James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

[Titus]

It is not so much "deeper" as it is just "changed"

Yes, by "deeper" I mean misinterpretation.
God says what He means and means what He says.
If I need long winded explanations to plain speaking like for instance Mark 16:15-16.
I know God never intended to be the author of confusion.
Someone who cant say what Jesus plainly says is lost in the weeds.

To prove my point.
Could Red Baker even give a straight answer to this simple question?

Mark 16:15-16,
- and Jesus said unto them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature
he that believeth  and is baptized will be saved; he that believeth not will be condemned

Question: does Jesus say one will be saved when they:
A. When one believes is saved then should be baptized because they are already saved?
B. When one believes and is baptized will be saved?
C. Before one believes is already saved then believes and later is baptized?
D. All are saved regardless of being a believer or baptized?
E. Jesus said if one doesnt believe then it doesn't matter that they are baptized because unbelievers are condemned already?

What do you think? I'm curious to what you think.
Could Red Baker teach what Jesus taught plainly?
Or would he be incapable of speaking exactly as the Bible speaks, 1Peter 4:11?

 

[Titus]

Titus, there has always been a church based upon the meaning of the word: "called out ones"......to call out or call together, denotes an assembly. The worshipers of Jehovah or the true God, before the advent of Christ; as the Jewish church,

Acts 7:38​

“This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Amazing.
if I told someone you taught this they would not believe me.

The old testament church has always from eternity existed?
Amazing.
Genesis 12:1-2,
- the Lord said to Abram go from your country your people and your fathers household to the land i will show you,
I will make you into a great nation....

Doesnt sound like the Bible teaches the church in the wilderness has existed for all eternity.
Red Baker where do you come up with this stuff? Not the Bible.

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

Red Baker where do you come up with this stuff? Not the Bible

As far as God's eternal purposes which only goes to before the foundation of the world, for that's as far as our little minds can go.

Btw, answer my last post to you. concerning how Christ is building his church. What is the Rock upon which the church is being built upon? A very important question. You might want to call some of your friends in to help you with this one.

 

[Titus]

@Titus

As far as God's eternal purposes which only goes to before the foundation of the world, for that's as far as our little minds can go.

Btw, answer my last post to you. concerning how Christ is building his church. What is the Rock upon which the church is being built upon? A very important question. You might want to call some of your friends in to help you with this one.

No. You don't even give Biblical responses.
Give scripture for your belief that the church/body has eternally existed?

So far you have a church/body that is not even real. Your teaching on the body/church is make believe.
Now you are demanding that I explain what the church is built upon.
You need to admit you have no understanding of what the church is before you try and continue teaching on the church/body.

You've already proven you have no understanding on the body. So you have no credibility to teach me what the church is built upon.

Hebrews 5:12,
- for though by this time you ought to be teachers you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God and you have come to need milk and not soild food

 

[praise_yeshua]

We see a similar statement in Matthew 3:7-9 in which these brood of vipers (Pharisees and Sadducees) were not interested in repentance.

Not true repentance. I agree. They wanted to appear to be repentive.

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

No. You don't even give Biblical responses.

Titus, you are flat out lying, and that without any shame it seems. If you can live that, so be it. God judge between you and me!

You are now doing what you did on the last thread we were on, you got to a point, where you had no answers, and then you looked for a seemly way out without answering my post made to you for you to give an answer concerning.. Any honest person can read these few post and see you cannot answer my post to you, without exposing yourself as a false teacher of the word of God.

You need to admit you have no understanding of what the church is before you try and continue teaching on the church/body.

Really? then prove I do not by answering my post to you concerning Matthew 16.

Hebrews 5:12,
- for though by this time you ought to be teachers you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God and you have come to need milk and not soild food

I've been doing this most likely longer than you have lived in this world ~ but be as it may be, answer my post and test me, and THEN we shall see who is choking on milk! Your lifeless Spirit religion has you badly deceived Mr. Titus.

 

[Titus]

Titus, you are flat out lying, and that without any shame it seems. If you can live that, so be it. God judge between you and me!

Quite me lying.

 

[Titus]

Really? then prove I do not by answering my post to you concerning Matthew 16

Amazing.
if I told someone you taught this they would not believe me.

The old testament church has always from eternity existed?
Amazing.
Genesis 12:1-2,
- the Lord said to Abram go from your country your people and your fathers household to the land i will show you,
I will make you into a great nation....

Doesnt sound like the Bible teaches the church in the wilderness has existed for all eternity.
Red Baker where do you come up with this stuff? Not the Bible.

You need to explain your teaching that the church/body has always existed for all eternity.

All of the elect have been part of Christ's body from eternity, there has never been a time when they have not been view by God as not part of Christ elect body, he being the head and they his members. How else are you going to understand such scriptures and there are many more, but for now:

Matthew 16:18,
- and thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build(future tense) My church/body
Existed for all eternity? Not according to Jesus.
Also quote me lying.

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

You need to explain your teaching that the church/body has always existed for all eternity.

If from all eternity is too much for you to accept, then Titus, just say before the foundation of the earth, which basically is the same.

2nd Timothy 1:9​

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:”

David, who was a prophet wrote these words speaking in the person of Christ:

Psalm 139: 14-16~"I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."

Christ is the head of an elect body, and believers are members of that body ~so who do you think this pertains to? God's elect names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the earth, when there was none of them as of yet! Titus who is Isaiah prophesying of?

Isaiah 42:1-7~"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

Jesus Christ did not live as a private person, but as the surety of God's elect.

Ephesians 1:4~According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:​

The “in Christ” relationship on which all spiritual blessings depend is our election in Him, as can be clearly seen by the connection of this verse to the preceding verse. All spiritual blessings of the previous verse are in Christ. How do sinners get into Christ legally?

The Roman Catholic Church would say we must be baptized into it in order to be in Him. Alexander Campbell’s so-called Church of Christ would say the same thing (Gal 3:27).

But the true gospel of Jesus Christ declares right here that it is based on election in Christ. Salvation is by God’s purpose and grace given in Christ before the world (2nd Timothy 1:9). God chose Paul and the Ephesian saints and us in Jesus Christ – this is election defined. The great determining factor in salvation and the spiritual riches of Christ is God’s choice.

According as: Consistently as, exactly or just as, in a manner corresponding to the way in which …”

Titus, If you choose God or not has only practical benefits or consequences, not eternal life. It is the sovereign will of the great God that determines salvation (Romans 9:10-24).

He did not choose by foreknowledge those who had chosen to be in Christ, for (a) this contradicts Psalm 14:1-3; Romans 3:3"9-18 (b) it would make your choice supreme.

God’s eternal choice was to place and view the elect in Jesus Christ legally and covenantly. The choice was made before the foundation of the world – before the act of creation.

Here are cross-references for this ancient decree in the mind of God (Matthew 25 34; Acts 15:18; Ephesians 3:11; etc. In this eternal sense, they were already viewed as adopted, justified, reconciled, etc., etc. This is the proper basis for blessing God – He chose his people to all spiritual blessings long ago.

Matthew 16:18,
- and thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build(future tense) My church/body

Titus, this is true, yet it does not nullify the truth that there was never a church before Acts 2, for we have proven that there was indeed based upon the very meaning of the word "Church".

Now, will you please address Matthew 16 that I posted to you.

 

[Jim]

What do you think? I'm curious to what you think.
Could Red Baker teach what Jesus taught plainly?
Or would he be incapable of speaking exactly as the Bible speaks, 1Peter 4:11?

Red and I have been in conversation about these things for many years now. I can say this. Red is an honest and honorable man. I believe that he loves God and Jesus Christ sincerely and deeply. Absent some unintended errors, Red truly believes what he says, preaches and teaches. And for the most part, Red's logical argument is good. However, so much of his logic is premised on faulty assumptions, beginnings and/or interpretations. Thereby so much of the conclusions he arrives at are faulty as are his premises. Like Augustine, Calvin and so many others, Red accepts and believes the faulty concept that the spirit of man is dead at birth (or before) in Adam's sin. Not only is that spirit dead at birth, but additionally, with that dead spirit, man is incapable of hearing, seeing, thinking, believing any spiritual truth. Once that horrendously bad idea is accepted by anyone, basically everything else that they present as soteriology is firmly grounded in that idea and therefore is horrendously bad as well. Since the T in TULIP is false, the whole of TULIP at any level is false.

 

[Titus]

Red and I have been in conversation about these things for many years now. I can say this. Red is an honest and honorable man. I believe that he loves God and Jesus Christ sincerely and deeply. Absent some unintended errors, Red truly believes what he says, preaches and teaches. And for the most part, Red's logical argument is good. However, so much of his logic is premised on faulty assumptions, beginnings and/or interpretations. Thereby so much of the conclusions he arrives at are faulty as are his premises. Like Augustine, Calvin and so many others, Red accepts and believes the faulty concept that the spirit of man is dead at birth (or before) in Adam's sin. Not only is that spirit dead at birth, but additionally, with that dead spirit, man is incapable of hearing, seeing, thinking, believing any spiritual truth. Once that horrendously bad idea is accepted by anyone, basically everything else that they present as soteriology is firmly grounded in that idea and therefore is horrendously bad as well. Since the T in TULIP is false, the whole of TULIP at any level is false.

Could he give a simple answer to my question?

To prove my point.
Could Red Baker even give a straight answer to this simple question?

Mark 16:15-16,
- and Jesus said unto them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature
he that believeth  and is baptized will be saved; he that believeth not will be condemned

Question: does Jesus say one will be saved when they:
A. When one believes is saved then should be baptized because they are already saved?
B. When one believes and is baptized will be saved?
C. Before one believes is already saved then believes and later is baptized?
D. All are saved regardless of being a believer or baptized?
E. Jesus said if one doesnt believe then it doesn't matter that they are baptized because unbelievers are condemned already?

What do you think? I'm curious to what you think.
Could Red Baker teach what Jesus taught plainly?
Or would he be incapable of speaking exactly as the Bible speaks, 1Peter 4:11?

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

I know God never intended to be the author of confusion.

Then Titus you truly need to read your bible more carefully.

Here's four sermons preached by a very close friend of mine that I have known for many years now and we have worshipped together, and been in each others homes several times over the years.

Is God the Author of Confusion? (4 sermons)

letgodbetrue.com

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

Could he give a simple answer to my question?

Titus, you chose one question, or more if you desire to do so, and I will address any of them. Go back four or five pages on this thread and you will see between you and I which one are answering the others questions.

If I answer your next question, then you must address Matthew 16 concerning the meaning of the "rock" upon which Christ is building his Church.

Matthew 16:17,18​

“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

 

[Titus]

If from all eternity is too much for you to accept, then Titus, just say before the foundation of the earth, which basically is the same.

No I like that you used from all eternity.
Stay consistent with your teaching.

All of the elect have been part of Christ's body from eternity, there has never been a time when they have not been view by God as not part of Christ elect body, he being the head and they his members. How else are you going to understand such scriptures and there are many more, but for now

2nd Timothy 1:9​

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:”

In Christ .
The Bible teaches all get into Christ by the gospel which is Gods plan of salvation.
God calls us through His gospel plan.

Before the world began God had a plan on how He would save mankind.
This plan of salvation is how the lost get in Christ.
One hears Jesus' gospel and by obeying it one is put in Christ.
Galatians 3:26-27,
- for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ

2 Timothy 1:9,
- who hath saved us(christians born of the gospel, Romans 1:16) and called us(by the gospel) with an holy calling(Acts 2:39)
- not according to our works(the word works here in Greek is works of merit not works of faith).
- but according to His own purpose and grace,

which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Red Baker, which was given us is the saved that chose to obey His gospel, Galatians 3:26-27.
What was given us(the baptized into Christ) before the world began?

Baker thinks its unconditional election of hand picked individuals.No.

- which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began
Heres what it is,
The grace which made possible our salvation from sin was in the purpose and plan of God before the world began.

So before the creation of the universe God had in mind to impart His grace to those IN Christ.
Mr. Baker takes verses literal to fit his theology.
But Gods grace was not given to those in Christ before the universe.
It's called figurative language. The Bible is full of figurative language.

Then what was literally given to us(baptized believers) before the world began?
In Gods plan to save us was planned out before the world.
By His grace was how His plan would save us.
Therefore the certainty of Gods gift(Grace) was literally.

The certainty of Gods grace on those who will believe and obey Jesus' gospel was so beyond question it is spoken of as an accomplished fact:
Genesis 17:5,
- neither shall thy name any more be called Abram but thy name shall be Abraham for a father of many nations have I made thee

Romans 4:17,
- as it is written I have made thee a father of many nations before him whom he believed even God, who quickeneth the dead and calleth those things which be not as though they were

Revelation 13:8,
- and all that dwell upon the earth shall worship Him whose names are written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

This grace is now been made manifest, 2 Timothy 1:9 how? By the appearing of Jesus Christ.

Also the gospel of grace is said to have once been a mystery now has been made known by the appearing of Jesus Christ.

You cannot take it literally that those IN Christ were in Christ before the foundation of the world, lol.
That's Mr. Bakers belief.

Those who do not yet exist have not been given souls by God cannot be literally in Christ before the creation of the universe.

But what can be given us in Christ Jesus before the world began?
Gods certainty to save is beyond question,(Grace) those in the future that give their lives to God through obedience to His gospel where He imparts grace.

Notice the end of verse 2Timothy 1:9, 10
- who hath saved us and called us(by the gospel) with an holy calling not according to our works but according to His own purpose and grace which was given us IN Christ Jesus before the world began
- but is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ who hath abolished death, and hath brought  life and immortality to light through the gospel

The word immortality means incorruption.
The gospel makes certain immortality.

Once again it's the gospel that saves gets one elected puts one in Christ.
No one is elected until the gospel saves them.

1Corinthians 15:52,53
- in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet for the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed
- for this corruptible must put on  incorruption and this mortal put on immorality

Galatians 3:27 - for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ

 

[Titus]

@Titus

Titus, you chose one question, or more if you desire to do so, and I will address any of them. Go back four or five pages on this thread and you will see between you and I which one are answering the others questions.

If I answer your next question, then you must address Matthew 16 concerning the meaning of the "rock" upon which Christ is building his Church.

Matthew 16:17,18​

“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

Rehtorical.

I'd be shocked if you actually did answer.

 

[Titus]

Why do you not take what I believe and teach and prove it unbiblical with the scriptures, and if one has the truth, it will expose error, without name calling ~you must interject Calvinism into your argument and the reason being, is that you have no other strong points

Ephesians 1:4​

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

We were chosen IN CHRIST, before the foundation of the world. Can words be any clearer spoken?

Listen to Red Baker's calvinist interpretation of the verse above, Ephesians 1:3.
He says, can the words be any clearer?

All of the elect have been part of Christ body from eternity, there has never been a time when they have not been view by God as not part of Christ's elect body, he being the head and they his members. How else are you going to understand such scriptures and there are many more, but for now:

Red Baker's teaching on what Paul's teaching is Ephesians 1:3 is that Gods elect have been put in Christ's body for all of eternity.

Let's read the verse and see if Mr. Baker is interpreting Ephesians 1:3- 4 correctly?
- blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ

- just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him in love

Mr. Baker tells me it could not be more obvious that the Lords body has been in Christ for all eternity.

He believes Ephesians 1:4 says God put the elect In Christ before the foundation of the world thereby proving me incorrect that the elect were not first put IN Christ in their baptism, Galatians 3:26-27.

Is he being led by the Spirit?
Is the Spirit of God guiding him to rightly divide the word of God?
No, therefore I have good reason to doubt his claim of miraculous indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Heres what the Spirit is teaching through Paul in Ephesians 1:4,
- He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world....

Red Bakers teaching:
- He put us in Him before the foundation of the world...

The Spirit says God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world.
But the Spirit does not say God already put us in Christ before the foundation of the world.

God choose the location(the Lords church, His body) before the world where He would put ,add the saved.

God did not already put the elect individuals in Christ before the world for eternity.

Mr. Baker needs to learn from the Bible rather than presuppositional calvinist doctrines.

The church or body of Christ has not been with God before the creation of the world.
That's when God chose to save them in Christ meaning in the church body.

Acts 2:47,
- praising God and having favor with all the people and the Lord added to the church daily such as were being saved

Mr. Baker said they(born again) were already added to the church before the foundation of the world.
Not according to the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 1:3 and Acts 2:47.
God was adding them there at that time!!!
That's what the Bible literally says. No interpretation by me needed to explain how this really didn't take place in Acts 2 on pentecost but a long, long, time ago before the foundation of the world.

I teach Bible not the private interpretations of men.

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

Stay consistent with your teaching.

One thing I will do is stay consistence ~ the only way I would not, is if, another brother, or sister, can point out an error, and use scriptures to do so, to convert me from an error, then I would change and have over the years on several points from what I first was taught.

I have changed on eschatology completely from what I was first taught, and it took about five years studying on my own to do so. I changed on Soteriology to where I'm now, just to mention a few major changes. but there are many more. all of these took place in the first five years or so, maybe some a little longer.

So, no problem with me changing if I see my self in error, then we must submit to God's word over our own doctrines, that may be hard to let go of. I think I read this once from Charles Spurgeon ~ we must have one hand holding tight the word of God, while the other hand must be open to any truth that we may not have as of it. I have lived by that all of my Christian life of serving God.

Titus one of the very first teaching that I had to get settled on was water baptism, since I worked with a few Church of Christ folks who where also close friends of mine, (and I had breakfast with a coc minster a couple times a week since we went to the same place for breakfast, and he was the only religious person I found there, and we built a friendly relationship between us) so to say that we have a few discussions would be an under statement, yet they force me to do a serious search for the truth as a very young believer. I read everything I got my hands on, plus my own personal studies many hours a week as much as time allowed me, with working and having a young family to care for. I poured over their favorite scriptures and comparing their teachings with many saints much older than myself. And to be honest, I was not satisfied with many of my favorite teachers with their weak arguments, so, I just kept pursing until I felt comfortable I found the truth, and it is where I stand today, mostly coming from my own studies and searching. So, in one sense I owe much to your sect, for they force me to dig deeper and work harder to know the truth on this subject, and to refuse what man may say, including those I worshipped with at the time.

 

[Jim]

@Red Baker,
It is absolutely true that God knew from before creation who would receive His Son and be saved. However, that God knew from before creation whom He would save does not mean that He would indeed save them before creation. Nor does it mean that they were singled out by Him to be saved. As I have said many times in our talks back and forth over the years, foreknowledge is not causative. What God knows will happen in the future is certain, but it is certain because He causes it to be certain. God's foreknowledge does not preclude our free will, and it is our free will choices which makes certain the future that God knows. He knows what choices we will make even though He does not cause those choices to be made.

It seems that too many in the Reformed Theology camp are unable to accept the fact that God's foreknowledge and His acts of predestination are two separate and features of God's being. The fact that the names of those obtaining eternal life are "written in God's book of life" before the world began does not mean that they were saved, that they had obtained eternal life, before the world began. They obtained eternal life at some specific time in their lives, and not before.

 

[Jim]

@Titus

One thing I will do is stay consistence ~ the only way I would not, is if, another brother, or sister, can point out an error, and use scriptures to do so, to convert me from an error, then I would change and have over the years on several points from what I first was taught.

I have changed on eschatology completely from what I was first taught, and it took about five years studying on my own to do so. I changed on Soteriology to where I'm now, just to mention a few major changes. but there are many more. all of these took place in the first five years or so, maybe some a little longer.

So, no problem with me changing if I see my self in error, then we must submit to God's word over our own doctrines, that may be hard to let go of. I think I read this once from Charles Spurgeon ~ we must have one hand holding tight the word of God, while the other hand must be open to any truth that we may not have as of it. I have lived by that all of my Christian life of serving God.

Titus one of the very first teaching that I had to get settled on was water baptism, since I worked with a few Church of Christ folks who where also close friends of mine, (and I had breakfast with a coc minster a couple times a week since we went to the same place for breakfast, and he was the only religious person I found there, and we built a friendly relationship between us) so to say that we have a few discussions would be an under statement, yet they force me to do a serious search for the truth as a very young believer. I read everything I got my hands on, plus my own personal studies many hours a week as much as time allowed me, with working and having a young family to care for. I poured over their favorite scriptures and comparing their teachings with many saints much older than myself. And to be honest, I was not satisfied with many of my favorite teachers with their weak arguments, so, I just kept pursing until I felt comfortable I found the truth, and it is where I stand today, mostly coming from my own studies and searching. So, in one sense I owe much to your sect, for they force me to dig deeper and work harder to know the truth on this subject, and to refuse what man may say, including those I worshipped with at the time.

I would have thought that CofC minister would have told you what the meaning of the Greek word "eis" meant; but apparently not Either that or you simply refused to accept the truth.

 

[Jim]

Mr. Baker said they(born again) were already added to the church before the foundation of the world.
Not according to the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 1:3 and Acts 2:47.
God was adding them there at that time!!!
That's what the Bible literally says. No interpretation by me needed to explain how this really didn't take place in Acts 2 on pentecost but a long, long, time ago before the foundation of the world.

Their names were indeed in God's Book of Life even though they personally had not been saved until such time that they received, believed and obeyed the gospel.