civic
Well-known member
For the guests and members here is the evidence .
Isaiah 53 the origin of PSA
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
civic
Well-known member
And here is an exhaustive list which proves once again I’m correct .
Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Joh 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Joh 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
Guess Beale "missed these verses"
J.
civic
Well-known member
Nothing penal , no wrath . All you are doing is making my case for me since nothing penal/wrath from Isaiah 53 is once quoted in the NT.
I rest my case. No one can present a case to refute it. Only theories void of facts.
hope this helps !!!
I can-but have lost my appetite edit.
J.
Last edited by a moderator:
I found something interesting. In Isa 53:4 (KJV) it says "smitten of God".
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Upon closer investigation of the LXX there is no mention of God (theos) anywhere in Isa 53:4:
Isa 53:4 (LXX) οὗτος τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν φέρει καὶ περὶ ἡμῶν ὀδυνᾶται, καὶ ἡμεῖς ἐλογισάμεθα αὐτὸν εἶναι ἐν πόνῳ καὶ ἐν πληγῇ καὶ ἐν κακώσει.
In fact, a better translation of Isa 53:4 is the Brenton OT version which says the following:
Isa 53:4 (Brenton) He bears our sins, and is pained for us: yet we accounted him to be in trouble, and in suffering, and in affliction.
Also, there is no "smiting" of Jesus by God anywhere in Mat 8:17:
(Matt 8:17) so that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying, "He took on Himself our weaknesses and bore our sicknesses."
What's going on here? Remember that the LXX was the preferred OT version of the Apostles.
CC: @civic
Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? And to whom is the Zero'a Hashem [Yeshayah 52:10] revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a Shoresh (Root, Shoresh Yishai, Moshiach, Yeshayah 11:10, Sanhedrin93b) out of a dry ground; he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire [Chaggai 2:7] him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and chadal ishim (rejected by men); a man of sorrows, and acquainted with suffering; and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our sufferings, and nasah (carried [Vayikra 16:22; Yeshayah 53:12)] our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, [i.e., like a leper is stricken] smitten of G-d, and afflicted [see verse 8 below].
Can you show me?
J.
Last edited by a moderator:
Waiting for a reply @synergy 2:27 AM here.
Are those Masoretic Text translations? If so then we have a classic case of LXX vs Masoretic Text contest. Be very careful with the Masoretic text. It was compiled when the Jews tried to snuff out at all costs this abhorrent mutation called Christianity. As an example, the "virgin shall conceive" verse (Isa 7:14) was changed to a maiden shall conceive by the Masoretes.
Do you know who compiled the LXX?
Short version-
Who commissioned the Septuagint?
According to tradition, Ptolemy II Philadelphus (the Greek Pharaoh of Egypt) sent seventy-two Hebrew translators—six from each of the Twelve Tribes of Israel—from Jerusalem to Alexandria to translate the Tanakh from Biblical Hebrew into Koine Greek, for inclusion in his library.
An aside-I have shown you Messiah was smitten by YHVH-yes?
The Alexandrian Jews, a few centuries before Christ, when the Jews had not encountered Christianity yet.
The LXX doesn't even mention God in Isa 53:4, let alone God smitting Jesus. So what's going on?
Last edited:
So-if I read you correctly-it was not Jesus in Isaiah 53-yes?
Did you find out who wrote the LXX? If so, you will understand what's going on here.
J.
I'm talking about God the Father smitting Jesus. That's what you're claiming, right? Where is God the Father in Isa 53:4 in the LXX text?
Alexandrian Jews translated it before any threat of any Christianity. The Masoretes compiled their text about 900 years later when Christianity had robbed them of many of their people and was threatening the very core of their Pharisaic religion.
And you didn't answer my question-as I am familiar with the LXX etc. In Isaiah 53 is this speaking of Messiah or not? YisraEL?
מוכה אלוהים, ומכאיב.
Struck by God, and painful.
nâkâh
BDB Definition:
1) to strike, smite, hit, beat, slay, kill
1a) (Niphal) to be stricken or smitten
1b) (Pual) to be stricken or smitten
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to smite, strike, beat, scourge, clap, applaud, give a thrust
1c2) to smite, kill, slay (man or beast)
1c3) to smite, attack, attack and destroy, conquer, subjugate, ravage
1c4) to smite, chastise, send judgment upon, punish, destroy
1d) (Hophal) to be smitten
1d1) to receive a blow
1d2) to be wounded
1d3) to be beaten
1d4) to be (fatally) smitten, be killed, be slain
1d5) to be attacked and captured
1d6) to be smitten (with disease)
1d7) to be blighted (of plants)
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1364
Total KJV Occurrences: 497
Do you read Hebrew?
Last edited:
My opinion is that Isaiah 53 is talking about the Son of God, the Word of God, Jesus Himself.
Now could you answer my question: Why, in your opinion, is there a discrepancy between LXX and the Masoretic Text concerning Isa 53:4?
I answered your question. You don't want to answer mine? That's your call.
Interesting discussion. I'm beginning to see where portions of Christianity went wrong. They followed the Pharisaic-modified Masoretic Text instead of the Apostolic-endorsed LXX.
Have a nice night, my friend.
Diserner
Well-known member
It's well known the Jews began reacting to Christian polemics using the LXX, by either changing the LXX, casting doubt on it, or reaffirming the superiority of the Hebrew. You will notice Isaiah 9:6 is also changed significantly in the LXX, and there are other examples. We have the Great Isaiah Scroll confirming the MT text type in these places hundreds of years earlier.
civic
Well-known member
Yep see below Is 53:4- οὗτος τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν φέρει καὶ περὶ ἡμῶν ὀδυνᾶται, καὶ ἡμεῖς ἐλογισάμεθα αὐτὸν εἶναι ἐν πόνῳ καὶ ἐν πληγῇ καὶ ἐν κακώσει.
The Masoretes had no second thoughts against manipulating the OT word of God. They deliberately changed the word virgin to maiden to throw Christians off the true path. They were certainly a conniving bunch.
