (obedience) a man is justified and not by faith alone

Do you see how James separates obedient faith from faith alone(no obedience)?

Repentance for example is worked in obedient faith.

All commandments must be worked. You cannot obey a commandment by just believing in what is commanded. You must act by doing what God commanded.
Acts 17:30,
- and these times of ignorance God winked at but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent

God judges us on judgment day to be justified or condemned by the works we have done,
Romans 2:6-8,
- who will render to every man according to his works to them by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life

Faith alone for eternal life is a fable. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

I'll come back later to finish...you need to answer my question to you, and stop evading Matthew 16.

Still waiting ~ if you refuse to do so, then it only proves that you know you have no answer, for if you answered according to what you believe, and teach, then it would condemn your teaching and your church that you are trusting in to get you to heaven/the world to come.

It is amazing that you have addressed very few of my points that I made against what you have said, which does not surprise me, and it will not surprise me to see you stop posting here in this thread as you did in the last one you and I went head to head.

 

[Titus]

@Titus

Still waiting ~ if you refuse to do so, then it only proves that you know you have no answer, for if you answered according to what you believe, and teach, then it would condemn your teaching and your church that you are trusting in to get you to heaven/the world to come.

It is amazing that you have addressed very few of my points that I made against what you have said, which does not surprise me, and it will not surprise me to see you stop posting here in this thread as you did in the last one you and I went head to head.

It proves I answer if I want to.
Stop bothering me.
Blind men are oblivious to being refuted.