Isaiah 53 the origin of PSA
- Thread starter civic
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Diserner
Well-known member
Okay.
Let's go over 800 years before the Masoretes then.
I will defend Isaiah 53 with just the Qumran scroll.
Diserner
Well-known member
(Chapter 53 1QIsa-a)
Who has believed our report and the arm of YHWH to whom has it been revealed
And he shall come up like a suckling before us and as a root from dry ground
there is no form to him and no beauty to him and in his being seen and there is no appearance that we should desire him.
He is despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrows and knowing grief
and as though hiding faces from him he was despised and we did not esteem him.
Surely our griefs he is bearing and our sorrows he carried them
and we esteemed him beaten and struck by God and afflicted.
and he is wounded for our transgressions, and crushed for our iniquities,
the correction of our peace was upon him and by his wounds he has healed us.
All of us like sheep have wandered each man to his own way we have turned
and YHWH has caused to light on him the iniquity of all of us
He was oppressed and he was afflicted and he did not open his mouth,
as a lamb to the slaughter he is brought and as a ewe before her shearers is made dumb he did not open his mouth.
From prison and from judgment he was taken and his generation who shall discuss it
because he was cut off from the land of the living.
Because from the transgressions of his people a wound was to him
And they gave wicked ones to be his grave and the rich ones in his death
although he worked no violence neither deceit in his mouth
And YHWH was pleased to crush him and He has caused him grief.
If will appoint his soul a sin offering he will see his seed
and he will lengthen his days and the pleasure of YHWH in his hand will advance.
Of the toil of his soul he shall see light and he shall be satisfied
and by his knowledge shall he make righteous even my righteous servant for many and their iniquities he will bear.
Therefore I will apportion to him among the great ones and with the mighty ones he shall divide the spoil
because he laid bare to death his soul and with the transgressors he was numbered,
and he, the sins of many, he bore, and for their transgressions he entreated.
Who has believed our report and the arm of YHWH to whom has it been revealed
And he shall come up like a suckling before us and as a root from dry ground
there is no form to him and no beauty to him and in his being seen and there is no appearance that we should desire him.
He is despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrows and knowing grief
and as though hiding faces from him he was despised and we did not esteem him.
Surely our griefs he is bearing and our sorrows he carried them
and we esteemed him beaten and struck by God and afflicted.
and he is wounded for our transgressions, and crushed for our iniquities,
the correction of our peace was upon him and by his wounds he has healed us.
All of us like sheep have wandered each man to his own way we have turned
and YHWH has caused to light on him the iniquity of all of us
He was oppressed and he was afflicted and he did not open his mouth,
as a lamb to the slaughter he is brought and as a ewe before her shearers is made dumb he did not open his mouth.
From prison and from judgment he was taken and his generation who shall discuss it
because he was cut off from the land of the living.
Because from the transgressions of his people a wound was to him
And they gave wicked ones to be his grave and the rich ones in his death
although he worked no violence neither deceit in his mouth
And YHWH was pleased to crush him and He has caused him grief.
If will appoint his soul a sin offering he will see his seed
and he will lengthen his days and the pleasure of YHWH in his hand will advance.
Of the toil of his soul he shall see light and he shall be satisfied
and by his knowledge shall he make righteous even my righteous servant for many and their iniquities he will bear.
Therefore I will apportion to him among the great ones and with the mighty ones he shall divide the spoil
because he laid bare to death his soul and with the transgressors he was numbered,
and he, the sins of many, he bore, and for their transgressions he entreated.
Qumran Isaiah Scroll Translation
www.ao.net
So what's your analytical opinion on the differences between the LXX and the Qumram Text concerning Isaiah 53:4?
Houston, we have a problem with Isaiah 53:10 also.
The KJV says the following:
Isa 53:10 (KJV) Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
The LXX says the following:
Isa 53:10 (LXX) καὶ κύριος βούλεται καθαρίσαι αὐτὸν τῆς πληγῆς· ἐὰν δῶτε περὶ ἁμαρτίας, ἡ ψυχὴ ὑμῶν ὄψεται σπέρμα μακρόβιον· καὶ βούλεται κύριος ἀφελεῖν
The underlined LXX phrase can be literally translated as such: And the Lord willingly cleanse him his wounds. It sounds awkward in English but the thing to note is that there is no "pleased" in the Greek text. βούλεται denotes volition, not emotion.
civic
Well-known member
And the major problems with PSA proponents is those passages they espouse are nowhere found in the N.T. to support their view on the atonement. Their entire doctrine collapses which is based upon 53:4b and 53:10.
Jesus and the Apostles who quote several times passages from Isaiah 53 left out those 2 for a reason. Since the atonement is central to the N.T. core doctrines its rather strange that neither Jesus nor the Apostles ever once hinted at PSA and especially from the 2 Isaiah 53 passages.
The silence is deafening in the N.T.
They have built a doctrine upon silence.
Exactly! We might have what seems to be a deadlock between LXX and Qumran/MT on several passages so the NT becomes the deciding factor. And the NT is pleased to crush PSA.
Diserner
Well-known member
Well, as best as I can tell, and I will continue researching this, the oldest LXX of Isaiah is around 4th Century CE.
The Qumran Isaiah is around 2nd Century BCE.
That's a difference between them of 600 years, and a complete translation of language. Let's briefly consider both of these things.
Because our data is just this—one can only make deductions—but consider there is tremendous evidence the Jews hated the Christians using the LXX and substantially altered it. Because the Christians would have started using it around the 1st Century CE, there is over 300 years of time for all kinds of changes to happen. There were some ancient compilations and manuscripts of the LXX that were lost in ancient fires, and it is a great loss that we don't have them to compare. But we must acknowledge there was the strongest motivations and the amplest times for changes to occur.
Now, although it is true that, because all manuscript transmission creates errors, even with the best of intentions, due to human error, accidents and such, and because of this, the LXX does preserve a better reading than the MT in many places, we must not make overly simplistic conclusions from this. The LXX exhibits a tremendous amount of very clear errors of all kinds, both not understanding grammar and vocabulary, and also clear intentional changes motivated by other things such as doctrine and culture. This is literally a work once removed from its original language into an entirely new language, and for that reason alone it must never be considered superior. There are reasons the NT uses it often (and the NT does not exclusively use the LXX, it also uses the MT, and sometimes what looks like neither), that are not just better accuracy.
I personally would have no reason to consider this a superior reading, and can clearly see several reasons that would motivate a change. Considering the above two reasons, one can see why the majority of modern translations prefer the MT here.
I don't personally see evidence of your distrust of the Masoretes. Of all manuscript copiers, they seem to show the most reverence and regard for accurately copying the text. They would literally count up the letters and if they were one off, would burn the entire manuscript, and many such things.
civic
Well-known member
Bingo- The NEW always does that with the old and interprets its real meaning and intention.
Diserner
Well-known member
As civic has pointed out though, this verse is not quoted in the NT.
So there is in fact no real reason to prefer the LXX here.
Diserner
Well-known member
Is it your view that every OT truth must be repeated in the NT to be true?
That seems very ad hoc, a rule just made up for supporting an aberrant view.
But you just explain away clear NT passages on PSA, so you would not see them even if they were there.
Like Jews refuse to see Christ in the OT.
"Christ SUFFERED for sins, the just FOR the unjust, to bring us to God."
Do you know how much work and explaining away it takes to make that not about PSA?
There is no silence at all.
civic
Well-known member
They are no PSA passages in the N.T.
Gods wrath on the Son is imaginary, invisible, nowhere to be found or taught in the N.T. by Jesus or His Apostles.
I stand on solid ground with my view. I don't have to make up words and ideas that are absent in the N.T.
Suffering is not WRATH- thats conflating and equivocating.
hope this helps !!!
Diserner
Well-known member
Repeating nonsense and lies debunked a hundred times, doesn't make them more true, lol.
A Jew would say the exact same thing about Christ in the OT.
So suffering for sins is not wrath.
Where is that in the Bible?
What is it then?
A picnic?
Diserner
Well-known member
I have found a 3rd century Isaiah LXX, but sadly it does not contain chapter 53.
Manuscript Rahlfs 965 - CSNTM
manuscripts.csntm.org
civic
Well-known member
nope if I have an affair and my wife divorces me for my sin its not wrath from God but consequences of my sins.
next
civic
Well-known member
ahh what would you believe without Isaiah 53, might as well not even have a bible without that chapter right ?
PSA down the drain call roto rooter.
Diserner
Well-known member
That kind of disrespect for God's word is not something I can permit.
I will not engage with mocking God's Word, sorry.
The fact remains that the Hellenized Jews did make extensive use of the LXX which produced the Early Christian doctrines of Atonement. Anselm's satisfaction theory of atonement only appeared a thousand years after.
Nobody said that the MT is entirely wrong. I'm focusing in on verses that contain significant doctrinal differences. There has to be a decision made and decisions were made by the Apostles and then the Hellenized Christians who followed suit. They overwhelmingly chose the LXX.
This is where election comes in. Do you believe that God had the foresight to disperse the Hellenized Jews, who naturally use the LXX, across the Roman Empire so that His word would gain an immediate foothold across the Empire through them?
(1 Pet 1:1) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect sojourners of the Dispersion of Pontus, of Galatia, of Cappadocia, of Asia, and of Bithynia,
Thank you for your personal opinions.
Wrangler
Well-known member
That's nasty! Do you praise the lord with that mouth?
Where do you get the idea that a post in an online forum must be scholarly? Many books are not even 'scholarly,' like Midnight In the Garden of Good and Evil. Re-read and understand the folly of judging others from Rom 14:1, 13; Jam 4:11-12.
Johann, there are plenty of reasons to condemn you. See above.
Still, the reason I go to on line forums is to have a conversation. Anyone can use their search engine and read up on what has already been written on a topic. Even pasting lengthy Bible verses is usually unnecessary because odds are people prefer a different translation anyway.
I'm looking forward to @civic's executive summary on the topic.
You are pedantic. Not too much humility. Not too Christ like.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Great!Thanks @Wrangler I have a mens saturday morning discipleship group I lead and when I get home I will work on the summary.
I've written 100's of technical papers in my career. Some are very complicated. Management early on requested on some of the larger papers that I write an Executive Summary. I adopted the practice as my standard approach. And I almost always write it last, after I've waded through all the details. Obviously, you have put a lot of work into what you've written.
I realize your paper is not technical but I thought I'd share my standard template, which employs a WBS. A WBS stands for Work Breakdown Structure that connects related work in increasingly greater detail. A couple of common examples, more than defining terms, it specifies what is meant by the phrases "make breakfast" or "do the laundry" in your specific application.
I. Make Breakfast
A. Clean coffee pot & make more coffee.
B. Take out the frying pans and turn the heat on.
C. Take food out of fridge.
D. Cut food as appropriate
E. Cook food
F. Toast bread, then butter or apply fruit jam.
II. Do The Laundry
A. Strip the beds of the linen.
B. Put laundry in washing machine
C. Add soap and fabric softener
D. Turn on
E. When completed, put in dryer
F. When completed fold laundry and put away.
As it pertains to your jargon, I suspect a similar WBS would be helpful to the reader. I am a "Big picture" guy and seeing the logic rolled up to high level categories puts the information into an order that I can effectively process. With that said, my technical template:I. INTRODUCTION
A. Purpose
B. Scope
C. Background
II. PROCEDURE
A. Equipment
B. Materials
C. Process
III. ANALYSIS (DISCUSSION OF RESULTS)
-- tends to be the meat of the report, ~80% of the whole paper.
IV. CONCLUSIONS
V. RECOMMENDATIONS
With more experience, I've recognized SCOPE and ANALYSIS tend to be the most important sections. Sometimes I have appendices of data, references, analytical techniques, etc. When the tool of analysis used is new to the company, that is when the Background section gets a lot of focus. Other times, I exclude the section completely. It all depends on who the audience is and what their familiarity is with material.
This where what you have written loses me. I don't know why you are writing what you are or who you anticipate your audience to be. It is said with speeches to know your audience. The same with a paper or in your case, a book. Let me give you an example.
One time, in submitting my paper for approval, an executive read the 1st line of the Purpose and ordered the work of internally publishing to stop. The purpose was to address a customer related problem. The Executive was privy to the fact we decided to end our relationship with that customer.
My boss pushed back. It's not the customer that is the value to publishing the paper, it is in communicating the tool available in the company for problem solving similar type problems.
Hope this helps!
