Is persuasion even necessary in Calvinism ?

[Rockson]

What Im testifying to is the Gospel, you can call it what you want while you reject it

Your message to the world is that God beats people up in a million different ways not caring about their emotions or mental state. All things occur to you for God's glory or for some unknown need he has to see people in despair with no hope. Then you turn around and say you can love a God like that which I don't believe a word of it and it's impossible that you can do so. Sorry but Calvinists are all bluffing. Not sure why you want to do that year after year. Just be honest and admit YOU CAN'T LOVE a god like that. Then renew your mind to just what the true character of God is like.

 

[civic]

Your message to the world is that God beats people up in a million different ways not caring about their emotions or mental state. All things occur to you for God's glory or for some unknown need he has to see people in despair with no hope. Then you turn around and say you can love a God like that which I don't believe a word of it and it's impossible that you can do so. Sorry but Calvinists are all bluffing. Not sure why you want to do that year after year. Just be honest and admit YOU CAN'T LOVE a god like that. Then renew your mind to just what the true character of God is like.

Yes it's anti-biblical. Could you imaging Jesus teaching that stuff. Yikes.

 

[brightfame52]

Your message to the world is that God beats people up in a million different ways not caring about their emotions or mental state. All things occur to you for God's glory or for some unknown need he has to see people in despair with no hope. Then you turn around and say you can love a God like that which I don't believe a word of it and it's impossible that you can do so. Sorry but Calvinists are all bluffing. Not sure why you want to do that year after year. Just be honest and admit YOU CAN'T LOVE a god like that. Then renew your mind to just what the true character of God is like.

What Im testifying to is the Gospel, you can call it what you want while you reject it

 

[civic]

What Im testifying to is the Gospel, you can call it what you want while you reject it

no tulip is not the gospel- not a single point of tulips 5 is ever mentioned by Jesus or the Apostles as the gospel.

In fact they tech just the opposite of tulip when sharing the gospel message.

 

[brightfame52]

no tulip is not the gospel- not a single point of tulips 5 is ever mentioned by Jesus or the Apostles as the gospel.

In fact they tech just the opposite of tulip when sharing the gospel message.

What Im testifying to is the Gospel, you can call it what you want while you reject it

 

[civic]

What Im testifying to is the Gospel, you can call it what you want while you reject it

no you testify to Calvin.

next

 

[brightfame52]

no you testify to Calvin.

next

What Im testifying to is the Gospel, you can call it what you want while you reject it

 

[TomL]

yes it does I just showed how ! Again, its simple word study, the word draw in the greek helkō:
is an derivative of the word haireō:

1. to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
2. to choose by vote, elect to office

This word is used to choose to salvation 2 Thess 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Thats who God chooses to believe in Christ, He draws them to Christ

Ps 65:4

4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Causeth to approach, thats drawing, and its for thm God chooses

Helko is not haireō:


εἵλκυσεν. Hebrew equivalent: משׁך (1).
Verb Usage
1. to draw (from container)† — to bring, take, or pull out of a container or from under a cover. See also σπάω.
Jn 18:10 Σίμων οὖν Πέτρος ἔχων μάχαιραν εἵλκυσεν αὐτὴν
Jn 21:6 οὐκέτι αὐτὸ ἑλκύσαι
Jn 21:11 καὶ εἵλκυσεν τὸ δίκτυον εἰς τὴν γῆν μεστὸν ἰχθύων μεγάλων
2. to seize away ⇔ haul† — to lead someone away by force against their will; conceived of as drawing a heavy object out of something with great effort. See also ἕλκω.
Ac 16:19 εἵλκυσαν εἰς τὴν ἀγορὰν ἐπὶ τοὺς ἄρχοντας,
3. to attract powerfully ⇔ haul† — to attract powerfully, conceived of as drawing a heavy object out of something with great effort.
Jn 6:44 ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν,
Jn 12:32 κἀγὼ ἐὰν ὑψωθῶ ἐκ τῆς γῆς, πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν.
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).



ἑλκύω s. ἕλκω fut. and aor.


ἕλκω impf. εἷλκον; fut. ἑλκύσω; 1 aor. εἵλκυσα; for the forms w.-υ-s. Mlt.-H. 236; Bl-D. §101 p. 45 (Hom.+; inscr., pap., LXX, Joseph.) drag, draw.
1. trans.—a. lit. τὶ someth. a sword (Soph., Ant. 1233; Libanius, Or. 13 p. 73, 5 F. ξίφος) J 18:10; haul a net 21:6, 11; τινά (Diod. S. 34+35 fgm. 2, 14 τινὰ εὒς; Achilles Tat. 7, 15, 4 εἷλκόν με εἰς τὸ δεσμωτήριον; Jos., Bell. 1, 591 τινὰ εἰς.—Also Clearchus, fgm. 73; Diod. S. 14, 5, 3 ἕ. τινὰ ἐπὶ τὸν θάνατον) ἔξω τ. ἱεροῦ drag someone out of the temple Ac 21:30; εἰς τ. ἀγορὰν ἐπὶ τ. ἄρχοντας 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια hale into court Js 2:6 (Herodas 5, 59 ἕ. τινὰ εἰς τὰς ἀνάγκας=to punishment). οἱ ἕλκοντες ἡμᾶς LJ 2:3 is expanded by Dssm. w. εἰς τὰ κριτήρια; differently by others. Actually nothing need be supplied, since ἕ. τινά means pull or tug someone back and forth, mistreat someone (Libanius, Or. 58 p. 183, 20 F. ἕλκων κάπηλον; cf. Jos., Bell. 1, 338: εἷλκεν τοὺς ἔνδοθεν). Of stones ἐκ τοῦ βυθοῦ ἑλκομένους which were dragged out of the deep Hv 3, 2, 6; 3, 5, 2.
b. fig. of the pull on man’s inner life (Pla., Phaedr. 238A; Aelian, Nat. An. 4, 13; Porphyr., Marc. 16 μόνη ἡ ἀρετὴ τ. ψυχὴν ἄνω ἕλκει καὶ πρὸς τὸ συγγενές; Jer 38:3; SSol 1:4; 4 Macc 14:13; 15:11; Jos., Ant. 15, 27)draw, attract J 6:44. ἕλκ. πρός with acc. (Hierocles 25 p. 477 it is said of God ἐλκύσαι πρὸς τὴν ἀλήθειαν τοὺς ἀνθρώπους): πρὸς ἐμαυτόν 12:32.


William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 251.

Helko does not mean to chose

BTW in the greek Septuagint at Psa 65:4 the word for chose is eklegomai

Psalm 64:5 (Logos LXX) — 5 μακάριος ὃν ἐξελέξω καὶ προσελάβου, κατασκηνώσει ἐν ταῖς αὐλαῖς σου. πλησθησόμεθα ἐν τοῖς ἀγαθοῖς τοῦ οἴκου σου, ἅγιος ὁ ναός σου, θαυμαστὸς ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ.

 

[Presby02]

We are to preach the truth, and the truth can be persuasive if God opens the ears of the hearers.

Exactly. Persuasion is one of the many means God may use. Just another silly attack easily repulsed.

 

[Presby02]

Helko is not haireō:


εἵλκυσεν. Hebrew equivalent: משׁך (1).
Verb Usage
1. to draw (from container)† — to bring, take, or pull out of a container or from under a cover. See also σπάω.
Jn 18:10 Σίμων οὖν Πέτρος ἔχων μάχαιραν εἵλκυσεν αὐτὴν
Jn 21:6 οὐκέτι αὐτὸ ἑλκύσαι
Jn 21:11 καὶ εἵλκυσεν τὸ δίκτυον εἰς τὴν γῆν μεστὸν ἰχθύων μεγάλων
2. to seize away ⇔ haul† — to lead someone away by force against their will; conceived of as drawing a heavy object out of something with great effort. See also ἕλκω.
Ac 16:19 εἵλκυσαν εἰς τὴν ἀγορὰν ἐπὶ τοὺς ἄρχοντας,
3. to attract powerfully ⇔ haul† — to attract powerfully, conceived of as drawing a heavy object out of something with great effort.
Jn 6:44 ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν,
Jn 12:32 κἀγὼ ἐὰν ὑψωθῶ ἐκ τῆς γῆς, πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν.
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).



ἑλκύω s. ἕλκω fut. and aor.


ἕλκω impf. εἷλκον; fut. ἑλκύσω; 1 aor. εἵλκυσα; for the forms w.-υ-s. Mlt.-H. 236; Bl-D. §101 p. 45 (Hom.+; inscr., pap., LXX, Joseph.) drag, draw.
1. trans.—a. lit. τὶ someth. a sword (Soph., Ant. 1233; Libanius, Or. 13 p. 73, 5 F. ξίφος) J 18:10; haul a net 21:6, 11; τινά (Diod. S. 34+35 fgm. 2, 14 τινὰ εὒς; Achilles Tat. 7, 15, 4 εἷλκόν με εἰς τὸ δεσμωτήριον; Jos., Bell. 1, 591 τινὰ εἰς.—Also Clearchus, fgm. 73; Diod. S. 14, 5, 3 ἕ. τινὰ ἐπὶ τὸν θάνατον) ἔξω τ. ἱεροῦ drag someone out of the temple Ac 21:30; εἰς τ. ἀγορὰν ἐπὶ τ. ἄρχοντας 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια hale into court Js 2:6 (Herodas 5, 59 ἕ. τινὰ εἰς τὰς ἀνάγκας=to punishment). οἱ ἕλκοντες ἡμᾶς LJ 2:3 is expanded by Dssm. w. εἰς τὰ κριτήρια; differently by others. Actually nothing need be supplied, since ἕ. τινά means pull or tug someone back and forth, mistreat someone (Libanius, Or. 58 p. 183, 20 F. ἕλκων κάπηλον; cf. Jos., Bell. 1, 338: εἷλκεν τοὺς ἔνδοθεν). Of stones ἐκ τοῦ βυθοῦ ἑλκομένους which were dragged out of the deep Hv 3, 2, 6; 3, 5, 2.
b. fig. of the pull on man’s inner life (Pla., Phaedr. 238A; Aelian, Nat. An. 4, 13; Porphyr., Marc. 16 μόνη ἡ ἀρετὴ τ. ψυχὴν ἄνω ἕλκει καὶ πρὸς τὸ συγγενές; Jer 38:3; SSol 1:4; 4 Macc 14:13; 15:11; Jos., Ant. 15, 27)draw, attract J 6:44. ἕλκ. πρός with acc. (Hierocles 25 p. 477 it is said of God ἐλκύσαι πρὸς τὴν ἀλήθειαν τοὺς ἀνθρώπους): πρὸς ἐμαυτόν 12:32.


William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 251.

Helko does not mean to chose

BTW in the greek Septuagint at Psa 65:4 the word for chose is eklegomai

Psalm 64:5 (Logos LXX) — 5 μακάριος ὃν ἐξελέξω καὶ προσελάβου, κατασκηνώσει ἐν ταῖς αὐλαῖς σου. πλησθησόμεθα ἐν τοῖς ἀγαθοῖς τοῦ οἴκου σου, ἅγιος ὁ ναός σου, θαυμαστὸς ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ.

God chose who He would draw no?

 

[brightfame52]

Helko is not haireō:


εἵλκυσεν. Hebrew equivalent: משׁך (1).
Verb Usage
1. to draw (from container)† — to bring, take, or pull out of a container or from under a cover. See also σπάω.
Jn 18:10 Σίμων οὖν Πέτρος ἔχων μάχαιραν εἵλκυσεν αὐτὴν
Jn 21:6 οὐκέτι αὐτὸ ἑλκύσαι
Jn 21:11 καὶ εἵλκυσεν τὸ δίκτυον εἰς τὴν γῆν μεστὸν ἰχθύων μεγάλων
2. to seize away ⇔ haul† — to lead someone away by force against their will; conceived of as drawing a heavy object out of something with great effort. See also ἕλκω.
Ac 16:19 εἵλκυσαν εἰς τὴν ἀγορὰν ἐπὶ τοὺς ἄρχοντας,
3. to attract powerfully ⇔ haul† — to attract powerfully, conceived of as drawing a heavy object out of something with great effort.
Jn 6:44 ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν,
Jn 12:32 κἀγὼ ἐὰν ὑψωθῶ ἐκ τῆς γῆς, πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν.
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).



ἑλκύω s. ἕλκω fut. and aor.


ἕλκω impf. εἷλκον; fut. ἑλκύσω; 1 aor. εἵλκυσα; for the forms w.-υ-s. Mlt.-H. 236; Bl-D. §101 p. 45 (Hom.+; inscr., pap., LXX, Joseph.) drag, draw.
1. trans.—a. lit. τὶ someth. a sword (Soph., Ant. 1233; Libanius, Or. 13 p. 73, 5 F. ξίφος) J 18:10; haul a net 21:6, 11; τινά (Diod. S. 34+35 fgm. 2, 14 τινὰ εὒς; Achilles Tat. 7, 15, 4 εἷλκόν με εἰς τὸ δεσμωτήριον; Jos., Bell. 1, 591 τινὰ εἰς.—Also Clearchus, fgm. 73; Diod. S. 14, 5, 3 ἕ. τινὰ ἐπὶ τὸν θάνατον) ἔξω τ. ἱεροῦ drag someone out of the temple Ac 21:30; εἰς τ. ἀγορὰν ἐπὶ τ. ἄρχοντας 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια hale into court Js 2:6 (Herodas 5, 59 ἕ. τινὰ εἰς τὰς ἀνάγκας=to punishment). οἱ ἕλκοντες ἡμᾶς LJ 2:3 is expanded by Dssm. w. εἰς τὰ κριτήρια; differently by others. Actually nothing need be supplied, since ἕ. τινά means pull or tug someone back and forth, mistreat someone (Libanius, Or. 58 p. 183, 20 F. ἕλκων κάπηλον; cf. Jos., Bell. 1, 338: εἷλκεν τοὺς ἔνδοθεν). Of stones ἐκ τοῦ βυθοῦ ἑλκομένους which were dragged out of the deep Hv 3, 2, 6; 3, 5, 2.
b. fig. of the pull on man’s inner life (Pla., Phaedr. 238A; Aelian, Nat. An. 4, 13; Porphyr., Marc. 16 μόνη ἡ ἀρετὴ τ. ψυχὴν ἄνω ἕλκει καὶ πρὸς τὸ συγγενές; Jer 38:3; SSol 1:4; 4 Macc 14:13; 15:11; Jos., Ant. 15, 27)draw, attract J 6:44. ἕλκ. πρός with acc. (Hierocles 25 p. 477 it is said of God ἐλκύσαι πρὸς τὴν ἀλήθειαν τοὺς ἀνθρώπους): πρὸς ἐμαυτόν 12:32.


William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 251.

Helko does not mean to chose

BTW in the greek Septuagint at Psa 65:4 the word for chose is eklegomai

Psalm 64:5 (Logos LXX) — 5 μακάριος ὃν ἐξελέξω καὶ προσελάβου, κατασκηνώσει ἐν ταῖς αὐλαῖς σου. πλησθησόμεθα ἐν τοῖς ἀγαθοῖς τοῦ οἴκου σου, ἅγιος ὁ ναός σου, θαυμαστὸς ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ.

yes it does I just showed how ! Again, its simple word study, the word draw in the greek helkō:
is an derivative of the word haireō:

1. to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
2. to choose by vote, elect to office

This word is used to choose to salvation 2 Thess 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Thats who God chooses to believe in Christ, He draws them to Christ

Ps 65:4

4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Causeth to approach, thats drawing, and its for thm God chooses

Barnes on Ps 65:4

Blessed is the man whom thou choosest - That is, Happy is the man; or, "Oh, the happiness of the man whom thou dost thus permit to approach thee." The construction here in the Hebrew is the same as in Psalm 1:1. See the notes at that passage. The word choosest refers to the fact that true piety regards all such blessings as the result of the divine favor; the fruit of his electing grace and love. Compare the notes at Ephesians 1:3-4; notes at 1 Peter 1:2-3. We approach God with confidence, with the spirit of true worshippers, with the spirit of his children, only as he inclines us to him, and calls us to partake of his favor. Compare John 6:44.

 

[TomL]

yes it does I just showed how ! Again, its simple word study, the word draw in the greek helkō:
is an derivative of the word haireō:

1. to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
2. to choose by vote, elect to office

This word is used to choose to salvation 2 Thess 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Thats who God chooses to believe in Christ, He draws them to Christ

Ps 65:4

4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Causeth to approach, thats drawing, and its for thm God chooses

Barnes on Ps 65:4

Sorry Helko is not haireo

and helko is not used at Psa 65:4

Psalm 64:5 (Logos LXX) — 5 μακάριος ὃν ἐξελέξω καὶ προσελάβου, κατασκηνώσει ἐν ταῖς αὐλαῖς σου. πλησθησόμεθα ἐν τοῖς ἀγαθοῖς τοῦ οἴκου σου, ἅγιος ὁ ναός σου, θαυμαστὸς ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ.

The word used has a root eklogomai

Nor is Helko used at 2Th 2:13

brethren

beloved

of

the

Lord

,

because

God

hath

i

from

the

ἀδελφοὶ10

ἠγαπημένοι11

ὑπὸ12

→

Κυρίου13

ὅτι14

ὁ17 Θεὸς18

►15

ἀπʼ19

→

adelphoi

ēgapēmenoi

hypo

Kyriou

hoti

ho Theos

apʼ

ἀδελφός

ἀγαπάω

ὑπό

κύριος

ὅτι

ὁ θεός

ἀπό

αδελφος

αγαπαω

υπο

κυριος

οτι

ο θεος

απο

NVPM

VRPP-PNM

P

NGSM

CAZ

DNSM NNSM

P

80

25

5259

2962

3754

3588 2316

575

beginning		chosen
αρχῆς20		εἵλετο15
archēs		heileto
ἀρχή		αἱρέομαι
αρχω		αιρεω
NGSF		VAMI3S
746		138

The Holy Bible: King James Version (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version.; Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 2 Th 2:13.

And you have provided nothing at all to show Helko is derived from Heareo

 

[TomL]

God chose who He would draw no?

Helko draw does not mean to chose

 

[TomL]

Exactly. Persuasion is one of the many means God may use. Just another silly attack easily repulsed.

Seems Paul and others used persuasion and men believed based on it

 

[Presby02]

Seems Paul and others used persuasion and men believed based on it

So

 

[Presby02]

Helko draw does not mean to chose

Does God choose who to draw yes or no?

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry Helko is not haireo

and helko is not used at Psa 65:4

Psalm 64:5 (Logos LXX) — 5 μακάριος ὃν ἐξελέξω καὶ προσελάβου, κατασκηνώσει ἐν ταῖς αὐλαῖς σου. πλησθησόμεθα ἐν τοῖς ἀγαθοῖς τοῦ οἴκου σου, ἅγιος ὁ ναός σου, θαυμαστὸς ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ.

The word used has a root eklogomai

Nor is Helko used at 2Th 2:13

brethren

beloved

of

the

Lord

,

because

God

hath

i

from

the

ἀδελφοὶ10

ἠγαπημένοι11

ὑπὸ12

→

Κυρίου13

ὅτι14

ὁ17 Θεὸς18

►15

ἀπʼ19

→

adelphoi

ēgapēmenoi

hypo

Kyriou

hoti

ho Theos

apʼ

ἀδελφός

ἀγαπάω

ὑπό

κύριος

ὅτι

ὁ θεός

ἀπό

αδελφος

αγαπαω

υπο

κυριος

οτι

ο θεος

απο

NVPM

VRPP-PNM

P

NGSM

CAZ

DNSM NNSM

P

80

25

5259

2962

3754

3588 2316

575

beginning		chosen
αρχῆς20		εἵλετο15
archēs		heileto
ἀρχή		αἱρέομαι
αρχω		αιρεω
NGSF		VAMI3S
746		138

The Holy Bible: King James Version (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version.; Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 2 Th 2:13.

And you have provided nothing at all to show Helko is derived from Heareo

yes it does I just showed how ! Again, its simple word study, the word draw in the greek helkō:
is an derivative of the word haireō:

1. to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
2. to choose by vote, elect to office

This word is used to choose to salvation 2 Thess 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Thats who God chooses to believe in Christ, He draws them to Christ

Ps 65:4

4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Causeth to approach, thats drawing, and its for thm God chooses

Barnes on Ps 65:4

Blessed is the man whom thou choosest - That is, Happy is the man; or, "Oh, the happiness of the man whom thou dost thus permit to approach thee." The construction here in the Hebrew is the same as in Psalm 1:1. See the notes at that passage. The word choosest refers to the fact that true piety regards all such blessings as the result of the divine favor; the fruit of his electing grace and love. Compare the notes at Ephesians 1:3-4; notes at 1 Peter 1:2-3. We approach God with confidence, with the spirit of true worshippers, with the spirit of his children, only as he inclines us to him, and calls us to partake of his favor. Compare John 6:44.

 

[TomL]

Does God choose who to draw yes or no?

God draws those who hear and learn from him

not men unconditionally selected

 

[Presby02]

God draws those who hear and learn from him

not men unconditionally selected

Said nowhere in scripture. Hearing and learning is how they are drawn, not why. FAIL

 

[TomL]

Said nowhere in scripture. Hearing and learning is how they are drawn, not why. FAIL

Duh

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Wrong again