James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

[Titus]

It is not so much "deeper" as it is just "changed"

Yes, by "deeper" I mean misinterpretation.
God says what He means and means what He says.
If I need long winded explanations to plain speaking like for instance Mark 16:15-16.
I know God never intended to be the author of confusion.
Someone who cant say what Jesus plainly says is lost in the weeds.

To prove my point.
Could Red Baker even give a straight answer to this simple question?

Mark 16:15-16,
- and Jesus said unto them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature
he that believeth  and is baptized will be saved; he that believeth not will be condemned

Question: does Jesus say one will be saved when they:
A. When one believes is saved then should be baptized because they are already saved?
B. When one believes and is baptized will be saved?
C. Before one believes is already saved then believes and later is baptized?
D. All are saved regardless of being a believer or baptized?
E. Jesus said if one doesnt believe then it doesn't matter that they are baptized because unbelievers are condemned already?

What do you think? I'm curious to what you think.
Could Red Baker teach what Jesus taught plainly?
Or would he be incapable of speaking exactly as the Bible speaks, 1Peter 4:11?

 

[Titus]

Titus, there has always been a church based upon the meaning of the word: "called out ones"......to call out or call together, denotes an assembly. The worshipers of Jehovah or the true God, before the advent of Christ; as the Jewish church,

Acts 7:38​

“This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Amazing.
if I told someone you taught this they would not believe me.

The old testament church has always from eternity existed?
Amazing.
Genesis 12:1-2,
- the Lord said to Abram go from your country your people and your fathers household to the land i will show you,
I will make you into a great nation....

Doesnt sound like the Bible teaches the church in the wilderness has existed for all eternity.
Red Baker where do you come up with this stuff? Not the Bible.

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

Red Baker where do you come up with this stuff? Not the Bible

As far as God's eternal purposes which only goes to before the foundation of the world, for that's as far as our little minds can go.

Btw, answer my last post to you. concerning how Christ is building his church. What is the Rock upon which the church is being built upon? A very important question. You might want to call some of your friends in to help you with this one.

 

[Titus]

@Titus

As far as God's eternal purposes which only goes to before the foundation of the world, for that's as far as our little minds can go.

Btw, answer my last post to you. concerning how Christ is building his church. What is the Rock upon which the church is being built upon? A very important question. You might want to call some of your friends in to help you with this one.

No. You don't even give Biblical responses.
Give scripture for your belief that the church/body has eternally existed?

So far you have a church/body that is not even real. Your teaching on the body/church is make believe.
Now you are demanding that I explain what the church is built upon.
You need to admit you have no understanding of what the church is before you try and continue teaching on the church/body.

You've already proven you have no understanding on the body. So you have no credibility to teach me what the church is built upon.

Hebrews 5:12,
- for though by this time you ought to be teachers you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God and you have come to need milk and not soild food

 

[praise_yeshua]

We see a similar statement in Matthew 3:7-9 in which these brood of vipers (Pharisees and Sadducees) were not interested in repentance.

Not true repentance. I agree. They wanted to appear to be repentive.

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

No. You don't even give Biblical responses.

Titus, you are flat out lying, and that without any shame it seems. If you can live that, so be it. God judge between you and me!

You are now doing what you did on the last thread we were on, you got to a point, where you had no answers, and then you looked for a seemly way out without answering my post made to you for you to give an answer concerning.. Any honest person can read these few post and see you cannot answer my post to you, without exposing yourself as a false teacher of the word of God.

You need to admit you have no understanding of what the church is before you try and continue teaching on the church/body.

Really? then prove I do not by answering my post to you concerning Matthew 16.

Hebrews 5:12,
- for though by this time you ought to be teachers you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God and you have come to need milk and not soild food

I've been doing this most likely longer than you have lived in this world ~ but be as it may be, answer my post and test me, and THEN we shall see who is choking on milk! Your lifeless Spirit religion has you badly deceived Mr. Titus.

 

[Titus]

Titus, you are flat out lying, and that without any shame it seems. If you can live that, so be it. God judge between you and me!

Quite me lying.

 

[Titus]

Really? then prove I do not by answering my post to you concerning Matthew 16

Amazing.
if I told someone you taught this they would not believe me.

The old testament church has always from eternity existed?
Amazing.
Genesis 12:1-2,
- the Lord said to Abram go from your country your people and your fathers household to the land i will show you,
I will make you into a great nation....

Doesnt sound like the Bible teaches the church in the wilderness has existed for all eternity.
Red Baker where do you come up with this stuff? Not the Bible.

You need to explain your teaching that the church/body has always existed for all eternity.

All of the elect have been part of Christ's body from eternity, there has never been a time when they have not been view by God as not part of Christ elect body, he being the head and they his members. How else are you going to understand such scriptures and there are many more, but for now:

Matthew 16:18,
- and thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build(future tense) My church/body
Existed for all eternity? Not according to Jesus.
Also quote me lying.

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

You need to explain your teaching that the church/body has always existed for all eternity.

If from all eternity is too much for you to accept, then Titus, just say before the foundation of the earth, which basically is the same.

2nd Timothy 1:9​

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:”

David, who was a prophet wrote these words speaking in the person of Christ:

Psalm 139: 14-16~"I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."

Christ is the head of an elect body, and believers are members of that body ~so who do you think this pertains to? God's elect names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the earth, when there was none of them as of yet! Titus who is Isaiah prophesying of?

Isaiah 42:1-7~"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

Jesus Christ did not live as a private person, but as the surety of God's elect.

Ephesians 1:4~According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:​

The “in Christ” relationship on which all spiritual blessings depend is our election in Him, as can be clearly seen by the connection of this verse to the preceding verse. All spiritual blessings of the previous verse are in Christ. How do sinners get into Christ legally?

The Roman Catholic Church would say we must be baptized into it in order to be in Him. Alexander Campbell’s so-called Church of Christ would say the same thing (Gal 3:27).

But the true gospel of Jesus Christ declares right here that it is based on election in Christ. Salvation is by God’s purpose and grace given in Christ before the world (2nd Timothy 1:9). God chose Paul and the Ephesian saints and us in Jesus Christ – this is election defined. The great determining factor in salvation and the spiritual riches of Christ is God’s choice.

According as: Consistently as, exactly or just as, in a manner corresponding to the way in which …”

Titus, If you choose God or not has only practical benefits or consequences, not eternal life. It is the sovereign will of the great God that determines salvation (Romans 9:10-24).

He did not choose by foreknowledge those who had chosen to be in Christ, for (a) this contradicts Psalm 14:1-3; Romans 3:3"9-18 (b) it would make your choice supreme.

God’s eternal choice was to place and view the elect in Jesus Christ legally and covenantly. The choice was made before the foundation of the world – before the act of creation.

Here are cross-references for this ancient decree in the mind of God (Matthew 25 34; Acts 15:18; Ephesians 3:11; etc. In this eternal sense, they were already viewed as adopted, justified, reconciled, etc., etc. This is the proper basis for blessing God – He chose his people to all spiritual blessings long ago.

Matthew 16:18,
- and thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build(future tense) My church/body

Titus, this is true, yet it does not nullify the truth that there was never a church before Acts 2, for we have proven that there was indeed based upon the very meaning of the word "Church".

Now, will you please address Matthew 16 that I posted to you.

 

[Jim]

What do you think? I'm curious to what you think.
Could Red Baker teach what Jesus taught plainly?
Or would he be incapable of speaking exactly as the Bible speaks, 1Peter 4:11?

Red and I have been in conversation about these things for many years now. I can say this. Red is an honest and honorable man. I believe that he loves God and Jesus Christ sincerely and deeply. Absent some unintended errors, Red truly believes what he says, preaches and teaches. And for the most part, Red's logical argument is good. However, so much of his logic is premised on faulty assumptions, beginnings and/or interpretations. Thereby so much of the conclusions he arrives at are faulty as are his premises. Like Augustine, Calvin and so many others, Red accepts and believes the faulty concept that the spirit of man is dead at birth (or before) in Adam's sin. Not only is that spirit dead at birth, but additionally, with that dead spirit, man is incapable of hearing, seeing, thinking, believing any spiritual truth. Once that horrendously bad idea is accepted by anyone, basically everything else that they present as soteriology is firmly grounded in that idea and therefore is horrendously bad as well. Since the T in TULIP is false, the whole of TULIP at any level is false.