James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

[Red Baker]

@Titus

In Christ .
The Bible teaches all get into Christ by the gospel which is Gods plan of salvation.

Be patience with me and I will work my way through your two post. I'm going to make a few short post, so that each point can be ponder separately, and carefully, and no problem if you respond back in the same manner.

Titus, "in Christ" is important, and the scriptures clearly tell us how one gets into Christ in more than one sense.

First and foremost, God's elect are chosen by God and given to Jesus Christ to be their surety in order to secured their redemption from sin and condemnation. Ephesians 1:4 that we have given to you more than once is a strong proof text scripture supporting what I'm saying concerning being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. God has loved his elect with an everlasting love, since time did not exist before creation, so, there's never been a time when God has not loved his people and viewed them in Christ.

Jeremiah 1:5​

“Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.”

Jeremiah 31:3​

“The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.”

As I have said, that the elect have ever been viewed in Christ and loved with an everlasting love. The only way God can love anyone is for them to be in Christ, by God's election of grace. So, the elect are God's children by the election of grace given to Jesus Christ to redeem.

John 17:4​

“I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.”

Titus, what was that work that God gave to His Son to do?

John 17:2​

“As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.”

While on the earth, Jesus imparted eternal life to as many as God gave to him to saved and secured that life for them, by his perfect life of obedience.

Psalms 89:19​

“Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.”

The work God gave to His Son was to secured the salvation of his people, the elect seed of God. Read all of Psalm 89:1-37. This seed was placed in Christ by God's election of free and pure grace from the foundation of the world.

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

Before the world began God had a plan on how He would save mankind.
This plan of salvation is how the lost get in Christ.
One hears Jesus' gospel and by obeying it one is put in Christ.
Galatians 3:26-27,
- for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ

You said: "Before the world began God had a plan on how He would save mankind."

Titus, it was never God's will to save mankind, just as it was not his will to preserved all of the angelic host from leaving their first estate. He could easily have done so, but did not do so, and by not doing so, we learn many truths, that otherwise we would have never known. Every work of God was done according to His infinite wisdom, so we know all was done perfectly, whether or not we can reconcile it with our very limited knowledge.

You said: "This plan of salvation is how the lost get in Christ."

I read and understand that God's salvation plan is mainly constructed how God can be just and the justifier of sinners.

Romans 3:23-28~"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Titus, how can angels and man come to see a blessed truth that God alone is immutable, and cannot be tempted to sin, and that He alone loves righteousness and hated iniquity? But by created both and allowing them to be tempted and fall into sin, and then reveal is love and compassion to us via the fall of man. Many other such truths are revealed to us through the fall of angels that sinned and man. Enough said for now on this point.

You said: "This plan of salvation is how the lost get in Christ."

I read and understand that God's salvation plan is mainly constructed how God can be just and the justifier of sinners. It is through Jesus Christ "alone", living as a surety for God's elect, and being put to death for their sins and being resurrected to secured full payment for their sins ~ so much more could be added, but enough for now, even though we could stay here for many post, in order to educate God's sheep concerning many precious gospel truths.

You said: "Galatians 3:26-27,- for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Titus, I agree, that water baptism puts one INTO the religion/faith/teachings of Jesus Christ in a practical sense. It is an answer of a good conscience, not to make a good conscience, but the answer thereof. A good conscience is one of those fruit that a person brings forth, just as John the Baptist commanded folks to bring forth fruits worthy in order for that person to qualify to be baptized. Only those that do so, should be baptized. all others should be rejected as not being sincere.

 

[Jim]

@Titus

You said: "Before the world began God had a plan on how He would save mankind."

Titus, it was never God's will to save mankind, just as it was not his will to preserved all of the angelic host from leaving their first estate. He could easily have done so.....

No! No! No! God could not have done so. He created man with the ability to obey or not. Given that, God could not simply "save" the sinner and let him into heaven. Sin MUST be punished.

I will presume that God could have created man (and angels) without the ability to choose to sin. But He did not do that. I can speculate what that is so, but that is not the issue here. So then, since He created man with the ability to choose to sin or not, and all have, God needed a way to save mankind. That was the plan. The fact that not all would accept God's plan does not mean that God would not have liked for all to accept His plan. There is not a verse in scripture that says that God purposely wanted to not save some.

 

[civic]

@Red Baker,
It is absolutely true that God knew from before creation who would receive His Son and be saved. However, that God knew from before creation whom He would save does not mean that He would indeed save them before creation. Nor does it mean that they were singled out by Him to be saved. As I have said many times in our talks back and forth over the years, foreknowledge is not causative. What God knows will happen in the future is certain, but it is certain because He causes it to be certain. God's foreknowledge does not preclude our free will, and it is our free will choices which makes certain the future that God knows. He knows what choices we will make even though He does not cause those choices to be made.

It seems that too many in the Reformed Theology camp are unable to accept the fact that God's foreknowledge and His acts of predestination are two separate and features of God's being. The fact that the names of those obtaining eternal life are "written in God's book of life" before the world began does not mean that they were saved, that they had obtained eternal life, before the world began. They obtained eternal life at some specific time in their lives, and not before.

yes two distinct words and concepts.

 

[Jim]

@Red Baker,
It is absolutely true that God knew from before creation who would receive His Son and be saved. However, that God knew from before creation whom He would save does not mean that He would indeed save them before creation. Nor does it mean that they were singled out by Him to be saved. As I have said many times in our talks back and forth over the years, foreknowledge is not causative. What God knows will happen in the future is certain, but it is NOT certain because He causes it to be certain. God's foreknowledge does not preclude our free will, and it is our free will choices which makes certain the future that God knows. He knows what choices we will make even though He does not cause those choices to be made.

It seems that too many in the Reformed Theology camp are unable to accept the fact that God's foreknowledge and His acts of predestination are two separate and features of God's being. The fact that the names of those obtaining eternal life are "written in God's book of life" before the world began does not mean that they were saved, that they had obtained eternal life, before the world began. They obtained eternal life at some specific time in their lives, and not before.

A correction.

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

Notice the end of verse 2Timothy 1:9, 10
- who hath saved us and called us(by the gospel) with an holy calling not according to our works but according to His own purpose and grace which was given us IN Christ Jesus before the world began
- but is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ who hath abolished death, and hath brought  life and immortality to light through the gospel

Titus, the more you attempt to use scriptures, the more you expose your weakness in understanding them. The gospel does not impart spiritual life, but it does have its purpose, which Paul reveals to us in 2nd Timothy 1:10. Listen carefully to what Paul said:

2 Timothy 1:10​

“But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:”

Your emphasis shows your error in understanding the purpose of the gospel of Christ. Titus, the gospel "cannot" bring life, but it can bring TO LIGHT where there is LIFE! Just as Paul said in Romans 1;16,17.

Romans 1:16​

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”

The gospel of Christ, when preached in truth, it will manifest where there is spiritual life, (also where there is spiritual death as well) since the righteousness of God provided for his elect can only be revealed from a person who has faith, to another person which has the power to have faith through the new man living in those that have been born of God. John 1;12,13.

Baker thinks its unconditional election of hand picked individuals.No.

The word of God does teach unconditional election of grace. See post #227

I teach Bible not the private interpretations of men.

Titus, you may be sincere, that's not for me to judge, but I can assure you that you do not teach the scriptures ~ you teach a religion that started around a little over two hundred years ago. One of the few things I like about your worship is that you folks sing acapella, which I prefer, over a so--called praise band. I do enjoy some limited musical instruments, but in coming together to hear the word of God preach, I prefer none.

 

[Titus]

Titus, "in Christ" is important, and the scriptures clearly tell us how one gets into Christ in more than one sense.
First and foremost, God's elect are chosen by God and given to Jesus Christ to be their surety in order to secured their redemption from sin and condemnation. Ephesians 1:4 that we have given to you more than once is a strong proof text scripture supporting what I'm saying concerning being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. God has loved his elect with an everlasting love, since time did not exist before creation, so, there's never been a time when God has not loved his people and viewed them in Christ.

God loves all creation before the world.
1John 2:2,
- and God is the propitiation for our sins(elect) and not ours only but also for the sins of the whole world(non-elect).

Your understanding of Ephesians 1:3-4 is error. Therefore it does not agree with your conclusions.

2 Timothy 1:10​

“But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:”

Your emphasis shows your error in understanding the purpose of the gospel of Christ. Titus, the gospel "cannot" bring life, but it can bring TO LIGHT where there is LIFE! Just as Paul said in Romans 1;16,17.

You just proved me correct once again.
No light no life no immortality before one hears believes and obeys the gospel.
You teach you are in the light before the gospel.
Your scriptures you referenced proves you only are in the light through the power of the gospel.
You need help with comprehension.

Titus, it was never God's will to save mankind,

John 3:17,
- for God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved

You teach the opposite of the word of God. You scare me.
You're wasting your time. The more you teach the stronger my conviction grows that you are lost.

Be patience with me and I will work my way through your two post

I've been too gracious with you.
I wish to never hear another word of your false teaching.
It angers God and is wearisome to listen to over and over.

Galatians 1:8-9,
- but though we or an angel from heaven Preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you let him be accursed

So, no problem with me changing if I see my self in error, then we must submit to God's word over our own doctrines, that may be hard to let go of.

I found the truth, and it is where I stand today,

You are just as confused as when you began.
Your religion does not come to truth through study!!!!
Its miraculously given directly by the Holy Spirit.
Since you know you can be wrong, shows you don't have faith in what you teach.
You cannot be miraculously guided by the Holy Spirit if you could be mistaken on doctrine.
Where is your common sense?

Also there is not doctrines. There is doctrine, 2 John 3:9-11.

I know I can be wrong because God did not miraculously zap faith into me causing a miraculous understanding of His gospel.
The gospel must be learned through what is written. Christianity is a taught religion.
1John 5:13,
- these things I have  written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God that ye may know that ye have eternal life and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God

Why should I believe you when you dont fully believe what you teach.
Reformed theology doesn't have elect not knowing if they are elect. It is supposed to be a miraculous knowledge that is given. A full assurrity that you know your heart has been miraculously changed.

That's the theology. But here is the reality.
Calvinist really dont even know if they are elect. You cannot know because there is nothing you can do.
That's why all your study is head knowledge. That has nothing to do with the religion you have accepted.
That's why you convince me you dont know the truth because you contradict the very doctrines you are vainly trying to get me to believe in.

There is no assurance in calvinism. The true gospel one can know how to be saved by obeying Jesus' gospel.
In calvinism you literally can do nothing but try and convince yourself you have been saved.
Only on judgment day can you really know you are saved or lost.

In reality it is a religion based on emotion.
If you get a strong enough feeling that the Holy Spirit entered your heart, you just feel so strongly you are saved.

Then by works you prove to yourself you've been transformed.
So without works no evidence of salvation.

This also is a logical contradiction.
You claim no works to be saved but no works and you never were saved.
Therefore the only one going to heaven are those who produce good works.

See even in your religion that denies works to be saved you must produce works or you never were saved.
That logically follows that EVERYONE MUST PRODUCE WORKS TO BE SAVED.
No works no salvation.

Inconsistent, contradictory illogical reasoning all = man made doctrine.

You keep teaching and that contradicts your religion that teaches your teaching plays no part in my election.
ITS UNCONDITIONAL.
Wheres your common sense?

 

[Jim]

The following was taken from Coffman's commentary on Romans

IN CHRIST​

The redemption that is in Christ ...
The expression "in Christ" is, in some ways, the most important in all the Pauline writings, where this expression, or its equivalent, "in whom," "in him," etc., is used no less than 169 times.

What does it mean to be "in Christ"? It means to be in his spiritual body, called the church, the body of which Christ is the head, of which he is declared to be the Savior, and which means having a spiritual relationship to Christ, a relationship of intimate union and identification with him. Redemption is not in faith, or baptism, or in anything else except being "in Christ." Right here is that device contrived by God himself by which a man might truly and legitimately be justified; and it might be looked upon as a divine corporation.

This writer is indebted to John Mackay, former President of Princeton Theological Seminary, for this concept of a divine corporation. He wrote:

Which God designated to give historical fulfillment to the "plan of the mystery." That organ is a community, the community of the "chosen in Christ," of "the destined in love." In the Epistle of the Ephesians, which is supremely interested in the corporate side of Christianity, "The People of God" occupy a central place. In the Old Testament they formed the "Commonwealth of Israel" in the New Testament the Christian Church, "the Body of Christ."

JESUS CHRIST, INCORPORATED

Inherent in the very fact of Christ's having a spiritual body is the concept of its being extra-literal. What kind of body is it? That it is a community of believers on earth is implicit in the fact that the Corinthians had "by one Spirit" all been baptized "into it" (1 Corinthians 12:13). That, in the last analysis, it includes more than the church is plainly set forth in Ephesians where "every family" in heaven and upon earth are a part of it. All the saved of all ages are in it, because only in Christ has salvation ever been possible for anyone. The wonder of this body is that it is truly spoken of as a person, like any other corporation, being, in fact, a fully legal person; hence the propriety of saying that one is "in Christ."

Christ's absolute righteousness cannot be separated from himself and conferred or imputed to others, true righteousness being non-transferable; but it is possible, thanks to the wise provision of God in forming the corporate "in Christ," for all who will to enter that body, becoming one with Christ, fully identifiable with him, and being in fact "in him." All such then share Christ's righteousness. It is truly theirs. This is what Paul means by "redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

The shares of this corporation are the righteousness of Christ. In Christ is a bank of all the righteousness ever accredited to people. All spiritual blessings are categorically said to be in this corporation, "in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3). This means that there are no spiritual blessings anywhere except in Christ.

Who are those who make up Christ's spiritual body, thus being "in Christ"? The New Testament gives the following clues to their identity:

They are those who have been born again. Christ's spiritual body, also called by Christ "the kingdom," cannot be entered except by the new birth (John 3:3-5). They are those who are the "new" creatures. "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature" (2 Corinthians 5:17). And, like every other corporation, Jesus Christ, Incorporated, has a seal. Paul wrote to the Ephesians:

In whom (that is, in Christ), having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13).

Thus, the members of Jesus Christ, Incorporated, are those who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit. They are also the saved, for the author of Acts declared that

The Lord added to them day by day those that were saved, (or as more accurately in the English Revised Version (1885) margin) those that were being saved (Acts 2:47).

The true members of Jesus Christ, Incorporated, are the saved, the sealed with the Holy Spirit, the new born, the new creatures. In a word, they are baptized believers in Christ. The reception of the Holy Spirit of promise, in the first sermon of the gospel age, was made contingent upon the repentance and baptism of those who believed (Acts 2:38), and Paul's mentioning "of promise" in Eph. 1:13, above, shows that he had that in mind. Baptism is an essential element in the new birth, though not the whole of it; and the "newness of life" which belongs to every person "in Christ" follows his being baptized into Christ (Romans 6:4). There can be no marvel, therefore, at the fact of baptism's being mentioned three times in the New Testament as an act of obedience that results in the believer's having a new status, that of being "in Christ." "Baptized into Christ" is found in Rom. 6:3 and Gal. 3:27; and, in 1 Corinthians, it is written: "For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body" (12:13).

From these Holy Scriptures, there comes the certain conclusion, then, that faith is not the sum and all of salvation; it was not even so in the case of Christ whose faith and perfect obedience wrought salvation for all; nor can it be supposed that "faith alone," defined by James as "dead" (James 2:17f), can ever avail anything except the eternal disappointment of them that trust in it.

In that all have sinned, a fact Paul was at great labor to prove, there resides the absolute necessity for every man to die as the penalty of sin, that penalty to be understood not merely as mortal but as eternal death; and God's justice will require that every man ever born on earth pay it, unless exempted through being in Christ. Thus, in the final judgment, only those who are truly "in Christ," members of that entity called the spiritual body, or, as here, Jesus Christ, Incorporated, can truly be exempted, and that not upon the basis of their faith alone, but upon the basis that Christ actually died for them, and that they died "in the person of Christ." That is the thrust of Paul's thought that Christians have been "baptized into his death" (Romans 6:3).

Jesus Christ, Incorporated, is the corporation set up through purchase by the blood of Christ (Acts 20:28), the device God had planned before all time, and the mystery hidden before times eternal, and now made "known through the church" (Ephesians 3:10), and called the "mystery of the gospel" (Ephesians 6:19).

These thoughts are offered in the prayerful hope that people may forsake human theories of salvation, that they might believe and be baptized, as Christ commanded, and give glory to God "in the church" as directed by an apostle (Ephesians 3:21).

Like every figure of speech used to convey eternal truth, this one also results in certain distortions, as, for example, above where Christ is spoken of as being alone entitled to salvation. Of course, he was never lost; but the inheritance of the saints is scripturally noted as that which they shall receive as joint-heirs with Christ. Thus, subject to the limitation of all metaphor, this one is conceived of as a vehicle for vital truth, taught abstractly, throughout the New Testament; and, it is hoped, made a little plainer in this comparison.

Thus, only the righteous, the perfect, the truly faithful and obedient shall be saved; and there will be no basis for any man to boast of having anything such as that, because such is not in man; but it is in Christ, and those in Christ may through absolute identification with Christ truly say that they are perfect, etc. That is what Paul meant when he wrote: "That we may present every man perfect in Christ" (Colossians 1:28).

Thus, it will not be an imputed righteousness, procured by the sinner's faith, but a real, actual righteousness wrought by Christ, that can save such a one as sinful man, and then only if he will die to himself and become utterly one with Christ in Christ. As Paul said of himself:

It is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me; and that life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me (Galatians 2:20).

Before leaving Rom. 3:24, the seeming paradox of how God's grace is free and at the same time all people do not receive it, should be observed. Paul wrote Titus:

For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11,12).

From this, it is plain that God's grace having appeared, and salvation having been brought to all people, refer to the availability of that grace and salvation, and not to their being unconditionally bestowed. From the farmer who reaps down his fields to the fishermen off the Grand Banks, all men receive God's gifts conditionally, and never unconditionally. Thus, it is no surprise that God's grace and salvation came "instructing men," with the necessary deduction that rejection of the instructions was automatically rejection of the grace and salvation. Failure to comply with divinely imposed conditions is forfeiture of all benefits conditionally given.